COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[IkeaGnome]

4 hours ago, sub68 said:

I don't think that's COVID it didn't come in the us until April of 2020.

Probably some respatory problem

 

3 hours ago, tikker said:

 I've talked to people as well that were very ill after travelling just before COVID "officially" had spread here significantly. Similarly from tests the omicron variant seems to have been in my country in early November already, briefly after South Africa reported it.

A little personal anecdote here. 

I catch pneumonia every winter when the weather gets cold. December of 2019 I had pneumonia like I never had before. In bed for my entire 2 weeks off just about. We had quite a few people here at work come down with that same sickness. Fast forward to April. Everyone on site gets a COVID antibody test minus the people who hadn't had "confirmed" COVID cases. A whole bunch of us had confirmed antibodies. Everyone who came down with the December sickness had them.  

[Kid.Lazer]

I'm 100% sure I'm not going to change anyone's minds, but to all those who think the vaccine is perfectly safe, here you go: I personally know of 5 people in my social circle that had massive heart attacks within 24 hours of being jabbed. 3 of them are now dead and the remaining 2 are in bad shape. So don't tell me "oh, it's fine!" because that is untrue.

 

Also, the whole lumping of people like myself who are apprehensive as "anti-vaxxers" is very disingenuous. I fully support the use of real vaccines. But with this monstrosity, we're up to what, booster number 3 within a scant 2 years? They have very little effect if you're honest, and there's no end in sight to how many boosters are required. Furthermore, my neighbor across the street is a true anti-vaxxer, claiming they cause autism. But then the covid vaccine hit the market and she was first in line for herself and her children. You tell me who's more nuts...

[tikker]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

 

A little personal anecdote here. 

I catch pneumonia every winter when the weather gets cold. December of 2019 I had pneumonia like I never had before. In bed for my entire 2 weeks off just about. We had quite a few people here at work come down with that same sickness. Fast forward to April. Everyone on site gets a COVID antibody test minus the people who hadn't had "confirmed" COVID cases. A whole bunch of us had confirmed antibodies. Everyone who came down with the December sickness had them.  

  Sounds familiar to the stories I heard. Bed bound, could hardly function for like 1-2 weeks. There was no antibody test or anything, but the unofficial conclusion is also COVID.

53 minutes ago, Kid.Lazer said:

I'm 100% sure I'm not going to change anyone's minds, but to all those who think the vaccine is perfectly safe, here you go: I personally know of 5 people in my social circle that had massive heart attacks within 24 hours of being jabbed. 3 of them are now dead and the remaining 2 are in bad shape. So don't tell me "oh, it's fine!" because that is untrue.

That is very unfortunate and I'm sorry for your loss. Feel free to not answer this, but which vaccine did they get and was it medically confirmed that they died as a direct consequence from the vaccine and not due to e.g. underlying health issues? That is important here as that may have put them in certain risk groups.

 

Nobody that believes and understands the science of the vaccine is denying that those things happen, however. We know that a small fraction of people can suffer inflamation of the heart muscle/sack or arrythmia from the mRNA vaccines for people under 40. Myocarditis seems to occur an extra 0.0001% to 0.0006% of cases after one of the vaccines, compared to an extra 0.004% of cases as a consquence of a positive COVID test. That is 40 extra cases per 1,000,000 people from COVID infection versus 1-6 extra cases per 1,000,000 people from a vaccination [Patone et al. 2021, Nature Medicine]. This means, for example, 17-18 extra people in the Netherlands would suffer from myocarditis due to the vaccine while 680-720 extra unvaccinated people would suffer it from a COVID infection.

 

That low risk from the vaccine compared to the risk from the virus is why vaccination is still recommended. Because of the scale that we are vaccinating you will see these cases appear seemingly often.

53 minutes ago, Kid.Lazer said:

Also, the whole lumping of people like myself who are apprehensive as "anti-vaxxers" is very disingenuous. I fully support the use of real vaccines. But with this monstrosity, we're up to what, booster number 3 within a scant 2 years?

Let me ask this then: do you view the yearly flu shot with the same apprehension? That is effectively the same situation, just with a different virus.

 

Why do you not see this as a real vaccine? The reason why we need boosters is because it's a new virus that is constantly mutating. The reason we could get a vaccine up and running so quickly is because the mRNA technology isn't new nor experimental and because it "luckily" was a SARS coronavirus, which we already knew stuff about. We also simply don't yet know the full efficacy of the vaccine in terms of how long your immunity lasts nor do we really know how well and long your immunity after an infection lasts yet. That does not mean the vaccine doesn't work or is a "monstrosity". It's the same reason why the flu shot gets updated every year. The virus changes, so the vaccine has to follow suit. Problem being that COVID is more serious than the flu.

53 minutes ago, Kid.Lazer said:

They have very little effect if you're honest, and there's no end in sight to how many boosters are required.

The first part is factually wrong. Vaccines and the immune system are compliated. No vaccine is 100% effecitve. The COVID vaccines are very effective at keeping people out of hospitals and protecting the from severe complications so far [CDC].

 

The second part is true. There is a chance this will become a yearly thing like the flu, for which a booster will be made available every year or sooner, depending on how quickly it keeps mutating. Just like the flu shot.

53 minutes ago, Kid.Lazer said:

Furthermore, my neighbor across the street is a true anti-vaxxer, claiming they cause autism. But then the covid vaccine hit the market and she was first in line for herself and her children. You tell me who's more nuts...

No reasonable person will call you nuts for being worried abou the vaccine. Statistically speaking the risks are low and outweigh the benefits. That is what we reason on. Nonetheless it's unfortunate that you had to experience the negative side of those statistics so close to home.

[WkdPaul]

58 minutes ago, tikker said:

No reasonable person will call you nuts for being worried abou the vaccine. Statistically speaking the risks are low and outweigh the benefits. That is what we reason on. Nonetheless it's unfortunate that you had to experience the negative side of those statistics so close to home.

Totally, being vaccine hesitant is perfectly reasonable, especially if like him, you see disproportionate amount of side effects.

 

But like you mentioned, you're far more at risk with COVID. Seeing as he saw that many cases of heart attacks around him give the impression there's other things at play (hereditary heart problems come to mind), and if you have people in your family with heart problems, then they're 1000% better to take a chance with the vaccine than with COVID, one thing that people seem to have missed, is that COVID is a vascular disease, not a respiratory one.

 

If I had heart problems, I would no doubt take the vaccine instead of taking my chance with COVID.

[Quackers101]

6 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

If I had heart problems, I would no doubt take the vaccine instead of taking my chance with COVID.

even if vaccines could have a higher rate (depends on vaccine and age) for that compared to covid?

but if everything goes well with vaccination, then by that point, covid is worse.

[tikker]

19 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

Totally, being vaccine hesitant is perfectly reasonable, especially if like him, you see disproportionate amount of side effects.

 

But like you mentioned, you're far more at risk with COVID. Seeing as he saw that many cases of heart attacks around him give the impression there's other things at play (hereditary heart problems come to mind), and if you have people in your family with heart problems, then they're 1000% better to take a chance with the vaccine than with COVID, one thing that people seem to have missed, is that COVID is a vascular disease, not a respiratory one.

 

If I had heart problems, I would no doubt take the vaccine instead of taking my chance with COVID.

It also doesn't help that it's caused by a SARS virus where the R literally stands for respiratory. Talk about a virus in disguise. I must say, between all the press conferences there is little to no attention to what COVID actually is. Only that it can be deadly and needs to be stopped. That might have an adverse effect as well.

13 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

even if vaccines could have a higher rate (depends on vaccine and age) for that compared to covid?

but if everything goes well with vaccination, then by that point, covid is worse.

That's a false dilemma. The vaccine doesn't have a higher rate compared to COVID. If it did significantly then the choice would of course be made, or at least weighed, differently. You could think of a scenario where the vaccine would have a slightly higher chance of causing it than COVID itself. By now we are all but guaranteed to catch COVID at some point though, maybe even multiple times. The question then becomes whether you risk the slight increase in a potential heart attack due to the vaccine to reduce the chances on everything caused by the virus you are highly likely to get by a factor of 10.

 

It's not like rabies, which is certain death if you don't get the vaccine, but you are unlikely enough to contract it that (constant) vaccination isn't necessary.

[Beerzerker]

11 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

even if vaccines could have a higher rate (depends on vaccine and age) for that compared to covid?

but if everything goes well with vaccination, then by that point, covid is worse.

All I can say about that is I do have heart problems (2 heart attacks) and in my case it becomes an issue of risk vs benefit.
Even now there are days I feel like total crap because of it, nothing I can do about it.

The previous posts about it is me trying to make sense of all the conflicting things I've heard and seen but understand - I've NEVER said not to at any point.
If you feel like it's worth the risk it's yours to take but the reported side-effects are real, even in some folks that's young and healthy too.

I'm like many, too much of it is not sounding right and add the fact of my situation, being what it is and that equals "I'll take my chances" esp when you consider I've already had it before (Covid) and it's been proven medically, twice no less within the last few months I do have the anti-bodies against it.

I hope that clears it up for you guys - I may have sounded like an anti-vaxxer before but in truth I'm not.
If you want it or think you need it, go for it.
 

[adarw]

if they died from the vaccine i could quite literary grantee that they would have died from Covid. after the vaccine its like one of those good day with Covid, your a bit sick for a day, coivd? its really annoying and is worse maybe by like 10x

 

 

sorry for your loss, its true that the vaccine isnt the safest, but if we want to get rid of it once in for all i think we should either take the vaccine or stay at home.

 

@sub68yea thats true science isnt always right.

[Quackers101]

15 minutes ago, tikker said:

That's a false dilemma. The vaccine doesn't have a higher rate compared to COVID.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html

https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2021/myocarditis-in-boys-and-young-men-can-occur-more-often-after-the-spikevax-v/

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-17/moderna-shot-had-more-heart-risk-than-pfizer-s-in-danish-study

Quote

About 4.2 people per 100,000 who got the Moderna vaccine developed myocarditis or myopericarditis within 28 days of vaccination, with the highest risk seen in those age 12 to 39 and after people received their second doses

 

With the Pfizer shot, meanwhile, 1.4 people per 100,000 developed the rare heart side effects, although a heightened risk was observed in women, the study said. 

 

The greater health risks by far were seen in the unvaccinated, who, among other things, had a 14-fold increased risk of cardiac arrest and death in the 28 days following a positive test

Although some heart issues do be noted, might just be a short term reaction, unlike long covid. Although both can have some form of deadliness to it in this area.

Quote

Overall the data showed that COVID causes more heart problems compared to vaccines.

woops. but yeah, some parts risks that we can hopefully reduce. deaths by both covid or vaccines should be tried to be reduced.

sorry, thought about something else when saying that @tikker should have clarified my point.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Quackers101

[tikker]

31 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

All I can say about that is I do have heart problems (2 heart attacks) and in my case it becomes an issue of risk vs benefit.
Even now there are days I feel like total crap because of it, nothing I can do about it.

The previous posts about it is me trying to make sense of all the conflicting things I've heard and seen but understand - I've NEVER said not to at any point.
If you feel like it's worth the risk it's yours to take but the reported side-effects are real, even in some folks that's young and healthy too.

I'm like many, too much of it is not sounding right and add the fact of my situation, being what it is and that equals "I'll take my chances" esp when you consider I've already had it before (Covid) and it's been proven medically, twice no less within the last few months I do have the anti-bodies against it.

I hope that clears it up for you guys - I may have sounded like an anti-vaxxer before but in truth I'm not.
If you want it or think you need it, go for it.
 

See heart conditions like that are exactly those type of groups that put you at increased risk and which make you think twice and thrice. Given that you've survived it at least once you're also not unprotected, so good on you.

28 minutes ago, adarw said:

sorry for your loss, its true that the vaccine isnt the safest, but if we want to get rid of it once in for all i think we should either take the vaccine or stay at home.

"isn't the safest" is misleading wording in my opinion. It's safe, otherwise we'd see people dropping left and right, but there simply are risks. Just like getting into your car in the morning, boarding a plane etc. The problem with odds is that they don't care about absolute numbers whereas we mainly look at absolute numbers to judge how risky we consider something. Even at the above mentioned 6 per million increase due to vaccination, that means if you vaccinated 8 billion people you would statistically expect 48,000 people to suffer it from the vaccine. As humans we would see "oh no 48 THOUSAND people died from the vaccine", while in reality that would amount to 0.0006% of the amount of administered vaccines with the other 8 billion people, or 99.9994% of people being fine.

 

Something else very important is that random doesn't work the way we unconciously expect it to either, because we excel at pattern recognition. The above example of 5 of their friends either dying or getting severe complications from the vaccine can still be perfectly in line with randomness. A less morbid example is why Spotify's "random" shuffle isn't random.

  

23 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

woops. but yeah, some parts risks that we can hopefully reduce. deaths by both covid or vaccines should be tried to be reduced.

sorry, thought about something else when saying that @tikker should have clarified my point.

Those points are correct, there is an increased risk. The nuance is that the increase in risk by COVID is much higher and that the vaccine induced increase is low. That's where the all-but-certain point of getting infected comes in. We're continually potentially exposed to the virus everywhere we go, so it's also not that 1-in-something-tiny chance of getting it or one off encounter anymore. If something had a 1 in 100 chance of happening you wouldn't think much of it (not saying that's the chance of encountering COVID), but over the course of a year you'd expect it to have happened 3 times on average.

[Andreas Lilja]

Québec Premier just said cases are literally over 9000

[Quackers101]

WHO going on a rant for masks

 

[tkitch]

One thing a lot of people are confused by, is the "The vaccine/drug increases the chance of <BADNESS> by 400%!"

Yes, true statement.  But it doesn't work the way most people think it works.

 

So, lets take Cardiovascular disease, which covers a number of heart related issues, including heart attacks and other things.

It generally has a death rate of about 200 people per 100,000 / year.  Nothing to sneeze at, as that's a significant statistic.

Now, that means it causes slightly over 0.5 deaths per 100,000 people per day.

So, if the vaccine causes an 800% increase?  That makes it about 4 people per day per 100,000.  Or 1 person per 25,000.

 

The chances of you being a 1:25,000?  Really fucking low. 

For comparison:  In a given year the odds of dying in a car crash are about 1:8,500, so about 3 times as likely.  And you probably don't think twice about getting in a car to drive, do you?

 

Also, the increased chance of side effects in most vaccines / drugs is transitory.  It's about 1 month for the COVID shots.  So the "increased risk" lasts for a month, and then your odds go back to what they were before you got the shot.  

 

So, yeah, even with "increased risks" of certain problems, the drugs are safe.

[wseaton]

At this point I'm done with media reporting on Omicron because the media snake is starting to eat its own tail. Covid 19, just like all prior respiratory pandemics evolves towards higher transmissability but lower lethality. That's what viruses do. They want to spread. Dead people or victims on respirators can't spread it. Not what the virus wants. To be perfectly technical about it Covid 19 doesn't kill people. Clotting in the lungs caused by a malfunctioning immunal response (cytokene storm) is what causes deaths. Even though I consider getting vaccinated a civic duty its a fact that vaccinations dont stop the spread of covid. Vaccinations reduce the chance of complications. We are now in the endemic phase of the virus, but 'pandemic' sounds cooler and more ominous and keeps news ratings higher. Pretty much everybody in my family has tested positive for covid at some point. Everybody vaccinated and only minor symptoms. Eventually insurance companies will settle the debacle by either drastically raising rates or refusing to cover un vaccinated people. If you refuse to get vaccinated and end up in the hospital vaccinated people shouldn't foot the bill. Why do anti jabbers then want the help of a doctor when they were previously ignoring their advice?

[tkitch]

1 hour ago, wseaton said:

At this point I'm done with media reporting on Omicron because the media snake is starting to eat its own tail. Covid 19, just like all prior respiratory pandemics evolves towards higher transmissability but lower lethality. That's what viruses do. They want to spread. Dead people or victims on respirators can't spread it. Not what the virus wants. To be perfectly technical about it Covid 19 doesn't kill people. Clotting in the lungs caused by a malfunctioning immunal response (cytokene storm) is what causes deaths. Even though I consider getting vaccinated a civic duty its a fact that vaccinations dont stop the spread of covid. Vaccinations reduce the chance of complications. We are now in the endemic phase of the virus, but 'pandemic' sounds cooler and more ominous and keeps news ratings higher. Pretty much everybody in my family has tested positive for covid at some point. Everybody vaccinated and only minor symptoms. Eventually insurance companies will settle the debacle by either drastically raising rates or refusing to cover un vaccinated people. If you refuse to get vaccinated and end up in the hospital vaccinated people shouldn't foot the bill. Why do anti jabbers then want the help of a doctor when they were previously ignoring their advice?

Disagree, kinda.

 

We could be in the Endemic phase, at least in the US, if we had a 90%+ vaccination rate, and people weren't whiny bitches about boosters.  

 

The only reason we're still dealing with hospitals being overwhelmed is because of anti-vaxxers.  Without that, we'd still have breakthroughs and hospitalizations, but it would absolutely NOT be anywhere near the level we're dealing with now.  

[WkdPaul]

1 hour ago, tkitch said:

*snip*

One thing I hate about using % when calculating risks, symptoms and other factors is that vulgarization will often said "double or triple" without giving any context.
I remember reading an article about pregnancy risks and one of the common argument regarding risk with age (can't remember the details) was that a specific risk doubled past a certain age, but if you looked at the stats, it went from 0.5%, to 1% ... so yeah, that's double, but that's not an accurate way of handing out information to people with those risk factors. Telling them " you go from 0.5% to 1%" or "from 50 out of 10,000 to 100 out of 10,000" give a more accurate view of the issue and risks than "it doubles" without any references.

[tikker]

3 hours ago, wseaton said:

To be perfectly technical about it Covid 19 doesn't kill people. Clotting in the lungs caused by a malfunctioning immunal response (cytokene storm) is what causes deaths.

By that logic nothing kills you, which is not the confusion we need in this pandemic right now. I know this is pedantic, but that's like saying your torso being obliterated by a truck doesn't kill you, but the respiratory failure it causes does. Your cause of death would be "crushed by a truck (causing lethal lung damage)", not "respiratory failure". COVID-19 is the Coronavirus Disease 2019. That disease includes the clotting and everything else associated with it. Similarly, if you die as a consequence of that, your cause of death will be COVID-19, not cytokine storm as that is just one of the possible complications.

3 hours ago, wseaton said:

We are now in the endemic phase of the virus, but 'pandemic' sounds cooler and more ominous and keeps news ratings higher. Pretty much everybody in my family has tested positive for covid at some point. Everybody vaccinated and only minor symptoms.

It may very well be endemic now, but we still don't have a grip on it and health care is still overloaded with it so it's as that as an ongoing pandemic.

[Falkentyne]

Bottom line is COVID is never going away.  The only way it's going to be remotely contained is if as many people get the vaccine that can safely take it, which will greatly reduce the amount of mutations, people start taking better care of their health (hint: try watching your weight and activity--being obese and a sloth is BAD, ok?), keep up your Vitamin D levels (taking Vitamin D3 and Vitamin B12 together is good for you and studies have shown that this makes it harder for the virus to bind to cells), and there have even been positive studies on the effect of Manuka Honey (UMF 10+) with regards to helping you resist bad effects from various diseases and infections (I take it almost every day), and IT TASTES GOOD TOO.  Not only can doing all of this help keep any COVID infections mild, but colds, flu and a host of other things (Anti-peroxide activity is useful).

What's not going to help are these knee-jerk shutdowns because of unvaccinated people being breeding grounds for mutations punishing vaccinated people.

[tikker]

9 minutes ago, Falkentyne said:

and there have even been positive studies on the effect of Manuka Honey (UMF 10+) with regards to helping you resist bad effects from various diseases and infections (I take it almost every day), and IT TASTES GOOD TOO.  Not only can doing all of this help keep any COVID infections mild, but colds, flu and a host of other things (Anti-peroxide activity is useful).

I've only read it's beneficial when applied as treatment, not when consumed as food, as the relevant component in it doesn't survive your metabolic system very well. A healthy lifestyle will of course benefit you as you say and honey also certainly is nice and not bad for you.

 

29 minutes ago, Falkentyne said:

Bottom line is COVID is never going away.  The only way it's going to be remotely contained is if as many people get the vaccine that can safely take it

Yeah containment was out the window last year already. We just need to get everyone either vaccinated or infected in the quickest safest way possible (meaning not overloading the hospitals)

[Jeskspie]

:surprised pikachu:

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, Jeskspie said:

:surprised pikachu:

Sorry to see that.

[Jeskspie]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

Sorry to see that.

Im dead basically

[IkeaGnome]

58 minutes ago, Jeskspie said:

Im dead basically

No where near. Just use your safety precautions you have been the last two years

[Ya_Mi]

Due to travel regulation, we must present a rapid antigen test result that were taken on maximum 1x24 hour. BUT, i've read that the we only should see and use the test result that is 15 minute after testing. So i was wondering whats with the 1x24 hour if the test result only last about 15 minute ish?

 

Or maybe i misunderstood the whole thing.

Any Doctor in the house? 

[CommanderAlex]

I'm no doctor, but going from past experience getting a PCR test, they take a whole day at the minimum for results. Rapid COVID tests, on-the-other-hand, are supposed to very quick, 15 minutes or so. 

 

Do keep in mind with Christmas being in 2 days at the time of writing, there is a surge of people getting COVID tested before the holidays due to the new Omicron variant.