m1 Apple M1 = the rest of us are living in the stone age!?

[gal-m]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:10 PM, GDRRiley said:

mid to late 2022. 2021 should be all zen3

IF we will be able to actually purchase them haha!

Well.. now I REALLY don't know what to do. What do you think - is it still reasonable to invest in the B550/X570 platform at the moment, or should one just wait for the end of 2022?

[tech.guru]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:05 AM, gal-m said:

Yep. Windows is definitely the go-to for school work. Though, with the MacBook's new performance in reference to battery life, I think a lot of people would want to carry a nice, light, portable laptop for tasks that do not require Windows based applications.

The question is what does this offer outside a tablet or smartphone.

 

Is it the form factor and screen size?

[whm1974]

3 minutes ago, tech.guru said:

The question is what does this offer outside a tablet or smartphone.

 

Is it the form factor and screen size?

Phones and tablets don't have larger screen sizes.

[tech.guru]

I just remember samsung dex.

 

It was more innovative you put your smartphone in a dock and allows you to use your smartphone like a traditional pc.

 

I just question why we need "another device". if everybody here has a smartphone and doesnt require performance of a traditional pc why not just convert the laptop into a shell to hold your phone and convert it into a different form factor with a keyboard and mouse.

 

Why create additional waste and cost for consumers if people in apple universe seem to be happy with low power system on chip ARM designs that are in many smartphone and tablets

 

Something like

https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/

 

But much more elegant 

[whm1974]

8 minutes ago, tech.guru said:

I just remember samsung dex.

 

It was more innovative you put your smartphone in a dock and allows you to use your smartphone like a traditional pc.

 

I just question why we need "another device". if everybody here has a smartphone and doesnt require performance of a traditional pc why not just convert the laptop into a shell to hold your phone and convert it into a different form factor with a keyboard and mouse.

 

Why create additional waste and cost for consumers if people in apple universe seem to be happy with low power system on chip ARM designs that are in many smartphone and tablets

 

Something like

https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/

 

But much more elegant 

How much does this setup cost? I tend to use my Smartphone primary as a phone. I only say surf the Net or watch a video online with it if I am somewhere waiting on something.

[tech.guru]

On 12/4/2020 at 2:04 PM, spartaman64 said:

there has always been a big push for arm in supercomputers/servers for years and while its making some progress now but x86 is still more popular and in some cases even more efficient.

imo much of the m1 advantage comes from being on tsmc 5nm which amd is using for zen 4 also 

Arm really excels with parellization where rows and rows of chips each process chunks of information to solve a problem.

 

Its completely different... than some of the traditional x86 workload. Not everything is containerized existing applications and services need to be rethought and progammed.

 

It has promise though but like most things will happen slowly

[tech.guru]

17 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

How much does this setup cost? I tend to use my Smartphone primary as a phone. I only say surf the Net or watch a video online with it if I am somewhere waiting on something.

Its $199 usd and available via kickstarter.

 

How you use your smartphone, has to do with your own preference.

 

Im just saying to reduce waste,

i think having the chips in your phone would make more sense if you truly wanted a low powered long lasting laptop device on arm.

 

You could also get upgrades for both devices by buying a new smartphone since the laptop is just a shell with the brains being your smartphones SoC 

There is so much consumer waste in throwing away all these electronic devices everytime a new model comes out.

 

Why not use the processing of one device so you only need to upgrade that device if you need extra performance?

[tech.guru]

Apple could do something slicker and of course charge more.

[Badger906]

4 minutes ago, tech.guru said:

Its $199 usd and available via kickstarter.

 

How you use your smartphone, has to do with your own preference.

 

Im just saying to reduce waste,

i think having the chips in your phone would make more sense if you truly wanted a low powered long lasting laptop device on arm.

 

You could also get upgrades for both devices by buying a new smartphone since the laptop is just a shell with the brains being your smartphones SoC 

There is so much consumer waste in throwing away all these electronic devices everytime a new model comes out.

 

Why not use the processing of one device so you only need to upgrade that device if you need extra performance?

but like wise the one buying the newest and latest tech will sell it on meaning new hardware doesn't have to be made for the person buying it second had. so there's no wastage there. the average person changes their phone every 1 to 2 years based on their length of contract. laptops asa rule have a longer life to most than that.

[tech.guru]

17 minutes ago, Badger906 said:

but like wise the one buying the newest and latest tech will sell it on meaning new hardware doesn't have to be made for the person buying it second had. so there's no wastage there. the average person changes their phone every 1 to 2 years based on their length of contract. laptops asa rule have a longer life to most than that.

There gets a point that consumers will be overwhelmed wheres the breaking point? How long can consumers be expected to spend on upgrade cycles for tablets, smartphones and laptops each year? 

 

apple had opportunity to do something significant to reduce waste.

 

I know they never do this, they will milk consumers by developing yet another chip. Yes, of course the m1 is more powerful right now  than any smartphone chip because of active cooling and larger chassis of laptops but the costs of another dedicated SoC is more waste and cost for consumers.

 

If you have longer upgrade cycles for laptop you would be missing out on the performance gains and generational yeap of each architectural refresh

 

Its another justification to use the consumers rapid upgrade cycle for smartphones to improve performance of both devices.

 

[whm1974]

8 minutes ago, tech.guru said:

There gets a point that consumers will be overwhelmed wheres the breaking point? How long can consumers be expected to spend on upgrade cycles for tablets, smartphones and laptops each year? 

 

apple had opportunity to do something significant to reduce waste.

 

I know they never do this, they will milk consumers by developing yet another chip. Yes, of course the m1 is more powerful right now  than any smartphone chip because of active cooling and larger chassis of laptops but the costs of another dedicated SoC is more waste and cost for consumers.

 

If you have longer upgrade cycles for laptop you would be missing out on the performance gains and generational yeap of each architectural refresh

 

Its another justification to use the consumers rapid upgrade cycle for smartphones to improve performance of both devices.

 

How many replace their Desktops and Laptops? I'm using the same tower I built back in 2013. Still have the refurb Thinkpad T430 brought in ~2016.

[Amias]

12 hours ago, whm1974 said:

The Consumer PC Market will still be using x86-64 CPUs for long time to come. And why wouldn't they?

Because every generational improvement is focused on heat management. It's why the CPU cooler, temperatures and clock speed (temp dependent) are focused on within PC reviews.

We only have a limited radiator space to cool our PC's immense heat output. Speed improvements are driven primarily by transition efficiency gains (node size). 

 

Performance per Watt is soon to be critical, and ARM wipes the floor with x86.

 

 

Intel and AMD are both levelling out. 

 

ARM (and a Qualcomm even) is still on a sharp trajectory upwards. This is the future. 

 

And even with drastic cooling improvements and massive radiators to keep x86 chipsets cool for high work loads. Why the hell would the vast majority of the PC market (office, school, laptop etc) stay on x86? Apple has proven now you can run 99% of the PC market workload on a passively cooled fully integrated SoC. Why spec out and kit PC towers, CPU, RAM, Harddrive, motherboard etc, when a company can spit out single mobo in a tiny box that does everything, just as fast.

[whm1974]

2 minutes ago, Amias said:

Because every generational improvement is focused on heat management. It's why the CPU cooler, temperatures and clock speed (temp dependent) are focused on within PC reviews.

We only have a limited radiator space to cool our PC's immense heat output. Speed improvements are driven primarily by transition efficiency gains (node size). 

 

Performance per Watt is soon to be critical, and ARM wipes the floor with x86.

 

 

Intel and AMD are both levelling out. 

 

ARM (and a Qualcomm even) is still on a sharp trajectory upwards. This is the future. 

 

And even with drastic cooling improvements and massive radiators to keep x86 chipsets cool for high work loads. Why the hell would the vast majority of the PC market (office, school, laptop etc) stay on x86? Apple has proven now you can run 99% of the PC market workload on a passively cooled fully integrated SoC. Why spec out and kit PC towers, CPU, RAM, Harddrive, motherboard etc, when a company can spit out single mobo in a tiny box that does everything, just as fast.

And how performance limited is this box? Keep in mind that Apple is a Walled Garden which for people like me, avoid.

[Jeppes]

5 minutes ago, Amias said:

Because every generational improvement is focused on heat management. It's why the CPU cooler, temperatures and clock speed (temp dependent) are focused on within PC reviews.

We only have a limited radiator space to cool our PC's immense heat output. Speed improvements are driven primarily by transition efficiency gains (node size). 

 

Performance per Watt is soon to be critical, and ARM wipes the floor with x86.

 

 

Intel and AMD are both levelling out. 

 

ARM (and a Qualcomm even) is still on a sharp trajectory upwards. This is the future. 

 

And even with drastic cooling improvements and massive radiators to keep x86 chipsets cool for high work loads. Why the hell would the vast majority of the PC market (office, school, laptop etc) stay on x86? Apple has proven now you can run 99% of the PC market workload on a passively cooled fully integrated SoC. Why spec out and kit PC towers, CPU, RAM, Harddrive, motherboard etc, when a company can spit out single mobo in a tiny box that does everything, just as fast.

Why do you need a separate device? Why not just plug in your phone and use it as desktop?

[Amias]

Just now, Jeppes said:

Why do you need a separate device? Why not just plug in your phone and use it as desktop?

And they'll be run on ARM. not x86.

[Jeppes]

Just now, Amias said:

And they'll be run on ARM. not x86.

Yes. Why do you need an arm desktop? Why not just use a phone?

[whm1974]

1 hour ago, Jeppes said:

Yes. Why do you need an arm desktop? Why not just use a phone?

This is strange question.

[Lord Vile]

17 hours ago, A51UK said:

The different you talk about are very small, No one use USB for monitor but HDMI. You also miss out that I put Windows 10 in the pricing as well as still cheaper, do note that you can get the core of MacOS (Darwin) for free!  MacOS is overrate, when you have Linux, Windows, I think MacOS could sale well on it own without the Mac but I would not buy it as I find it to be one of the worst GUI for any OS other then Windows 8 / 8.1 as there most worst GUI of all time.  Better OS GUI  I think are: Windows 7, Mint, Cinnamon, GNOME, MS-DOS, GEM, Classic Mac OS.  I would say why not try out some other OS you may like them more. 

You’re missing the point still. YOU HAVE MADE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPEC. 
 

You haven’t used MacOS you’re literally copying and pasting other peoples opinions at this point.  

[Lord Vile]

15 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

AVX512 is barley on tiger lake right now, sure on Xeons/ HEDT its been their for a while but nothing on desktop has it.

Was just the easiest example a lot of features AMD doesn’t support and there’s a few Intel specific things they can’t have.

15 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

Intel quick sync isn't amazing and if you've got a dedicated GPU the encoders on it will be better than quick sync

But in the machines they’re in which are mainly mobile or work. Also quicksync has its advantages over GPU in terms of encoding/decoding and power draw. 

15 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

 

the LG ultra fine 5k won't work on any non mac because apple breaks the spec with custom timing controllers to get 5k

USB4 and TB3 cover basically the exact same thing. hell TB3 has so many optional things that intel made TB4 to just mandate most of them.

TB has had so many issues, its held together with tape and a hope.

The ultra fine will work just at 4K. It will work if your PC supports DP over USBC or TB3. 
 

The full spec of TB3 still has more features than USB4

[Lord Vile]

On 12/5/2020 at 11:13 AM, whm1974 said:

Very few people will notice any difference between SATA and NVMe SSDs anyway. Unless the User(s) are dealing with massive file sizes or do need the much lower latency NVMe is capable of.

You mean like most of the people who are target audiences for the beefier Macs? 

On 12/5/2020 at 11:13 AM, whm1974 said:

 

And ARM? Remember that ARM got it's start on Acorn Personal Computers to replace the MOS 6502 used with the BBC Micro and Master produce by Acorn.

Your point being? 

[A51UK]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

You’re missing the point still. YOU HAVE MADE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPEC. 
 

You haven’t used MacOS you’re literally copying and pasting other peoples opinions at this point.  

I think you miss the point, the spec I give you are far better them on the Mac for low price or same price. Try having a open mind. 

 

Saying someone have not use a MacOS without know them is a error. i have try it out and using in my university as I did not have a choice (build IOS apps). I really do think it very overrate OS and really poor GUI. I found it really hard to used and very confused, find the using CIL more easy. I find MS-DOS was last confusing. Have you try any other OS other them MacOS or Windows? You may find other OS have better GUI.  Please do try and see what outside of apple.  I did also say that I think if Apple sell the MacOS to be use on other them Mac it would sell way.

 

As you are fanboy and will not look at with more logic I not going to reply anymore.  Note: I not a fanboy of anything other them the Atari ST line of computer from the 80s but I would still look at other system to see if there was better with a fair mind and pick that system.  Like when my family move on to PC from  Atari ST, due to PC as better and Atari ST was a dead end.  

 

 

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, A51UK said:

I think you miss the point, the spec I give you are far better them on the Mac for low price or same price. Try having a open mind. 

But it’s not the SAME which was my point. 

Quote

Saying someone have not use a MacOS without know them is a error. i have try it out and using in my university as I did not have a choice (build IOS apps). I really do think it very overrate OS and really poor GUI. I found it really hard to used and very confused, find the using CIL more easy. I find MS-DOS was last confusing. Have you try any other OS other them MacOS or Windows? You may find other OS have better GUI.  Please do try and see what outside of apple.  I did also say that I think if Apple sell the MacOS to be use on other them Mac it would sell way.

I used Linux for molecular modelling? Honestly you just sound like you’re lying or haven’t used it enough to get used to it. MacOS is extremely stable and never derps like Windows. Linux in general is just inaccessible to the general

population. 

Quote

As you are fanboy and will not look at with more logic I not going to reply anymore.  Note: I not a fanboy of anything other them the Atari ST line of computer from the 80s but I would still look at other system to see if there was better with a fair mind and pick that system.  Like when my family move on to PC from  Atari ST, due to PC as better and Atari ST was a dead end.  

Maybe you should learn what spec for spec means rather than answer an argument you want to rather than the one presented and avoiding the real question by calling people fanboys?

[Mling]

wait for second or third gen M1. When they make improvements on a good thing it can only be super awesome. Also there will be more software by then.

[Amias]

8 hours ago, whm1974 said:

And how performance limited is this box? Keep in mind that Apple is a Walled Garden which for people like me, avoid.

Yeah. It's not good.

 

When your main market leader sucks, it dissolves and eliminates freedom in the market. This is something we should be worried about. Apple has made it clear it does not like free software. 

 

Yet Apple is the only one moving and innovating. Their new M1 chips are a paradigm shift in personal computing. Before we all know MacOS was a little slicker, but you paid for that, however at the end of the day it's all the same metal underneath so regardless of who dominated, everyone still had access to the hardware. Now with the latest move by Apple. High speed ARM custom chips designed by ... probably some of the best people in the industry ... will be locked out of the market.

 

90% of the market wants a fast laptop that lasts for ages and works. Apple can fill that hole better than anyone else right now. As they take more market share, there is less money in the already fragmented open market, leading to lesser and lesser innovation and advancement.

 

Microsoft, Intel, AMD and Nvidia need to figure out a new better system, asap. Right now you have god knows how many independent and competing companies all vying for a position in a complex diverse ... but realistically overly complicated hardware market. All trying to compete against a company bigger than them all combined, fully vertically integrated. Apple introduces a new 'chip' to the market, it's delivering it fully integrated with their OS, laptops. They control the software market place so they can enforce utilisation of new features.

 

AMD could have the greatest innovation, however they need Microsoft to introduce the software update, mobo makers to address, RAM to integrate, international standards to be agreed. Then finally someone needs to write software for it ... Apple can just do it.

 

This is incredibly worrying.

[Ankh Tech]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

But it’s not the SAME which was my point. 

I used Linux for molecular modelling? Honestly you just sound like you’re lying or haven’t used it enough to get used to it. MacOS is extremely stable and never derps like Windows. Linux in general is just inaccessible to the general

population. 

Maybe you should learn what spec for spec means rather than answer an argument you want to rather than the one presented and avoiding the real question by calling people fanboys?

he is saying for that money you can get, not somethig equal that is cheaper, mac os is the second best os, after linux, for no derpiness, but easier to use for some, so wildly popular, a similar build would cost a tad cheaper, like the pricing is not natural, here is a similiar build, that would still beat it, and to get to the price of the m1 pro 13 inch, maxed out and crush it with ease, 5800x and 6800, so I still do not see any value 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$329.00 @ B&H
Motherboard	MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard	$114.99 @ B&H
Memory	Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-4266 CL19 Memory	$349.99 @ Newegg
Storage	Corsair MP600 Force Series Gen4 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$379.99 @ Amazon
Video Card	MSI GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4 GB Video Card	$157.69 @ Amazon
Case	Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case	$79.99 @ Best Buy
Power Supply	Corsair RMx 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$213.90 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$1625.55
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-06 11:50 EST-0500