COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Donut417]

42 minutes ago, Falkentyne said:

f people don't want to get vaccinated and boosted at this point and they do NOT have serious health conditions preventing them from doing it, just let them die off and have less competition on this planet for those who actually did their DAMN JOB.

The issue with that is they end up filling the hospitals. And those that have serious health issues outside of covid end up getting fucked. Because doctors might have to make a decision to put someone on life support or just let them die because all the equipment is already being used. Thats why the lockdowns are happening again, thats why they are pushing vaccinations, its all about keeping hospitalizations down. Things are only going to get worse as we are entering flu season. 

 

2 minutes ago, EDKTech said:

Just sayin guys, if y'all are vaxxed, and we aren't, we'll suffer... not you.

My body, my choice. I want to live by my God-given rights, without apo

Everyone suffers due to your decision. Because covid has a chance to put you in the hospital. And when more and more people pile in to hospitals that prevents people who need other important procedures from getting them, because all the beds are full of covid patients. I seen a post of some who was suppose to have brain surgery due to a tumor, but because of Covid and the hospitals being full the procedure was postponed indefinitely. So essential anti vaxxers may have killed that person. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts legally states can force vaccines on you. Until the Supreme Court changes this ruling, technically you have no right to refuse a vaccine if a state requires it, other than moving to a state that doesnt have a mandate. Just saying. 

[EphraimK]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

technically you have no right to refuse a vaccine if a state requires it, other than moving to a state that doesnt have a mandate. Just saying. 

I will fight for my God-given rights. You want to get the jab go ahead. I'm not holding you back.

 

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Everyone suffers due to your decision. Because covid has a chance to put you in the hospital. And when more and more people pile in to hospitals that prevents people who need other important procedures from getting them, because all the beds are full of covid patients. I seen a post of some who was suppose to have brain surgery due to a tumor, but because of Covid and the hospitals being full the procedure was postponed indefinitely. So essential anti vaxxers may have killed that person. 

How about the priority changes from a flu-like illness such as Covid to a brain tumor?

I've had Covid. I quarantined myself and now I'm immune. 

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, EDKTech said:

I'm immune. 

But your not. Covid has mutated multiple times. There has been no prove immunity to it. Further more I have read about people getting covid multiple times. 

 

1 hour ago, EDKTech said:

How about the priority changes from a flu-like illness such as Covid to a brain tumor?

So if a person with Covid needs a ventilator they shouldn't have one? Thats generally why they are in the hospital to begin with. We are talking the US, do you know how much it costs to go to a hospital? Most people are not going until they are on their death beds quite literally. 

 

1 hour ago, EDKTech said:

You want to get the jab go ahead

Ive had 3. Guess what? No side effects. I also get other vaccines like the Flu shot. I got my Hepatitis shot Ive gotten my tetanus shot. All because someone with a Medical Degree suggested I get them. Because I choose to take advice from people who are experts in the field of medicine instead of some dumb politician. 

[Falkentyne]

7 hours ago, Donut417 said:

The issue with that is they end up filling the hospitals. And those that have serious health issues outside of covid end up getting fucked. Because doctors might have to make a decision to put someone on life support or just let them die because all the equipment is already being used. Thats why the lockdowns are happening again, thats why they are pushing vaccinations, its all about keeping hospitalizations down. Things are only going to get worse as we are entering flu season. 

 

Everyone suffers due to your decision. Because covid has a chance to put you in the hospital. And when more and more people pile in to hospitals that prevents people who need other important procedures from getting them, because all the beds are full of covid patients. I seen a post of some who was suppose to have brain surgery due to a tumor, but because of Covid and the hospitals being full the procedure was postponed indefinitely. So essential anti vaxxers may have killed that person. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts legally states can force vaccines on you. Until the Supreme Court changes this ruling, technically you have no right to refuse a vaccine if a state requires it, other than moving to a state that doesnt have a mandate. Just saying. 

 

I'm fully aware of that but what are we going to do?  Destroy the economy even MORE than it already has been destroyed?  And create some major global unrest, combined with some possible wars some trigger heads are just waiting for an excuse to start?

 

Plus, some positive studies (to put a little positive spin on my anger right now) have shown that people who are fully vaccinated and come down with a breakthrough or mild infection end up even MORE resistant to future infections (aka super immunity).   Yes, there ARE people who are naturally immune to COVID.  Just like there are people who are naturally immune to HIV.  Doesn't mean that person is a normal sample of society.  They are an anomaly.  Like Neo.

 

The last mega shutdown caused a massive snowball of already budding supply issues, which was mostly previously contained when everyone was still properly working.  Just look at the video card, Console, DDR5 /Pmic supply issues and the automotive semiconductor crap and everything else affecting multiple sectors, even certain (non electrical) manufacturing staples.  The Ports in California are complete show of anarchy right now.  At this rate, not only will more shutdowns fuck things up to the point of no return, people WILL start rioting, people WILL start dying (and not of covid, school shooting OR Racism, this time) and then people who do NOT have covid and who do not have cars, resources (the poor are most vulnerable) are going to wind up getting KILLED when the big resource crunch happens.

 

COVID isn't going away, period.  At this point there are going to be some huge ethical dilemmas going on with issues that won't even be allowed on this forum?  You can make a global shutdown for another 6 months and COVID won't go away.  What are we going to do? Vax wild and domesticated animals?  The only way this is going to be managed is if 90%+ of the total population gets fully vaccinated (minus people who can NOT medically handle the vaccine).  Lockdowns aren't going to do anything except give us temporary "COVID is gone for awhile".  Did lockdowns eradicate the (ever mutating) Flu or Cold?  If no, what makes anyone think COVID will suddenly go away?

[Falkentyne]

7 hours ago, EDKTech said:

I will fight for my God-given rights. You want to get the jab go ahead. I'm not holding you back.

 

How about the priority changes from a flu-like illness such as Covid to a brain tumor?

I've had Covid. I quarantined myself and now I'm immune. 

Bullcrap man.  

Do you even read the news?

The first person in the USA who DIED OF OMICRON WAS UNVACCINATED AND ALREADY HAD COVID.  I guess he was immune to COVID also and aliens from Alpha Centuari vaporized his lungs with a hyperwave Particle Cannon they stole from the Umgah, after the Umgah stole it from the Yehat?

[WkdPaul]

13 hours ago, EDKTech said:

Just sayin guys, if y'all are vaxxed, and we aren't, we'll suffer... not you.

My body, my choice.

Yeah, no.

 

I and others can't get some treatment because of COVID and it's effect on the healthcare system.

 

So, no, your choice affect others, it's not freedom, it's selfishness.

 

13 hours ago, EDKTech said:

I want to live by my God-given rights, without apology.

Right...

 

A man was trapped in his house during a flood. He began praying to God to rescue him. He had a vision in his head of God’s hand reaching down from heaven and lifting him to safety. The water started to rise in his house. His neighbor urged him to leave and offered him a ride to safety. The man yelled back, “I am waiting for God to save me.” The neighbor then drove off in his pick-up truck.

The man continued to pray and hold on to his vision. As the water began rising in his house, he had to climb up to the roof. A boat came by with some people heading for safe ground. They yelled at the man to grab a rope they were ready to throw and take him to safety. He told them that he was waiting for God to save him. They shook their heads and moved on.

The man continued to pray, believing with all his heart that he would be saved by God. The floodwaters continued to rise. A helicopter flew by and a voice came over a loudspeaker offering to lower a ladder and take him off the roof. The man waved the helicopter away, shouting back that he was waiting for God to save him. The helicopter left. The flooding water came over the roof and caught him up and swept him away. He drowned.

When he reached heaven and asked, “God, why did you not save me? I believed in you with all my heart. Why did you let me drown?” God replied, “I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat, and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?

 

 

BTW, you're the drowning guy in that story.

[Master Disaster]

8 hours ago, EDKTech said:

Just sayin guys, if y'all are vaxxed, and we aren't, we'll suffer... not you.

Until you give it to someone else that is.

8 hours ago, EDKTech said:

My body, my choice. I want to live by my God-given rights, without apology.

 

I will fight for my God-given rights. You want to get the jab go ahead. I'm not holding you back.

Look, I respect your right to believe in religion, I honestly do (I do disagree with it) however these statements are complete idiocy.

 

For a start, god has not given you any rights. Care to quote the passage from the bible that says "thou say retain the right to endanger others"...

 

It is your body and your choice, right up to the point your choices start affecting other people. This is the reason why using drugs is generally frowned upon but not generally a serious crime while selling drugs to others is a serious crime.

 

Fighting for your individual rights means nothing when its put against the protection of the combined population.

8 hours ago, EDKTech said:

How about the priority changes from a flu-like illness such as Covid to a brain tumor?

Ever heard of the hippocratic oath?

8 hours ago, EDKTech said:

I've had Covid. I quarantined myself and now I'm immune. 

No, temporary immunity from exposure is not the same thing as being immune. You are not immune to variants and in a few months time you won't be immune to the strain you had either.

[Beerzerker]

29 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Until you give it to someone else that is.

Look, I respect your right to believe in religion, I honestly do (I do disagree with it) however these statements are complete idiocy.

 

For a start, god has not given you any rights. Care to quote the passage from the bible that says "thou say retain the right to endanger others"...

 

It is your body and your choice, right up to the point your choices start affecting other people. This is the reason why using drugs is generally frowned upon but not generally a serious crime while selling drugs to others is a serious crime.

 

Fighting for your individual rights means nothing when its put against the protection of the combined population.

Ever heard of the hippocratic oath?

No, temporary immunity from exposure is not the same thing as being immune. You are not immune to variants and in a few months time you won't be immune to the strain you had either.

This I will take issue with, the bolded part within the quote that is.
I've had it back in Feb of this year and 6-7 months later I still had the antibodies according to the tests ran, then foward two more months, still had them with that test and didn't have the illness either both times tested.

You CAN retain immunity if you are continually exposed, that means the body is still detecting and fighting it off.

There was also the thing about "Herd Immunity" the scientific community has said before.
What about that?
Does that count towards anything?
If they are right we'll be there at some point and it's been a fairly long time as far as any outbreaks go for it to be so by now, or at least in getting close to it.

And what good is a vaccine that you can take and still get it?
Either it gives you immunity or it doesn't and if it doesn't, that puts whether it even works into question - At least for some and TBH that's a fair way of thinking about it.
Point is if you have immunity, you have it and are of no greater risk than one that's had a shot vs one that's not with all else being the same related to if you have immunity or not.

Johns Hopkins Medical Prof Explains Natural COVID Immunity Is Very Strong | Citizens Journal
COVID-19: How long will 'natural immunity' last?
You'll note this is dependent on how much exposure is maintained and as long as it's been around, it's in the enviroment and not going anywhere, this much we do know.
Virtually everyone has been exposed at some point by now and the exposure continues, no way around this exposure if it's still a "Pandemic" as said. 

Already know many will disagree and that's fine.
I've had it, beaten it, had and still have the immunity aquired according to medical tests ran recently no less and I have no worries over it.

 

[tikker]

12 hours ago, EDKTech said:

Just sayin guys, if y'all are vaxxed, and we aren't, we'll suffer... not you.

My body, my choice. I want to live by my God-given rights, without apology.

Everyone suffers. The "my body, my choice" reasoning is fine as long as it indeed remains limited to your body. Cancer treatment, for example, affects only you. You're not going to give another person cancer because you don't get treated. In the case of a highly infectious disease however it's more an "everyone else, my choice" situation. By not getting vaccinated you are putting everyone around you at risk, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people pressure the healthcare system, amplify the amount by which the virus keeps going around or mutates and are what keeps driving the measures, because the governments still want to protect people. Bluntly said your god-given rights are to be born and to die, that's it.

 

I think most of us here, at least those who have roamed this planet for a few decades, will have had many vaccines since birth for a variety of diseases that range from terribly ill to potentially deadly if not treated. What has changed to cause such massive distrust in a vaccine from people now? Diseases have been completely eradicated or are now minor concerns thanks to vaccines. Meanwhile measles has made returns thanks to anti-vaxxers. It doesn't work the "why worry if you're vaccinated" way. That only works if the vast majority cooperates. Vaccination is a team effort. This way we're taking the extremely slow route to herd immunity, which is practically out of the question already within a reasonable time, while at the same time (as mentioned above) overburdening the health care system. Normal care in hospitals here is still reduced or postponed due to the pressure of COVID patients. Some are indicating that even critical care is not possible within short times, because of it.

 

[Edit] woops, missed there was a whole new page already, oh well, still my 2 cents.

[Donut417]

4 hours ago, Falkentyne said:

Destroy the economy even MORE than it already has been destroyed? 

The healthcare industry is on the verge of collapse. People are getting burnt out and getting sick of being abused. The more that cram in to hospitals the more that will put strain on an already over strained system. To be clear Im not advocating for more lock downs, those dont work. What I am saying is people need to stop taking the word of a corrupt politician and start listen to health authorities and take this shit serious. Another hard truth, I dont think mask mandates either at government levels or at individual business levels are going away EVER. I hate having to wear a mask everywhere I go, and guess what? I go even less places now. Outside the grocery store or picking up food I dont go out. I dont go to full restaurants hardly at all. I dont go to movie theaters. You know what that does? It hearts the economy, especially when enough people are doing it. Its not that im afraid of catching covid, because I dont give a shit. Its because I find wearing a mask for long periods of time uncomfortable. While I WILL do it, Im not going to do everything I did before because I dont like wearing one. 

 

2 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

There was also the thing about "Herd Immunity" the scientific community has said before.
What about that?

 That would have only been achieved if enough people got vaccinated and early on before covid started mutating. Im going to give you the hard truth, your getting a covid shot at least once a year from now on. 

 

 

 

[tikker]

2 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

This I will take issue with, the bolded part within the quote that is.
I've had it back in Feb of this year and 6-7 months later I still had the antibodies according to the tests ran, then foward two more months, still had them with that test and didn't have the illness either both times tested.

There's also the thing that antibodies are merely the simplest test to do. Them being gone or low doesn't immediately imply no immunity anymore. There's more to the immune system, such as the T-cells, that sort of remembers and kicks into gear much faster the second time it comes around or if a slightly different variant comes around. I don't have the source ready, so take this with a grain of salt if you will, but I've read a study that noted natural immunity be more effective against e.g. future strains than the currently vaccine induced immunity. (General note that this is not an excuse not to take the vaccine).

 

It's the same confusion that over time the vaccines see a drop in protection against infection, while their protection against severe complications remains high.

2 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

There was also the thing about "Herd Immunity" the scientific community has said before.
What about that?
Does that count towards anything?
If they are right we'll be there at some point and it's been a fairly long time as far as any outbreaks go for it to be so by now, or at least in getting close to it.

The scientific community aims for and wants herd immunity. People not getting vaccinated fucks that up. Herd immunity requires a high fraction of vaccinated or immune people, e.g. >80% for polio and >95% for measles [WHO]. For COVID the percentage required for herd immunity is not really known yet, but given that it's highly infectious I'd wager it's on the upper end of the spectrum. We're not there and people not taking the vaccines only slows that down.

[EphraimK]

4 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

Yeah, no.

 

I and others can't get some treatment because of COVID and it's effect on the healthcare system.

 

So, no, your choice affect others, it's not freedom, it's selfishness.

 

Right...

 

A man was trapped in his house during a flood. He began praying to God to rescue him. He had a vision in his head of God’s hand reaching down from heaven and lifting him to safety. The water started to rise in his house. His neighbor urged him to leave and offered him a ride to safety. The man yelled back, “I am waiting for God to save me.” The neighbor then drove off in his pick-up truck.

The man continued to pray and hold on to his vision. As the water began rising in his house, he had to climb up to the roof. A boat came by with some people heading for safe ground. They yelled at the man to grab a rope they were ready to throw and take him to safety. He told them that he was waiting for God to save him. They shook their heads and moved on.

The man continued to pray, believing with all his heart that he would be saved by God. The floodwaters continued to rise. A helicopter flew by and a voice came over a loudspeaker offering to lower a ladder and take him off the roof. The man waved the helicopter away, shouting back that he was waiting for God to save him. The helicopter left. The flooding water came over the roof and caught him up and swept him away. He drowned.

When he reached heaven and asked, “God, why did you not save me? I believed in you with all my heart. Why did you let me drown?” God replied, “I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat, and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?

 

 

BTW, you're the drowning guy in that story.

God says to not test hm. That man was not wise.

[WkdPaul]

34 minutes ago, EDKTech said:

That man was not wise.

agreed...

 

 

A man and his family were quarantined in their house during a pandemic. That night the father prayed to God for help to keep him and his family healthy.

 

So that next day, a government official give a speech with health officials, telling the man how to wash his hands, to only go out when necessary for supplies, to not have large gatherings, and to practice social distancing. They said these things will help keep you healthy, your family healthy and our state healthy and safe.

 

The fellow shouted at the TV, “God is going to protect me and my family!” That night, the man prayed again.

 

The next day, the Mayor shut down the city. He gave a press conference, and had other experts give similar advice as the other government officials had given.

 

Later that day, local and national news professionals announced different new vaccines and that getting them was important. That night, once again the man prayed.

 

To all this, the man said, “I’m praying to God and he is going to save me and my family. I have faith.”

 

The weekend came and the man and his family went to church on Sunday, and even out to out to eat afterward. While on their way to church, another public update came on the radio as breaking news. Health officials and even the radio talk personality were telling people to stay home. The Family left the Church after the service, feeling good. That evening, the man ignored social media posts, and even posted on social media himself how “this is just like the flu, and God would care for us!”

 

A couple of weeks passed, and the man began feeling ill. He was diagnosed with Covid-19 and died. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God. The man exclaimed, “I had faith in You, but You didn’t save me! You let me die! I just don’t understand why!”

 

To the man, God replied, “I sent you government officials, a Mayor, Doctors, Nurses, Health officials, radio and television personalities, friends on Facebook telling you to get vaccinated and to take precautions. What more did you expect, what else did you want?"

 

 

God helps those who help themselves.

[dalekphalm]

5 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

And what good is a vaccine that you can take and still get it?

I take strong exception to this statement - no vaccine has ever been 100% effective. There will always be some percentage of breakthrough infections.

5 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Either it gives you immunity or it doesn't and if it doesn't, that puts whether it even works into question - At least for some and TBH that's a fair way of thinking about it.

That's not a fair way of thinking about it. That's an uneducated way to think about it.

 

The vaccines work. They work on numerous levels.

1. You're less likely to be infected, even if there's a small chance you still could

2. When infected, the illness generally ends much quicker, therefore leaving a much smaller window for you to infect others

3. When infected, the vaccine significantly reduces the effects of infection, particularly and importantly including hospitalization and death

 

Even if what you say is true, and that "vaccinated can still get it", there's still a very compelling reason to get vaccinated.

5 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Point is if you have immunity, you have it and are of no greater risk than one that's had a shot vs one that's not with all else being the same related to if you have immunity or not.

Immunity isn't that simple. People keep treating this like a black and white "either you're immune or you're not", and that might be a convenient way to think about it, but it's the wrong way to think about it.

 

Now, having already had COVID-19? Yes, that gives you an edge against someone who has never had it. Does that make you as well protected as someone vaccinated? The jury is still out on that.

 

Generally speaking, if you'd have it, health experts recommend getting at least a partial vaccine dose (for example, one series out of a 2-series vaccine) to help boost that natural "immunity" from having had it. Additionally, your immunity may be strain specific, whereas the vaccines seem to be fairly strain agnostic for the most part - even providing protection against Omicron and Delta to varying degrees.

[Quackers101]

32 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Even if what you say is true, and that "vaccinated can still get it", there's still a very compelling reason to get vaccinated.

Immunity isn't that simple. People keep treating this like a black and white "either you're immune or you're not", and that might be a convenient way to think about it, but it's the wrong way to think about it.

also that vaccination even if you have strong reaction to the virus, it's still somewhat likely the vaccines are going to help. although it is a bit worrying on how much protection some of this actually gives. Mixing vaccines? certain types of vaccines? Need update it all the time?

32 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Generally speaking, if you'd have it, health experts recommend getting at least a partial vaccine dose (for example, one series out of a 2-series vaccine) to help boost that natural "immunity" from having had it. Additionally, your immunity may be strain specific, whereas the vaccines seem to be fairly strain agnostic for the most part - even providing protection against Omicron and Delta to varying degrees.

my only annoyance to that, is when they start to recommend 1 dose vaccines for each and every new mutation. a way to push some nonsense during a global pandemic, while it can be good at times, but if they start to mess with what version of their vaccine is accepted for use or not and getting through the system faster? also if it's a focus on making big deals than releasing a good vaccine that does a better job?

 

then again I don't know what they prioritize right now, but it kinda suck when you see articles that is not be true?

about "we know about a better solution that will solve everything", and maybe more titles like that pushed around on social media, which can make people feel doubtful + the various other vaccine versions they are going to be expected to take.

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

also that vaccination even if you have strong reaction to the virus, it's still somewhat likely the vaccines are going to help. although it is a bit worrying on how much protection some of this actually gives. Mixing vaccines? certain types of vaccines? Need update it all the time?

Mixing vaccines heavily depends on the type of vaccine. mRNA vaccines have been shown to be able to be mixed while still providing protection (some studies show increased protection, even).

 

For example, I received 1st dose Moderna, 2nd dose Pfizer.

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

my only annoyance to that, is when they start to recommend 1 dose vaccines for each and every new mutation. a way to push some nonsense during a global pandemic, while it can be good at times, but if they start to mess with what version of their vaccine is accepted for use or not and getting through the system faster? also if it's a focus on making big deals than releasing a good vaccine that does a better job?

So far, I don't think any strain specific vaccine has been authorized anywhere, has it? Certainly not in Canada, at any rate.

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

then again I don't know what they prioritize right now, but it kinda suck when you see articles that is not be true?

about "we know about a better solution that will solve everything", and maybe more titles like that pushed around on social media, which can make people feel doubtful + the various other vaccine versions they are going to be expected to take.

Articles written by non-infectious disease experts are often misleading or not clear. I would stick as close to the scientific sources as you can.

[Quackers101]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

So far, I don't think any strain specific vaccine has been authorized anywhere, has it? Certainly not in Canada, at any rate.

I guess not. I guess most has been talked about currently is for emergency use.

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Articles written by non-infectious disease experts are often misleading or not clear. I would stick as close to the scientific sources as you can.

sure, just wanted to rant about stuff that make people feel different about the current situation they are in. that it doesn't need to be true or not, just that it goes on that emotion created by other news like one bad after another and the some areas that might feel it's not in controlled even if vaccinated. Going back to how it was in the beginning and losing hope of the current state of the pandemic? or something like that. just me ranting away.

[Beerzerker]

6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

The vaccines work. They work on numerous levels.

1. You're less likely to be infected, even if there's a small chance you still could

2. When infected, the illness generally ends much quicker, therefore leaving a much smaller window for you to infect others

3. When infected, the vaccine significantly reduces the effects of infection, particularly and importantly including hospitalization and death

 

Even if what you say is true, and that "vaccinated can still get it", there's still a very compelling reason to get vaccinated.

I respect your thoughts on this but I too must have a strong exception to at least a part of your statement, namely with the numbered responses.

1: Yes, this is true.

2: That's a variable because it's due to "The individual" as in how robust their immune system is in the first place. Some folks tend to get sick, some tend to stay healthy and rarely, if ever get sick at all so thats the variable in play with this.
Some have taken the shot and were just fine, some have taken it and come down with it, some on top of that have died because of it inspite of taking the shot - The vaccine made NO difference in the outcome of their situation and it's at least a few cases it's even been said it may have been the root cause of their demise period.

Remember any vaccine is comprised of a weakened strain of the disease it's for but if the immune system of a given person is rather weak things can go the other way. The induced strain is not "Dead", but it's a weakened form of it instead so it's still alive and can still have a bad effect, depending on the exact person that got the shot.
Even part of your own statement throws some doubt on it:

 

6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Now, having already had COVID-19? Yes, that gives you an edge against someone who has never had it. Does that make you as well protected as someone vaccinated? The jury is still out on that.

So you really can't "Say" whether one like myself is as well off or not as someone that's been vaxxed.
 

3: Now this is where I have an issue.
The vaccine, or any vacccine itself does NOT kill or act against a disease itself.
It's not an antibiotic, doesn't act or behave like one and by the wording used you expressed it as if it was.
The vaccine itself allows the body to detect and start making antibodies against it, it does nothing vs the disease like an antibiotic does for what it's used against. Penicillin for example actively goes after and destroys an infection because it's literal poison to it so it will destroy the infection it's for once it comes in contact with it.
A vaccine does not have this effect, it simply does as described so there is no way a vaccine in itself reduces anything, all that is up to the body and it's own immune system to take on and effectiveness goes back to point #2 which no one can do anything about.

The very last part of this is true or you woudn't have people freaking out about "Still getting it" after taking the shot. They say an unvaccinated person can give it to a vaccinated person but here's the thing: 
If the vaccine was working as said there would be little to worry about it but the fact so many are saying this and even acting on it says (To me at least) not only it's true but the vaccine doesn't work as well as we've been told it does. 
If you have antibodies, your own body is actively destroying it all along regardless of how you got it making the chance of passing it along no more or less probrable between the two.

And speaking of vaccines and variants, how is it that the "Original" vaccine is still "Good" against all strains (Thats what they say) when these new strains are "differen"t - And then they say because of that, you should get another shot because you can still get it even if vaccinated previously?

All that doesn't add up.
 

And I'll close this by saying with all the varying things about it, too much is in contradiction about the "Science" we've been told and I'm not playing that game or offering myself up as just another guinea pig. 

9 hours ago, Donut417 said:

That would have only been achieved if enough people got vaccinated and early on before covid started mutating. Im going to give you the hard truth, your getting a covid shot at least once a year from now on. 

And I'll give you an even harder truth - That's up to me, not you.

[Kilrah]

6 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Remember any vaccine is comprised of a weakened strain of the disease

This is completely wrong for the mRNA-based vaccines. 

 

 

[IkeaGnome]

10 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Remember any vaccine is comprised of a weakened strain of the disease it's for

 

10 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

And speaking of vaccines and variants, how is it that the "Original" vaccine is still "Good" against all strains

At least in the case of the mRNA vaccines, the first isn't true. The vaccine contains the "recipe" for the spike proteins in COVID. Your body makes the spike protein, realizes it's not supposed to be there and attacks it. Learns how to respond to it. The spike protein it's self isn't dangerous or what causes you to be sick. It's what latches the virus to your cells. 

If your immune systems attacks the spike protein, you still have COVID, you just aren't as "infected" with it or symptomatic. 

That's also how we got the vaccine so fast. We aren't teaching our bodies to identify and attack COVID like we do with the flu. Just the protein that COVID uses to latch to your cells. This is why people that have the vaccine can be asymptomatic, but carry. You have COVID, it just doesn't have a way to attack your body. 

Until COVID doesn't use the spike protein (at that point, I think it'd technically be a different virus), mRNA will have some efficacy against COVID strains. 

mRNA vaccines =/= live attenuated vaccines like the flu

[Beerzerker]

3 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

 

At least in the case of the mRNA vaccines, the first isn't true. The vaccine contains the "recipe" for the spike proteins in COVID. Your body makes the spike protein, realizes it's not supposed to be there and attacks it. Learns how to respond to it. The spike protein it's self isn't dangerous or what causes you to be sick. It's what latches the virus to your cells. 

If your immune systems attacks the spike protein, you still have COVID, you just aren't as "infected" with it or symptomatic. 

That's also how we got the vaccine so fast. We aren't teaching our bodies to identify and attack COVID like we do with the flu. Just the protein that COVID uses to latch to your cells. This is why people that have the vaccine can be asymptomatic, but carry. You have COVID, it just doesn't have a way to attack your body. 

Until COVID doesn't use the spike protein (at that point, I think it'd technically be a different virus), mRNA will have some efficacy against COVID strains. 

Thanks for that - Seriously.

[IkeaGnome]

Just now, Beerzerker said:

Thanks for that - Seriously.

Just for reference, I typically don't get shots. 

I get my tetanus when needed. Even on the ambulance and fire truck I didn't get the flu shot. I took the flu vaccine once and got really sick. 

While I did have side effects, mine weren't nearly as bad as others' for the COVID shots(results may vary from person to person). Second shot, I was a bit sore and had a slight fever the next day. Co worker was racked out in his bunk at camp for the better part of two days. 

 

I know there's a lot of questions around the COVID vaccine. At the end of the day, you're not comfortable getting it, your not going to end up getting it. There's been a lot of....things... around it, especially here in the states that have put people off of it without looking into it. (I won't go into that stuff... blah blah blah politics ban). 

There's been a lot of bad myths around it. Before I got my shot, I spent the better part of my free time just going through the ingredients list. Down to the antifreze myth stemming from the inclusion of polyethylene glycol. We hear glycol, we think antifreeze. The PEG in the vaccine is far off from antifreeze, 4 of 4 molecules are different. That's used as a stabilizer for (I haven't done this research in over a year, so I might be a bit off) the part of the vaccine that actually carries the mRNA. 

Unfortunately, it's a case of "the loudest are heard first" which turned into a lot of misinformation about the vaccines. Even if you don't plan on getting it, I'd recommend reading up on them for an hour or so.

They're actually really impressive vaccines. They used technology we've had, but haven't had a use for to get a vaccine out in record time. 

[Andreas Lilja]

Big announcement for Quebec tomorrow. 

 

Went from 800-1k cases a day to 5k.

 

Christmas probably cancelled, current plan was maximum 10 people per inside gathering. 

[tikker]

59 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Remember any vaccine is comprised of a weakened strain of the disease it's for but if the immune system of a given person is rather weak things can go the other way. The induced strain is not "Dead", but it's a weakened form of it instead so it's still alive and can still have a bad effect, depending on the exact person that got the shot.

mRNA vaccines do not contain a weakened version. They are a "manual" so to say and that's it. It's also not really experimental as many like to claim, in that it's a technology that has been researced for decades [Nature]. It is one of the first times it's applied on such a massive scale though and demonstrates society's capabilities if basically all the world's efforts are focussed on a single thing. That huge amount of money and attention put its implementation at warpspeed. They're very interesting as updating the vaccine would in principle be as "simple" as changing the manual and you're good to go.

59 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

3: Now this is where I have an issue.
The vaccine, or any vacccine itself does NOT kill or act against a disease itself.
It's not an antibiotic, doesn't act or behave like one and by the wording used you expressed it as if it was.
The vaccine itself allows the body to detect and start making antibodies against it, it does nothing vs the disease like an antibiotic does for what it's used against. Penicillin for example actively goes after and destroys an infection because it's literal poison to it so it will destroy the infection it's for once it comes in contact with it.
A vaccine does not have this effect, it simply does as described so there is no way a vaccine in itself reduces anything, all that is up to the body and it's own immune system to take on and effectiveness goes back to point #2 which no one can do anything about.

A vaccine teaches your body how to generate antibodies, making it so your body knows how to respond to the virus in the future. That is what makes the difference between getting deathly ill, hoping for survival and having a degree of immunity afterwards and already having a degree of immunity before ever getting infected, so that your body can already fight it when you inevitably do. Yes there is a small group of people that cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons and there's a small group of people for which it won't work as well, but vaccines are statistically a safer way of obtaining immunity than going through the disease.

 

You are completely correct in your antibiotic reasoning that once you have COVID and/or are on the ICU there is no point in getting shot to counteract it at that moment, because your body is already fighting it to the best of its abilities and exactly because it's not like an antibiotic a vaccine will not help there. A vaccine has to be given preventively so your defenses can be built up.

59 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

The very last part of this is true or you woudn't have people freaking out about "Still getting it" after taking the shot. They say an unvaccinated person can give it to a vaccinated person but here's the thing: 
If the vaccine was working as said there would be little to worry about it but the fact so many are saying this and even acting on it says (To me at least) not only it's true but the vaccine doesn't work as well as we've been told it does. 
If you have antibodies, your own body is actively destroying it all along regardless of how you got it making the chance of passing it along no more or less probrable between the two.

That is correct. Antibodies are antibodies. There are even studies that seem to see hints of natural infection leading to better immune system memory than vaccines. That does not mean the vaccines are unecessary or that they don't work though. We can see that they work great. The reason that not getting vaccinated is worrysome is because that allows for it to spread more and faster and puts pressure on health care systems. Vaccines aren't always 100% effective, but they also don't need to be because they aren't binary. They still protect significantly against severe complications.

59 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

And speaking of vaccines and variants, how is it that the "Original" vaccine is still "Good" against all strains (Thats what they say) when these new strains are "differen"t - And then they say because of that, you should get another shot because you can still get it even if vaccinated previously?

All that doesn't add up.

The original vaccine is still good against new strains, because the mutations are not a completely new virus (thankfully). It's a slightly different version, but fundamentally mostly similar, so your body's immune system (which is more than just antibodies) is still able to recognise it. Part of the reason why the omicron variant is concerning is because it has a lot of mutations comparatively (order 50 whereas e.g. delta only had of order 10-20), the majority of which are on the spike protein which is the bit that allows infection and is what vaccines target [BMJ]. Omicron therefore has a real possibility of evading current vaccines because it's so markedly different. Combine that with it's apparent increased infectiousness and you have a recipe where the current vaccines won't work as well.

 

A nice website to keep track of all the strains is Nextstrain. You can visualise the lineage of each known variant there. What it shows, as explained in this tweet, is that omicron doesn't come from a current variant, but from a completely different one.

It's similar to why there is a new flu shot every year. The flu virus mutates so rapidly that last year's vaccine and the antibodies generated from it literally don't match the new virus (well enough) anymore.

59 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

And I'll close this by saying with all the varying things about it, too much is in contradiction about the "Science" we've been told and I'm not playing that game or offering myself up as just another guinea pig. 

Modern (western) society hasn't really dealth with an event like this in a long time, so we are used to the viruses and vaccines for most things being known, under control and readily available.  What you and the entire world with you are seeing now is the reality of cutting edge science and how science deals with unknowns. We don't have the answers and our honest conclusions are that we don't know a lot of things. However, we will know with time and we're doing the best we can to make that time as short as possible. Unfortunately, outwardly saying "we don't know yet" doesn't typically inspire confidence in people even if it's the honest truth given the knowledge we have.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Beerzerker said:

And I'll give you an even harder truth - That's up to me, not you.

According to the Supreme Court decision in 1905 its up to your governor. Until the Supreme Court changes that ruling legally state governors could impose punishments on people not getting vaccinated. So put that in to the bank. Feel fortunate that most of these people dont have the spine to do this.