"European union" Council adopts position on a common charger for electronic devices

[Blademaster91]

11 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Who actually transfers files over wire anymore from phones? Just use wifi it’s faster than USB3 anyway. Also why would you have a 60GB 4K file on your phone? That’s like a 3 hour video file. 
 

How is it anti consumer? They use the Qi standard and it’s compatible with any Qi charger. 

I guess apple users probably aren't, since lightning is only USB 2.0, apple not making a lightning usb 3.0 connector is likely on purpose as they can sell you cloud storage.

 

Why have to open an app to transfer files, when i could plug my phone into a USB port to transfer files and charge the phone?

 

And if you're backing up things, using a cable is going to be faster unless you have an expensive high end router.

 

Also completely removing the port would force most users to keep their data in cloud storage, that's anti-consumer in my opinion.  IMO wireless charging is worse than using a cable, it heats up the battery, charges much slower than a cable, and you would need to carry a Qi charging pad and a USB cable around with a phone that has no charge port. I dont see how removing the charging port entirely is of any benefit to the consumer.

[Thaldor]

46 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The problem is you are just focusing on Apple, as if the talks regarding innovation and such are referring to Apple.  I think MrMoose is referring to other companies and not Apple.

 

There are devices out there that will be hindered by it.  Overall, I think better legislation could cover the current issues without the concept of limiting future potential.

IIRC year, two back when this was in the draft there was the industry consultation where anyone was free to comment and 5-15 biggest companies on mobile markets were asked their input and there was only one company that was against this, Apple.

 

This doesn't mean companies cannot do more, this is just the minimum they have to do. Want to develop faster data transfer, charging, whatever? As long as you support the USB-C and USB PD standards, go crazy. Want to develop completely new port? As long as you have USB-C compliant port, go crazy, nothing says you cannot add whatever ports you want to your device as long as it has USB-C port.

I fail to see what here would hinder the development. That company cannot use their own port because size? That's company's problem, if their design is so small it cannto fit USB-C port, start to innovate something that fits and is USB-C compliant, it probably took IBM/Lenovo couple years to come up with the design and build it but they managed to make RJ-45 port that can fit thinner laptops. Price? the connector and supporting circuitry ain't that expensive (Lightning is more expensive) and licensing is $3,500-6,000 if you aren't USB-IF member (which almost everyone is, there's around 1080 member companies including Apple), developing your own always comes with a price but that again is company problem, that USB licensing fee is probably one of the smallest fees while you develop your device and if you want to develop your own, that's your choice, just remember to make it USB-C compliant or add USB-C port to your device.

 

And again, this is what industry has chosen. There is very few manufacturers who don't already use USB-C and out of those only Apple complained about this EU draft. And if you aren't happy with this, you are completely free to start develop your own connector and maybe after the 5-10 years when the situation is again inspected your port has gained enough status from the industry so it can be the next common port. This is not some decision that will carry into the unforeseeable future, most likely again after 5-10 years the standard is lifted as the earlier (microUSB) was and companies can compete who's port will gain the most adaption and EU will make it the common port for the following years. Also at least the draft included the part where the situation is monitored and if something extremely huge happens, it can be taken into account and the standard can be negotiated.

[Vishera]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

I'm torn by this, on one hand I think it is counter productive to force companies to use specific hardware because it does actually stifle innovation and development (though probably not by much), but on the other hand ewaste is a big problem and tackling even 1/10th of it is a good thing,  then on the 3rd hand I think it is good for consumers to be able to reuse their charges and cables (especially if they buy a good quality one), but on the fourth hand phone makers are cunts,  they will charge for the cable they don't include and if every phone maker in the world can use USB and only change up once every 10 years to something better then so can apple.  

 

I don't think you have to be very smart to see that some of these hands can be combined and really aren't much of an argument.

Considering that the USB standard is both forwards and backwards compatible,

And USB-C is still USB - It will probably be forwards and backwards compatible like any other USB standard.

I have seen people take USB 3 cables and solder a USB-C connector to it - and it worked (just like a normal USB 3 port).

[tim0901]

14 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Considering that the USB standard is both forwards and backwards compatible,

And USB-C is still USB - It will probably be forwards and backwards compatible like any other USB standard.

I have seen people take USB 3 cables and solder a USB-C connector to it - and it worked (just like a normal USB 3 port).

You're comparing physical standards (USB C) and digital standards (USB 3). The digital standards are indeed backwards compatible - you can make any USB 3 device talk to any USB 2 device etc. - but the physical standards are not. You can't just blindly swap out the connector on a PCB as the different USB connectors require different circuitry to support them. Both parts of the specification operate completely separately.

[Salv8 (sam)]

9 hours ago, darknessblade said:

smartphones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, portable speakers and video game consoles.

the first five i agree with, the last i do not.

the amount of power that an Xbone or ps5 consumes while being used is beyond what the USB-C standard can provide.

the switch's changer doesn't even follow the power standards of USB-C, it sends WAY to much amperage and can even damage a device's battery if used too much.

while i do agree that there needs to be a common port for all mobile devices, console's need more power since they are more powerful. while they can be more efficient and use less power, they might be able to use like what, 20-40% less power if they really stride for it. but it doesn't change the fact that it will STILL be to much for USB-C.

 

i do agree with this legislation, just keep consoles out of it for now...

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, Thaldor said:

That company cannot use their own port because size? That's company's problem, if their design is so small it cannto fit USB-C port, start to innovate something that fits and is USB-C compliant, it probably took IBM/Lenovo couple years to come up with the design and build it but they managed to make RJ-45 port that can fit thinner laptops

See, the bolded bit if you were to tell people that on the street you will get laughed at for thinking the law should effectively.  Guess what, if you say that a device that can't fit an USB-C shouldn't be allowed then that will stifle innovation.

 

1 hour ago, Thaldor said:

And again, this is what industry has chosen. There is very few manufacturers who don't already use USB-C and out of those only Apple complained about this EU draft. And if you aren't happy with this, you are completely free to start develop your own connector and maybe after the 5-10 years when the situation is again inspected your port has gained enough status from the industry so it can be the next common port. This is not some decision that will carry into the unforeseeable future, most likely again after 5-10 years the standard is lifted as the earlier (microUSB) was and companies can compete who's port will gain the most adaption and EU will make it the common port for the following years. Also at least the draft included the part where the situation is monitored and if something extremely huge happens, it can be taken into account and the standard can be negotiated.

Having a review every 5-10 years is impractical.  It's just like the whole DMCA where the excemptions are reviewed every so often (where jailbreaking becomes legal and then not legal).  Laws when in place are slow to adapt, and like it not there will be less incentive to develop a new better plug if you know other companies won't be able to purchase it for their devices (and no a review wouldn't change things because if you created a better plug it wouldn't be in use and thus wouldn't get the traction it needs).

 

The claim is that it's to help prevent e-waste, but honestly there are bigger fish to try and this legislation doesn't mean anything except to target a specific company (Apple) while not naming them.  Other examples of things where it's better well spent, like making legislation to prevent non-replaceable batteries.  Bio-degradable plastics that have been labeled as such, but in reality only bio-degrade at an unrealistic temperature (ones not seen naturally in the vast majority of areas) and with a specific microbe that isn't common.

 

The fact is if they truly cared about e-waste there would be way more effective ways of implementing it.

[AnonymousGuy]

"universal" led us to microUSB.

 

No thanks.

[Video Beagle]

7 hours ago, darknessblade said:

So apple has to either Kiss the EU their ass, or loose access to all their money for a very very very long time.

 

Does it rain donuts in the magical land you live in?

 

I somehow think a law that only is about hampering one company isn't going to pass muster for the various constitutions it would need to.

 

Beyond that, do you think the biggest (or one of the?) companies in the world will just sit around and lit itself be bullied...and by the EU? They can squash things with PR, and that's not even getting into the dirtier tactics they could use....hell, they could just buy Greece and rename it AppleTopia and take a seat at the table. You think the US is going to let the EU hold ransom from one of our major companies?

 

And g-d help us..putting technological development in the hands of bureaucrats...

[Arika]

3 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

Beyond that, do you think the biggest (or one of the?) companies in the world will just sit around and lit itself be bullied...and by the EU? They can squash things with PR, and that's not even getting into the dirtier tactics they could use....hell, they could just buy Greece and rename it AppleTopia and take a seat at the table. You think the US is going to let the EU hold ransom from one of our major companies?

Yes, that's what we want, corporations to have more power than entire countries....

[Video Beagle]

2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Yes, that's what we want, corporations to have more power than entire countries....

Go out to the nearest dock and look out into the harbor....you see that? That's the ship that sailed a long, long time ago.

[Arika]

1 minute ago, Video Beagle said:

Go out the nearest dock and look out into the harbor....you see that? That's the ship that sailed a long long time ago.

Correct, that's why we need bigger anchors, not handing them bigger sails.

[pas008]

i have a feeling this will turn out like how everything else, decided to go bluray and now bluray really doesnt matter for the most part

eventually something better will be needed

if cables are a problem offer recycling like 5 euros per cable and have these companies help with recycling if they want their products used there,

 

what do they do with all these fragile or old electronics?

many of todays electronics are fragile and have short lifespan what is going on with them?

 

 

[Blademaster91]

15 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

And g-d help us..putting technological development in the hands of bureaucrats...

It couldn't be any worse than putting development in the hands of a multi trillion dollar company bribing the bureaucrats and buying their way out of lawsuits.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Thaldor said:

This is the funniest comment ever.

 

"It's going to hinder the innovation" Apples? Like seriously during the time which Apple has used Lightning, others have gone to microUSB (that was EU's earlier "standard" for which Apple demanded the adapter loophole which it got) and in the recent years (after EU's microUSB standard was lifted for the industry to try out what would be the next standard) to the USB-C. Even this couple years without forced standard during which companies were allowed to try out, test, innovate and create the next connector, Apple did absolutely nothing on that front. And now that others developed the new standard, accepted the new standard and it's going to come, Apple suddenly would innovate?

 

No, we are not in the kindergarten where everyone has the second, third and fourth chance to try again and do better. Apple had the same chance as everyone else and they choose not to use it, others came up with USB-C and adapted it even without anyone forcing, Apple choose to do nothing and here we are. Hopefully after five or ten years when this standard is again lifted for companies to innovate the next one, Apple is awake and innovates like everybody else and comes up with their own option that everyone can evaluate and as in democracy majority will choose the next common connector.

 

Laugh at it all you want,  the fact still remains that no company is going to spend any money developing a new and better of anything if there is no market for it.    Once a government regulates you have to use one specific thing then that takes away market for development of anything else.

 

This is not just about apple, and I really don't care for the BS apple spin.  As much as I want apple to go die in a bin fire,  I support them being allowed to develop their own tech for their own products.  it would be irrational for me to support every other company and product with that right but then turn around and argue apple shouldn't have it. 

 

But as I said in the rest of my first post, it is not a black and white problem and there are several issues that need to be addressed and compromises will always have to be made.

 

 

[Imbadatnames]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I guess apple users probably aren't, since lightning is only USB 2.0, apple not making a lightning usb 3.0 connector is likely on purpose as they can sell you cloud storage.

 

Why use have to open an app to transfer files, when i could plug my phone into a USB port to transfer files and charge the phone?

 

And if you're backing up things, using a cable is going to be faster unless you have an expensive high end router.

 

Also completely removing the port would force most users to keep their data in cloud storage, that's anti-consumer in my opinion.  IMO wireless charging is worse than using a cable, it heats up the battery, charges much slower than a cable, and you would need to carry a Qi charging pad and a USB cable around with a phone that has no charge port. I dont see how removing the charging port entirely is of any benefit to the consumer.

USB 3 speeds are slower than Wifi 6… you can get around gigabit speeds if you leave your phone near the router… or I could just download it off iCloud that’s generally fairly fast or I can set it up so it automatically downloads when I’m away so that would mean instead of waiting for a data transfer over wire I already have the data? 

 

Don’t need to charge my phone constantly it lasts a good 2-3 days on a charge 

 

I do not know anyone who manually backs up phone data using a wire. 
 

Removing the port creates more space for the internals, improves water resistance, removes a point of failure and removes an attack vector in security terms 

[mr moose]

42 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

It couldn't be any worse than putting development in the hands of a multi trillion dollar company bribing the bureaucrats and buying their way out of lawsuits.

Like the latest Intel news highlights,  like the decision or not it proves that so much happens behind the scene that in both cases regardless if Intel was unethical or not,  on one hand bureaucrats tried to fine them and on the other they got away with it,  who pays the price?  Consumers.

[darknessblade]

1 hour ago, Video Beagle said:

Does it rain donuts in the magical land you live in?

 

I somehow think a law that only is about hampering one company isn't going to pass muster for the various constitutions it would need to.

 

Beyond that, do you think the biggest (or one of the?) companies in the world will just sit around and lit itself be bullied...and by the EU? They can squash things with PR, and that's not even getting into the dirtier tactics they could use....hell, they could just buy Greece and rename it AppleTopia and take a seat at the table. You think the US is going to let the EU hold ransom from one of our major companies?

 

And g-d help us..putting technological development in the hands of bureaucrats...

You really think the USA is gonna risk making a Enemy out of yet another group of countries

 

China, North korea, And Russia are already against the USA, and if the EU joins as well, the USA has nearly the entire world against them.

Also You really think the USA is still the most powerful country in the world, just because you had a Oompa loompa as president??

Just so you know A country that has a new leader every 4 years is not a stable country.

 

ALSO if the EU has all of APPLE's money hostage? how are they gonna buy Greece? with what money?

Apple making a PR nightmare of that, does not work, as atagonizing a Government is not a good idea. they could just add another Tax law. that says they have to pay 200% taxes on international transactions. making apple pay 2$ just to take a single dollar out of their tax haven wallet.

 

[Brooksie359]

8 hours ago, darknessblade said:

using a 3rd party case with Lightning to USB C does not comply with the new regulations.

 

otherwise every phone maker would have done this.

 

You also forgot that apple has billions stored in banks in their EU Tax-haven.

which they can keep Hostage under the name of investigation, blocking apple from taking out even 0.01$.

 

So apple has to either Kiss the EU their ass, or loose access to all their money for a very very very long time.

 

I doubt they could get away with that. If Apple really wanted to pull out of the EU I doubt they could stop them from doing so but the thing is Apple wouldn't do that because the EU market it still rather significant. It wouldn't make sense to sacrifice the market over something like this. That being said this whole thing is so unbelievably stupid. We have for the most part switched over to usb c so it's not like this will have any meaningful impact other than forcing Apple to switch which imo doesn't really reduce waste like they think it does. I mean people who use Apple phones aren't going to suddenly have less waste because they are using USB type c vs Apple chargers. And if you think this won't stop people from trying out new innovative connectors in the future then you would be wrong. 

[Brooksie359]

9 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

You really think the USA is gonna risk making a Enemy out of yet another group of countries

 

China, North korea, And Russia are already against the USA, and if the EU joins as well, the USA has nearly the entire world against them.

Also You really think the USA is still the most powerful country in the world, just because you had a Oompa loompa as president??

Just so you know A country that has a new leader every 4 years is not a stable country.

 

ALSO if the EU has all of APPLE's money hostage? how are they gonna buy Greece? with what money?

Apple making a PR nightmare of that, does not work, as atagonizing a Government is not a good idea. they could just add another Tax law. that says they have to pay 200% taxes on international transactions. making apple pay 2$ just to take a single dollar out of their tax haven wallet.

 

First and foremost I doubt the EU has all of apples money and also you have to realize that a company of apples size could easily get more money by taking out loans against its assets with basically 0 interest. Apple is one of the biggest companies in the world with alot of money and power. To say that the EU has not stake in the game if they were to piss apple off is crazy. I mean there is a reason why countries were giving apple tax breaks to have some of their offices located in their country. Financial power is more persuasive than you think and can do alot of things especially with lawyers and funding government representatives. They can sue their way out of things just like Intel did with their fine. If you really think the EU could freeze all of apples money without causing a huge shitstorm you are delusional. 

[Forbidden Wafer]

2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Beyond that, do you think the biggest (or one of the?) companies in the world will just sit around and lit itself be bullied...and by the EU?

I think they either comply or get banned.

[Dracarris]

12 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Imagine if they did this 10 years ago and said Micro USB was the standard.

I am SO grateful that an alternative to micro USB was created - the absolute horrible, most terrible connector of all times. Everytime I have to use this abomination of a connector I get pissed how they could greenlight this.

9 hours ago, Franck said:

I don't know how well this has been written but if it's just about standard connector it means nothing. It has to be same connector with same pin layout.

I am more concerned about the usual issue around "standard chargers". Does this legislation actually require the devices to have the same port or again only the wall charger? Because then it would do nothing, that's already where we are at. A wall plug with Type A or C or both, and then you basically need 3 cables to adapt this to micro B, C, and lightning and you are ready to charge basically every device in existence.

 

"Charger" and "charging cable" are two disctinctively different things.

12 hours ago, darknessblade said:

Want to move that 60GB 4K video from your phone. please pay us 3$ a month for a 205GB cloud storage.

their normal storage is 5GB.

So how are you gonna move a 60GB file from your iphone without any cable/port?

Have you ever heard about Airdrop? It is very very fast and a bliss to use, much easier than connecting a cable and go browsing for the right file.

 

BTW about backups: It is extremely convenient to do automatic backups to icloud every night without having to worry at all. The 50GB plan is 1$ per month, the 200GB plan 3$ as you say but can be shared with family and friends. All plans include the plus features like anonymized Mail, Browsing etc, for 12 or 36$ per year (or 18$ if you e.g. share with your SO). IMHO that's absolutely reasonable. I personally hate paying for subscriptions (especially Apps) but this one is such a no-brainer even for me since both price-per-value and absolute price are great.

 

(BBTW The 2TB shareable plan is 10$ per month - compare that to e.g., Dropbox where you get 10$ for 2TB single-user only, the shareable version is 17$)

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, darknessblade said:

You really think the USA is gonna risk making a Enemy out of yet another group of countries

 

China, North korea, And Russia are already against the USA, and if the EU joins as well, the USA has nearly the entire world against them.

The US is energy independent. "He who controls the Spice, controls the Universe". And nobody wants to be without the Spice. The US, like many nations are loathed to some degree or another: but at least the EU knows which side the of bread is buttered.

 

2 hours ago, darknessblade said:

Just so you know A country that has a new leader every 4 years is not a stable country.

 

Democracy is a horrible system; but all other alternatives are far worse!

 

 

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

the first five i agree with, the last i do not.

the amount of power that an Xbone or ps5 consumes while being used is beyond what the USB-C standard can provide.

the switch's changer doesn't even follow the power standards of USB-C, it sends WAY to much amperage and can even damage a device's battery if used too much.

 

The Switch is standard USB-C, it's the connector on the Switch/dock that violates the standard a little bit, in that it doesn't lock. (cause kids will break it)

 

One dock maker made a non-standard dock that killed Switch consoles. ONLY ONE.

All other USB-C docks work with the switch. Google M92T36 if you want to know more. 

 

https://switchchargers.com/nintendo-switch-bricking-faq/

 

Of which the ONE dock that was implicated as the problem didn't have a proper PD chip and instead PD negotiation in software.

 

Now the problem, overall is that people are confusing "USB-C as the standard mechanical interface" with "USB-C as the ONLY hardware interface" which it's not.

 

High-power laptops aren't shipping with only USB-C PD adapters, because they can't. 240w is not standard PD, only 120w is, presently. Dell laptops got around this by having proprietary dual usb-c PD cable docks. You can use the dell dock with non-dell equipment, but you won't get 240w of power from it unless the laptop has two USB-C ports in the exact mechanical arrangement as a dell laptop. But any thing that's not a 240w laptop, eg 120w, 90w, 65w, 35w, etc a single USB-C will be fine, even if the PD unit does 240w.

 

There is nothing stopping Samsung and Google from including a Dell laptop power connector, other than "why would they?", you can buy Dell power supply to USB-C connectors that cost as much as a usb-c adapter.

https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-adapter-74mm-barrel-to-usb-c-65-watt-maximum-output/apd/470-acfh/pc-accessories

$50 USD, that let's you repurpose the laptop brick instead of buying a new adapter.

 

More or less, I think the "innovation" argument is a deflection. Apple is clearly capable of putting USB-C on the iPhone, and they can just leave the lightning connector on the phone/tablet if that's really something they feel it needs.

 

Switching to full wireless would be stupid, and any "wireless only" hardware can only be justified when NO connector can fit on the device. Like a pacemaker, or a more typical sportwatch

[CephDigital]

Here's my thoughts on this, would we be stuck with the same connector forever if this was implemented? I highly doubt it, if someone came up with something much better and practical that would warrant an upgrade, I think we'd swap to it. Example, if this was implemented during the micro b days and then came along usb c that could do so much more while being more durable etc., we'd probably eventually move towards it.

[1518]

On 1/27/2022 at 11:35 AM, mr moose said:

 

I'm torn by this, on one hand I think it is counter productive to force companies to use specific hardware because it does actually stifle innovation and development (though probably not by much), but on the other hand ewaste is a big problem and tackling even 1/10th of it is a good thing,  then on the 3rd hand I think it is good for consumers to be able to reuse their charges and cables (especially if they buy a good quality one), but on the fourth hand phone makers are cunts,  they will charge for the cable they don't include and if every phone maker in the world can use USB and only change up once every 10 years to something better then so can apple.  

 

I don't think you have to be very smart to see that some of these hands can be combined and really aren't much of an argument.

I don't think it would stifle innovation as they can make newer versions of USB. And I think it would be better if I needed one cable for everything.