m1 Apple M1 = the rest of us are living in the stone age!?

[Ankh Tech]

oh ignore the graphics, just tried to look for a good match for the m1 gpu @Lord Vile

[saltycaramel]

I think the algorithm for any sane person at this point should be

1) Do you game on your computer?

Yes —> buy a Windows PC

No —> go to point 2

 

2) Do you need a couple of programs that are only available on Windows, or do you need to virtualize x86 OSes with little overhead?

Yes —> buy a Windows PC

No —> buy an Apple Silicon Mac

 

Simple as that.

Cost-effectiveness is not even in question, that’s obviously great. 

 

Now, of course this algorithm will make a ton more sense once we see the rest of the 2020-2021 Apple CPU line-up. So far, we’ve only seen the equivalent of Intel’s “-U” chips. 

[Lord Vile]

2 hours ago, Ankh Tech said:

he is saying for that money you can get, not somethig equal that is cheaper, mac os is the second best os, after linux, for no derpiness, but easier to use for some, so wildly popular, a similar build would cost a tad cheaper, like the pricing is not natural, here is a similiar build, that would still beat it, and to get to the price of the m1 pro 13 inch, maxed out and crush it with ease, 5800x and 6800, so I still do not see any value 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$329.00 @ B&H
Motherboard	MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard	$114.99 @ B&H
Memory	Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-4266 CL19 Memory	$349.99 @ Newegg
Storage	Corsair MP600 Force Series Gen4 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$379.99 @ Amazon
Video Card	MSI GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4 GB Video Card	$157.69 @ Amazon
Case	Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case	$79.99 @ Best Buy
Power Supply	Corsair RMx 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$213.90 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$1625.55
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-06 11:50 EST-0500

 

Why are you trying to match ARM? The M1 is based off of performance per watt. Also why are you comparing a LAPTOP, sorry an ULTRABOOK vs a full desktop? I was comparing prices of iMacs because they’re the desktop most people would get from Apple and you can build the same system as a PC. You’ve also not included a monitor in that prove or the fact the M1 is a 10W chip and the 3700X alone without the GPU is 65W plus the 75W GPU. So you’re at what 14x the power consumption?

[GDRRiley]

7 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Was just the easiest example a lot of features AMD doesn’t support and there’s a few Intel specific things they can’t have.

But in the machines they’re in which are mainly mobile or work. Also quicksync has its advantages over GPU in terms of encoding/decoding and power draw. 

The ultra fine will work just at 4K. It will work if your PC supports DP over USBC or TB3. 
 

The full spec of TB3 still has more features than USB4

Nothing great

amd APUs also have encoders. VCE goes back to 2012 and VCN 3.0 which should come with their next APUs and is in the 6000 GPUs does AV1 just like tiger lake

right because apple breaks specs

 

 

[whm1974]

3 hours ago, Ankh Tech said:

he is saying for that money you can get, not somethig equal that is cheaper, mac os is the second best os, after linux, for no derpiness, but easier to use for some, so wildly popular, a similar build would cost a tad cheaper, like the pricing is not natural, here is a similiar build, that would still beat it, and to get to the price of the m1 pro 13 inch, maxed out and crush it with ease, 5800x and 6800, so I still do not see any value 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$329.00 @ B&H
Motherboard	MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard	$114.99 @ B&H
Memory	Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-4266 CL19 Memory	$349.99 @ Newegg
Storage	Corsair MP600 Force Series Gen4 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$379.99 @ Amazon
Video Card	MSI GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4 GB Video Card	$157.69 @ Amazon
Case	Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case	$79.99 @ Best Buy
Power Supply	Corsair RMx 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$213.90 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$1625.55
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-12-06 11:50 EST-0500

 

You don't need DDR4-4266 Memory since DDR4-3200 will do fine. And Why would you use the GTX 1050Ti 4GB for this build anyway?

 

Some changes are needed here this Rig. Changed to Ryzen 7 3700, RAM to DDR4-3200. The PSU for that price a SeaSonic can be had. Better brand. A SATA SSD of the same size is cheaper.

[low tier gamer]

On 11/26/2020 at 6:25 AM, boggy77 said:

what other igpu beats a 1050ti?

igpus arent built for gaming. apple is the only one that has their igpus for gaming and developers. other igpus are just for gpu acceleration 

[Jeppes]

11 hours ago, whm1974 said:

This is strange question.

Its not really. If arm is indeed fast enough, an arm desktop is just an unneeded e-waste maker for most people. Your phone will have a fast enough cpu&gpu for most desktop apps so why force people to a new phone in a fancier casing?

[Commodus]

3 hours ago, Amias said:

Yeah. It's not good.

 

When your main market leader sucks, it dissolves and eliminates freedom in the market. This is something we should be worried about. Apple has made it clear it does not like free software. 

 

Yet Apple is the only one moving and innovating. Their new M1 chips are a paradigm shift in personal computing. Before we all know MacOS was a little slicker, but you paid for that, however at the end of the day it's all the same metal underneath so regardless of who dominated, everyone still had access to the hardware. Now with the latest move by Apple. High speed ARM custom chips designed by ... probably some of the best people in the industry ... will be locked out of the market.

 

90% of the market wants a fast laptop that lasts for ages and works. Apple can fill that hole better than anyone else right now. As they take more market share, there is less money in the already fragmented open market, leading to lesser and lesser innovation and advancement.

 

Microsoft, Intel, AMD and Nvidia need to figure out a new better system, asap. Right now you have god knows how many independent and competing companies all vying for a position in a complex diverse ... but realistically overly complicated hardware market. All trying to compete against a company bigger than them all combined, fully vertically integrated. Apple introduces a new 'chip' to the market, it's delivering it fully integrated with their OS, laptops. They control the software market place so they can enforce utilisation of new features.

 

AMD could have the greatest innovation, however they need Microsoft to introduce the software update, mobo makers to address, RAM to integrate, international standards to be agreed. Then finally someone needs to write software for it ... Apple can just do it.

 

This is incredibly worrying.

In a sense, Apple's move to ARM for computers has highlighted a perpetual problem with... well, the non-Apple world in general. There's this mediocrity, this eagerness to compromise and settle in the name of pleasing a whole bunch of companies. Apple just has to focus on its own bottom line and the user experience it wants to create.

 

I would like Apple to open up a bit (if just to allow other operating systems to run in VMs and Boot Camp), but like you said, the truth is that everyday people want a computer that works well. They have no strong reason to care about theoretical openness. (As I like to put it: a Chinese iPhone user might have more real-world freedom than an FOSS diehard who only uses open hardware.) Apple might just have the best option for many people right now. It's certainly easier to justify a MacBook Air if you know it'll handle your Zoom calls for twice as long as a comparable Windows laptop.

 

 

[Commodus]

18 hours ago, Jeppes said:

Its not really. If arm is indeed fast enough, an arm desktop is just an unneeded e-waste maker for most people. Your phone will have a fast enough cpu&gpu for most desktop apps so why force people to a new phone in a fancier casing?

Computer-oriented ARM chips can be tuned for greater power envelopes and larger enclosures. That's why the M1 isn't just an A14 with more I/O support.

 

(Edit: 3,000th post!)

Edited December 7, 2020 by Commodus
Anniversary post!

[Jeppes]

4 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Computer-oriented ARM chips can be tuned for greater power envelopes and larger enclosures. That's why the M1 isn't just an A14 with more I/O support.

Can be but in most cases dont need to be. A13 is fast enough already for most use, and the new one will be even faster.

[whm1974]

3 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

Can be but in most cases dont need to be. A13 is fast enough already for most use, and the new one will be even faster.

What do you Mean Desktop Applications? I like to see someone try to do Photoshop or GIMP on a Cell Phone. Maybe CAD or 3D Rendering.

 

What price Smartphones are speaking of here? If I was a Betting Man, I would bet you that most people own an Android phone and not a pricey Apple iPhone.

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

Nothing great

amd APUs also have encoders. VCE goes back to 2012 and VCN 3.0 which should come with their next APUs and is in the 6000 GPUs does AV1 just like tiger lake

right because apple breaks specs

 

 

Not ALL of them though and when you're apple who has built x86 software around intel for so long some features that AMD even on hackintosh's aren't as reliable as Intel systems are for even basic features like the sleep function not working.

[Lord Vile]

36 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

What do you Mean Desktop Applications? I like to see someone try to do Photoshop or GIMP on a Cell Phone. Maybe CAD or 3D Rendering.

 

What price Smartphones are speaking of here? If I was a Betting Man, I would bet you that most people own an Android phone and not a pricey Apple iPhone.

Android has the highest market share worldwide but iPhones have been the best selling phone every year for around a decade now. In the price brackets iPhones sell at they are the most popular phone. Also market share you have to look at locations too. If you look at North America and Japan for example iOS has the lead by miles, in the UK and AUS it's 50/50, Android wins handily in Asia and Mainland Europe. But a lot of that in Asia for example is because iPhones are taxed to high heaven and the population isn't as wealthy.

[tech.guru]

15 hours ago, Amias said:

Because every generational improvement is focused on heat management. It's why the CPU cooler, temperatures and clock speed (temp dependent) are focused on within PC reviews.

We only have a limited radiator space to cool our PC's immense heat output. Speed improvements are driven primarily by transition efficiency gains (node size). 

 

Performance per Watt is soon to be critical, and ARM wipes the floor with x86.

 

 

Intel and AMD are both levelling out. 

 

ARM (and a Qualcomm even) is still on a sharp trajectory upwards. This is the future. 

 

And even with drastic cooling improvements and massive radiators to keep x86 chipsets cool for high work loads. Why the hell would the vast majority of the PC market (office, school, laptop etc) stay on x86? Apple has proven now you can run 99% of the PC market workload on a passively cooled fully integrated SoC. Why spec out and kit PC towers, CPU, RAM, Harddrive, motherboard etc, when a company can spit out single mobo in a tiny box that does everything, just as fast.

there is a lot of assumptions in that graph,

 

first off the graph has a lot of assumptions,

 

single core performance while important isnt the only metric of the overall performance.

if you look at the graph seems to point to energy efficiency as being relative to performance.

 

no one can argue that TDP is important and can help keep our environmental usage low, depending on the use case and purpose raw performance may matter more than efficiency.... M1 is behind all those processors for raw performance in higher TDP limits even in favorable single core workloads today.

 

single core performance is fine for everyday use cases but alot of apple customers also have demanding workloads such as 

      photo editing

      video editing

      or some 3d demanding games

 

will benefit from processing cores. consumers do care about multi core performance from streaming and playing games at same time its easy to see why. those that depend the higher core counts and multi core performance this device is less of an upgrade and more of a downgrade.

 

"Apple has proven now you can run 99% of the PC market workload"

 

have they? really thats a bold statement for a product just released a few weeks ago. if you remember bill gates line "640K ought to be enough for anybody" you will realize that innovation and rapid pace of technology has a lot of surprises.

 

the masses you refer to are starting to not even have computers and have adopted the whole "pc is dead" and moved on to solely have smartphone and tablet devices. thats why pc sales were down year after year until covid hit and people were forced to work from home.

 

i dont see the value in my opinion this product provides and uncertain what "need" it fills, in my mind people who are buying laptops want the extra performance.. if history tell us anything this will fail as other products of the past..,  consumers did not jump on board the vision of google chrome/cloud books and microsoft  windows on arm.

 

we will see how the sales work out in the longterm and if this signals a greater shift in the industry.

i dont think it will, 

 

 

[GDRRiley]

5 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Not ALL of them though and when you're apple who has built x86 software around intel for so long some features that AMD even on hackintosh's aren't as reliable as Intel systems are for even basic features like the sleep function not working.

thats on apple. Apple could have easily gotten custom AMD APUs. they already have 1 off GPUs from AMD

[Ankh Tech]

10 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Why are you trying to match ARM? The M1 is based off of performance per watt. Also why are you comparing a LAPTOP, sorry an ULTRABOOK vs a full desktop? I was comparing prices of iMacs because they’re the desktop most people would get from Apple and you can build the same system as a PC. You’ve also not included a monitor in that prove or the fact the M1 is a 10W chip and the 3700X alone without the GPU is 65W plus the 75W GPU. So you’re at what 14x the power consumption?

what I am saying is if somebody is paying that much for a pc, then saving moey is his concern???? We could also add a monitor and stay under budget, and even add a better gpu

[Lord Vile]

3 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

thats on apple. Apple could have easily gotten custom AMD APUs. they already have 1 off GPUs from AMD

Or maybe they have an exclusivity deal with intel on x86? 

[Lord Vile]

2 hours ago, Ankh Tech said:

what I am saying is if somebody is paying that much for a pc, then saving moey is his concern???? We could also add a monitor and stay under budget, and even add a better gpu

But it's not a PC it's a laptop which you pay extra for it, y'know, being a laptop. You're just making up BS now. Apple do not charge a significant markup for their desktops compared to what they'd cost to build yourself. You can say "well this setup performs better" all you want it doesn't change the fact that the "apple tax" is a myth, Macs are not more expensive than any other desktop part for part.

[Ankh Tech]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

But it's not a PC it's a laptop which you pay extra for it, y'know, being a laptop. You're just making up BS now. Apple do not charge a significant markup for their desktops compared to what they'd cost to build yourself. You can say "well this setup performs better" all you want it doesn't change the fact that the "apple tax" is a myth, Macs are not more expensive than any other desktop part for part.

yes laptops are generaly much more expensive and worse, But this pricing applies to an imac too, so then, a normal desktop would make sense. I see your point, but normal laptops do not increase 200 dollars in price for more ram do they

[Lord Vile]

1 minute ago, Ankh Tech said:

yes laptops are generaly much more expensive and worse, But this pricing applies to an imac too, so then, a normal desktop would make sense. I see your point, but normal laptops do not increase 200 dollars in price for more ram do they

No the pricing doesn't apply to an iMac too as I have shown the price is around the same as it would be to build it yourself.

 

RAM upgrades are all more expensive compared to what you'd pay just for sticks. Also the iMac has user upgradable RAM...

[Ankh Tech]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

No the pricing doesn't apply to an iMac too as I have shown the price is around the same as it would be to build it yourself.

 

RAM upgrades are all more expensive compared to what you'd pay just for sticks. Also the iMac has user upgradable RAM...

we don't know if we will see m1 imacs, like a 8 big core m1x? I love apple, I just don't see any value, would buy one if I have to, ot do a hackintosh

[GDRRiley]

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Or maybe they have an exclusivity deal with intel on x86? 

that would be the most dumb thing ever. and they don't

[Lord Vile]

4 hours ago, Ankh Tech said:

we don't know if we will see m1 imacs, like a 8 big core m1x? I love apple, I just don't see any value, would buy one if I have to, ot do a hackintosh

That's still not my point.

[Lord Vile]

4 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

that would be the most dumb thing ever. and they don't

Well it's not there's no reason why they wouldn't sign a supply contract for x amount of years.

[GDRRiley]

5 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Well it's not there's no reason why they wouldn't sign a supply contract for x amount of years.

given how bad the relationship is at this point and apples relativity low volume I'd doubt they are making supply agreements long term.