m1 Apple M1 = the rest of us are living in the stone age!?

[gal-m]

10 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

5nm which amd is using for zen 4 also 

Any ideas on when Zen 4 is coming out?

Was thinking of getting a 5900X next summer (2021), but I'm not so sure anymore.. + the platform is dead (end of lifecycle).

[spartaman64]

Just now, gal-m said:

Any ideas on when Zen 4 is coming out?

Was thinking of getting a 5900X next summer (2021), but I'm not so sure anymore.. + the platform is dead (end of lifecycle).

your guess is probably as good as mine

[whm1974]

20 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Without flashing black, not even for an instant?

How is that even a Perk? The display flashing black is barely noticeable, and nothing to get upset about.

[saltycaramel]

35 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

How is that even a Perk? The display flashing black is barely noticeable, and nothing to get upset about.

Changing resolution manually, I’m with you, it’s a rare occurrence anyway. Still cool. 

 

Changing resolution or main display when docking to a monitor, that can get annoying. 

[GDRRiley]

56 minutes ago, gal-m said:

Any ideas on when Zen 4 is coming out?

mid to late 2022. 2021 should be all zen3

[Blade of Grass]

1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

imo much of the m1 advantage comes from being on tsmc 5nm which amd is using for zen 4 also 

5950x single thread R23: 1625

M1 single thread R23: 1520

Difference: 7%

 

5950x single core power usage: 20w

M1 single core power usage: 6w

Difference: 233%

 

5950x score/w: 81.25

M1 score/w: 253

Difference: 211%

 

Data from: 

M1 Power:  https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested

5950x Power: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/8

Performance: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-apple-m1-a-seriously-fast-x86-competitor/

 

You think 1 generation of process is responsible for this? Really? 

 

EDIT: 

Just to be clear, from TSMC themselves 

15% faster, 30% less power, going 7nm to 5nm. 

Lets say all else remains equal:

5950x:

1625 * 1.15 = 1868

20w * 0.7 = 14

score/w = 133

Difference: 90%

 

Let's say they use N5P instead:

1625 * 1.15 * 1.05 = 1962

20w * 0.7 * 0.9 = 12.6

score/w = 155

Difference: 63%

 

So even if AMD goes ahead a subprocess, they still have to close a 63% perf/W power difference with their architecture/clocks. 

[A51UK]

On 12/2/2020 at 5:37 PM, Lord Vile said:

-Sigh- Base 27" iMac costs £1800 This is the same spec~ with no OS:

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel Core i5-10600 3.3 GHz 6-Core Processor	£206.99 @ Amazon UK
Motherboard	MSI MEG Z490I UNIFY Mini ITX LGA1200 Motherboard	£199.99 @ Amazon UK
Memory	Patriot Signature Premium 8 GB (2 x 4 GB) DDR4-2666 CL19 Memory	£40.99 @ Amazon UK
Storage	Patriot VPN100 256 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	£41.99 @ Amazon UK
Video Card	XFX Radeon RX 560 - 1024 4 GB Video Card	£135.68 @ Amazon UK
Case	Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L MicroATX Mini Tower Case	£41.90 @ AWD-IT
Power Supply	SeaSonic CORE GM 500 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply	£65.47 @ Scan.co.uk
Monitor	LG 31MU97Z-B 31.0" 4096x2160 60 Hz Monitor	£1179.00
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	£1912.01
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-02 17:37 GMT+0000

 

I did a little price up, PC price point of £1800 with the OS. 

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor	£461.51 @ Overclockers.co.uk
CPU Cooler	Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler	£29.77 @ Amazon UK
Motherboard	Gigabyte B550M DS3H Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard	£86.65 @ Amazon UK
Memory	G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory	£122.97 @ Amazon UK
Storage	Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive	£99.90 @ Amazon UK
Video Card	MSI GeForce RTX 3070 8 GB VENTUS 2X OC Video Card	£572.95 @ Overclockers.co.uk
Case	Corsair SPEC-DELTA RGB ATX Mid Tower Case	£60.46 @ Amazon UK
Power Supply	EVGA BQ 500 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply	£86.09 @ Amazon UK
Operating System	Microsoft Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	£89.95 @ AWD-IT
Monitor	LG 24MK400H-B 24.0" 1920x1080 75 Hz Monitor	£91.88 @ More Computers
Monitor	LG 24MK400H-B 24.0" 1920x1080 75 Hz Monitor	£91.88 @ More Computers
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	£1794.01
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-04 20:30 GMT+0000

 

 

 

The Mac still come up cost far more for lot less but the Mac does come with 5K Monitor, if you really need a 5K Monitor the Mac may come out cheaper. Myself I care more about performance then have no need for a 5K or 4K Monitor for now.  Getting someone build the PC cost about £50, or do it yourself for free. 

 

 

 

[spartaman64]

47 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

5950x single thread R23: 1625

M1 single thread R23: 1520

Difference: 7%

 

5950x single core power usage: 20w

M1 single core power usage: 6w

Difference: 233%

 

5950x score/w: 81.25

M1 score/w: 253

Difference: 211%

 

Data from: 

M1 Power:  https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested

5950x Power: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/8

Performance: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-apple-m1-a-seriously-fast-x86-competitor/

 

You think 1 generation of process is responsible for this? Really? 

 

EDIT: 

Just to be clear, from TSMC themselves 

15% faster, 30% less power, going 7nm to 5nm. 

Lets say all else remains equal:

5950x:

1625 * 1.15 = 1868

20w * 0.7 = 14

score/w = 133

Difference: 90%

 

Let's say they use N5P instead:

1625 * 1.15 * 1.05 = 1962

20w * 0.7 * 0.9 = 12.6

score/w = 155

Difference: 63%

 

So even if AMD goes ahead a subprocess, they still have to close a 63% perf/W power difference with their architecture/clocks. 

performance per watt doesnt matter for desktops and you can always drop clocks and voltage by a little to boost performance per watt

[GDRRiley]

50 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

5950x single thread R23: 1625

M1 single thread R23: 1520

Difference: 7%

 

5950x single core power usage: 20w

M1 single core power usage: 6w

Difference: 233%

 

5950x score/w: 81.25

M1 score/w: 253

Difference: 211%

 

Data from: 

M1 Power:  https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested

5950x Power: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/8

Performance: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-apple-m1-a-seriously-fast-x86-competitor/

mobile 4000 does somewhere right around 1300 at 10-25W for all core

Zen3 5000 APUs will beat the m1 in almost every way, and that is still on 7nm. 5nm is biggest reason power is down.

[Blade of Grass]

27 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

mobile 4000 does somewhere right around 1300 at 10-25W for all core

Zen3 5000 APUs will beat the m1 in almost every way, and that is still on 7nm. 5nm is biggest reason power is down.

The ars data shows it ~10% below that 

Spoiler

 

It still uses significantly more power per core.

Spoiler

10w vs 5w single core

 

Ignoring power differences, they still need to close a 29% performance gap, which I agree is definitely it's possible (especially considering the process benefits), but including the power difference, I'm not too sure they can eek out and win in perf/w. 

 

Obviously we won't be able to tell until the zen 3 mobile CPUs come out for sure, but I think AMD does have a bit of a challenge. 

 

@spartaman64 perf/w might not be a super important desktop computer metric (well, at least for people with ATX cases, SFF people might disagree), but there are other sizeable markets where efficiency is important--mobile devices and servers. In general, I think it's still a worthwhile metric if you consider it in the right context. 

 

EDIT: I think you were actually just saying that it's hard to compare the efficiency of a desktop CPU to a mobile one, which you're probably right about. 

[spartaman64]

Just now, Blade of Grass said:

 

 

@spartaman64 perf/w might not be a super important desktop computer metric (well, at least for people with ATX cases, SFF people might disagree), but there are other sizeable markets where efficiency is important--mobile devices and servers. In general, I think it's still a worthwhile metric if you consider it in the right context. 

yeah thats why i mentioned the supercomputer/server market but x86 is still overwhelmingly more popular and arm supercomputers are not really the most efficient ones. the gpu focused ones are

[GDRRiley]

17 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

The ars data shows it ~10% below that

 

 

Ignoring power differences, they still need to close a 29% performance gap, which I agree is definitely it's possible (especially considering the process benefits), but including the power difference, I'm not too sure they can eek out and win in perf/w. 

 

Obviously we won't be able to tell until the zen 3 mobile CPUs come out for sure, but I think AMD does have a bit of a challenge.

I was looking at a 4800U which should boost slightly higher. a questionable average was 1250. if it does get a 20% IPC boost that puts it at right around 1500 assuming no clockspeed change

 

[Uttamattamakin]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:44 AM, Ankh Tech said:

@gal-m @wall03 @Den-Fi @aDoomGuy @SpaceGhostC2C @Fasauceome @Spindel @boggy77 @SupaKomputa @ialii @PeachGr @mahyar @Crazywizard @Blademaster91 @LogicalDrm @HelpfulTechWizard @Blade of Grass @Justaphysicsnerd @Mateyyy @Laborant @saltycaramel @Caroline @Amias @Sarra @NoVaGuy @Video Beagle @Uttamattamakin @RejZoR @spartaman64 @whm1974 @Jeppes @Lord Vile @tech.guru @Vishera

Can it run crisis

The answer  will be  Yes  BUT...  emulation.    Furthermore,  my  bet is  Apple will  have  the  hubris  to  at  some  point drop the emulation for X86  about when they drop X86 completely from  their line up even at the pro level.  They'll then expect their users to just live in their  garden.   

It's not an  inherent  aspect  of  ARM.  It is just an artefact of how the corporate masters run it.   Unless one can figure out how to run Windows for ARM or Linux on it and make the walled gardens merely  an option for those who  want  it.... an ARM based computing appliance  will  never  be  a  truly personal  computer.     The same  "pirates  of silicon valley"  who  wanted computing  to  have  a degree  of  personal  freedom  now want to lock  as many people down and milk them for money. 

This  said  by  one  who  may  use  Samsung  Dex on a Note  20  Ultra  for  a mobile computing  platform   in  the  future  unless I have a really compelling need  for  a full  Personal  computing  experience  that  I  can  take  with   me.   Like  a trip  away  from home.  

[saltycaramel]

10 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Changing resolution manually, I’m with you, it’s a rare occurrence anyway. Still cool. 

 

Changing resolution or main display when docking to a monitor, that can get annoying. 

 

[saltycaramel]

To be fair the windows laptop ain’t that bad

 

 

[VicBar]

On 11/26/2020 at 10:14 PM, gal-m said:

I was NOT expecting such a docile chip to have such incredible performance.

I mean... It's incredible performance*** with a ton of asterisks...

It IS incredible performance.. for this TDP, for example.. for this architecture, sure... for such a first generation attempt! It's impressive as all hell..
But it's not like suddenly it beat everything that is out there. It is not the x86 killer your post implies it is. And also a HUGE part of it is the software side of things..! The fact that Rossetta 2 has been so good so far is what makes them most compelling I think.. If not they'd just be an Ipad with a keyboard (as Riley and Linus like to point out) I disagree because of MacOS..

 

Quote

It makes me wonder what's going to happen if they ever decide to introduce a "really high powered" one.. It kind of seems like it could just chew everything else up to be honest. And as a consumer I don't want to be buying a new computer if we're about to witness a huge leap in performance... 

They most definitely will introduce a really high powered one, it is all but certain. So the main reason this is so awesome is for it's potential.. don't kill off x86 quite so fast. It'll be years before MacOS can offer the gaming experience that Windows does.. It could leverage the huge advancements that have been done to this in Linux, but that's another story.

[Lord Vile]

14 hours ago, A51UK said:

I did a little price up, PC price point of £1800 with the OS. 

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor	£461.51 @ Overclockers.co.uk
CPU Cooler	Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler	£29.77 @ Amazon UK
Motherboard	Gigabyte B550M DS3H Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard	£86.65 @ Amazon UK
Memory	G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory	£122.97 @ Amazon UK
Storage	Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive	£99.90 @ Amazon UK
Video Card	MSI GeForce RTX 3070 8 GB VENTUS 2X OC Video Card	£572.95 @ Overclockers.co.uk
Case	Corsair SPEC-DELTA RGB ATX Mid Tower Case	£60.46 @ Amazon UK
Power Supply	EVGA BQ 500 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply	£86.09 @ Amazon UK
Operating System	Microsoft Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	£89.95 @ AWD-IT
Monitor	LG 24MK400H-B 24.0" 1920x1080 75 Hz Monitor	£91.88 @ More Computers
Monitor	LG 24MK400H-B 24.0" 1920x1080 75 Hz Monitor	£91.88 @ More Computers
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	£1794.01
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-04 20:30 GMT+0000

 

 

 

The Mac still come up cost far more for lot less but the Mac does come with 5K Monitor, if you really need a 5K Monitor the Mac may come out cheaper. Myself I care more about performance then have no need for a 5K or 4K Monitor for now.  Getting someone build the PC cost about £50, or do it yourself for free. 

 

 

 

Do you get the premise of spec for spec? You’ve included not only a completely different platform, which btw does not support TB3 which is why I picked the motherboard on my listing, but a different GPU and a SATA SSD not an NVME drive which all Macs ship with. Also if you’re wanting to do video or colour work you want the 4/5K colour accurate display. You’re not the target audience for an iMac so stop acting like because YOU don’t want it then it must be worthless. 

[A51UK]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

Do you get the premise of spec for spec? You’ve included not only a completely different platform, which btw does not support TB3 which is why I picked the motherboard on my listing, but a different GPU and a SATA SSD not an NVME drive which all Macs ship with. 

No not a different platform both Intel and AMD are x86-64 CPU are same platform,  AMD and Intel have license to each other the x86-64 platform.  A different platform would be some like Power or RISC-V. Also note TB3 no one real care about due to USB 3. Also not much different with NVME and SATA SSD, but I come easy did the same with a Intel CPU and NVME.  Price to spec PC would win easy. 

[whm1974]

15 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Do you get the premise of spec for spec? You’ve included not only a completely different platform, which btw does not support TB3 which is why I picked the motherboard on my listing, but a different GPU and a SATA SSD not an NVME drive which all Macs ship with. Also if you’re wanting to do video or colour work you want the 4/5K colour accurate display. You’re not the target audience for an iMac so stop acting like because YOU don’t want it then it must be worthless. 

Very few people will notice any difference between SATA and NVMe SSDs anyway. Unless the User(s) are dealing with massive file sizes or do need the much lower latency NVMe is capable of.

 

And ARM? Remember that ARM got it's start on Acorn Personal Computers to replace the MOS 6502 used with the BBC Micro and Master produce by Acorn.

[Lord Vile]

2 hours ago, A51UK said:

No not a different platform both Intel and AMD are x86-64 CPU are same platform,  AMD and Intel have license to each other the x86-64 platform.  A different platform would be some like Power or RISC-V. Also note TB3 no one real care about due to USB 3. Also not much different with NVME and SATA SSD, but I come easy did the same with a Intel CPU and NVME.  Price to spec PC would win easy. 

x86 is an instruction set if we’re being pedantic. Also just because they’re both x86 systems doesn’t mean they have the same feature sets. For example you can’t use Intel quick sync on an AMD system and AMD don’t support AVX 512. 
 

TB3 does things USB can’t, I’m assuming you mean USB4 not 3 which isn’t to the same spec. Don’t know for sure but the LG ultra fine 5K might not even work via USB4. 
 

Spec for spec they’re the same price and that’s without the inclusion of macos which is where the real value of Macs come in. 

[Amias]

It feels to me like people are arguing that the Magnificant Mallard will always be superior to the Ford Model T as it goes faster.

 

But in reality, steam (x86) is exhausted, maxed out and hitting it's fundamental limits in improvement. The internal combustion engine (ARM) is newer, more efficient and nowhere near it's prime.

 

As much as they keep updating and evolving x86, it's still based on solving fundamental problems technology has long solved.

 

AMD, Intel, Microsoft and the current mainstream consumer PC Market need to come together and reset and create a new modern standard. Or face getting crushed and forgotten in the past.

[whm1974]

1 hour ago, Amias said:

It feels to me like people are arguing that the Magnificant Mallard will always be superior to the Ford Model T as it goes faster.

 

But in reality, steam (x86) is exhausted, maxed out and hitting it's fundamental limits in improvement. The internal combustion engine (ARM) is newer, more efficient and nowhere near it's prime.

 

As much as they keep updating and evolving x86, it's still based on solving fundamental problems technology has long solved.

 

AMD, Intel, Microsoft and the current mainstream consumer PC Market need to come together and reset and create a new modern standard. Or face getting crushed and forgotten in the past.

The Consumer PC Market will still be using x86-64 CPUs for long time to come. And why wouldn't they?

[A51UK]

5 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

x86 is an instruction set if we’re being pedantic. Also just because they’re both x86 systems doesn’t mean they have the same feature sets. For example you can’t use Intel quick sync on an AMD system and AMD don’t support AVX 512. 
 

TB3 does things USB can’t, I’m assuming you mean USB4 not 3 which isn’t to the same spec. Don’t know for sure but the LG ultra fine 5K might not even work via USB4. 
 

Spec for spec they’re the same price and that’s without the inclusion of macos which is where the real value of Macs come in. 

The different you talk about are very small, No one use USB for monitor but HDMI. You also miss out that I put Windows 10 in the pricing as well as still cheaper, do note that you can get the core of MacOS (Darwin) for free!  MacOS is overrate, when you have Linux, Windows, I think MacOS could sale well on it own without the Mac but I would not buy it as I find it to be one of the worst GUI for any OS other then Windows 8 / 8.1 as there most worst GUI of all time.  Better OS GUI  I think are: Windows 7, Mint, Cinnamon, GNOME, MS-DOS, GEM, Classic Mac OS.  I would say why not try out some other OS you may like them more. 

[whm1974]

56 minutes ago, A51UK said:

The different you talk about are very small, No one use USB for monitor but HDMI. You also miss out that I put Windows 10 in the pricing as well as still cheaper, do note that you can get the core of MacOS (Darwin) for free!  MacOS is overrate, when you have Linux, Windows, I think MacOS could sale well on it own without the Mac but I would not buy it as I find it to be one of the worst GUI for any OS other then Windows 8 / 8.1 as there most worst GUI of all time.  Better OS GUI  I think are: Windows 7, Mint, Cinnamon, GNOME, MS-DOS, GEM, Classic Mac OS.  I would say why not try out some other OS you may like them more. 

MS-DOS is command line OS. GEM was one of the Operating Environments available for it. The Atari ST and TT systems used it on top of TheOS these PCs ran.

[GDRRiley]

7 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

x86 is an instruction set if we’re being pedantic. Also just because they’re both x86 systems doesn’t mean they have the same feature sets. For example you can’t use Intel quick sync on an AMD system and AMD don’t support AVX 512. 
 

TB3 does things USB can’t, I’m assuming you mean USB4 not 3 which isn’t to the same spec. Don’t know for sure but the LG ultra fine 5K might not even work via USB4.

AVX512 is barley on tiger lake right now, sure on Xeons/ HEDT its been their for a while but nothing on desktop has it.

Intel quick sync isn't amazing and if you've got a dedicated GPU the encoders on it will be better than quick sync

 

the LG ultra fine 5k won't work on any non mac because apple breaks the spec with custom timing controllers to get 5k

USB4 and TB3 cover basically the exact same thing. hell TB3 has so many optional things that intel made TB4 to just mandate most of them.

TB has had so many issues, its held together with tape and a hope.