"European union" Council adopts position on a common charger for electronic devices

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Spindel said:

 

Same thing when FireWire was dropped, loads of people staring up a shit storm that had invested in loads peripherals complaining that they had to buy firewire to TB adapters to make them work (gladly forgetting that they probably only needed 1-3 adapters since daisy changing ie external drives was a thing with FW). 

 

 

People often say this, trying working in a studio with FW400 gear and getting it to work on anything else at the time.    There was a reason many in the pro audio world kicked up a stink and it had nothing to do with buying adapters.  It was facing a lack of serious upgrade path or swapping over to windows.   That's not something any studio tech wants to think about when their customers demand the absolute best (your gear list is your biggest sales point).   When your customer is paying hundreds per hour for your studio and you have latency issues because you're running your interface through an adaptor through a second protocol or worse through a new OS you haven't used your gear with before,  no one is going to say it's ok we understand. you can kiss your reputation goodbye.

 

EDIT: just to re enforce the point.  What separates professional gear from everything else is support, long term, will always work, predictable support.  Want to know why you pay 3 times more for a fluke multimeter?  A. because they guarantee it will work exactly like the one they made in the 70's.   And people running absolute cannot fail services will pay 3 times as much so that the tools they use do exactly what they expect them to do. They pay 3 times more because they know it will do exactly what their training tells others they do.  

[RejZoR]

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

The same people that will sanction Apple.
No one, because a few thousand Wiko Y82s don't matter when there are millions and millions of iPhones. On top of that, this is about USB C chargers, not USB C devices.

 

Yes, because all of your USB A chargers will suddenly transform into USB C chargers. 
btw. did anyone complain when the apple 30pin was replaced with lightning? or firewire with Thunderbolt? We've already been through this many times and at the end someone will always end up with a bunch of useless cables. 

 

Usually the sheep follow Apple, not the other way around.
Apple has never really cared about "good examples". They're the ones that define for themselves what a good example is.

 

On top of that you can't just mandate USB C on all devices. Manufacturers have to have a say in this aswell. The EU is still a democracy and not east Germany.

Lol, it's the cheap e-waste devices with zero support and outdated specs that sell in hundreds of millions of units and no one makes news about it like everyone does for iPhones. Because no one cares. But they probably move insane amounts of those phones.

 

USB-A chargers won't "suddenly" become USB-C when their output is USB-C only, yet you get USB-C to USB-C cable with the phone. Where will you stick USB-C? Into USB-A? You'll either have to replace cable or the charger. So it's not any different than with iPhone in the end. But it's always this stupid with transition periods. It's just worse now that you don't get the charger with phone at all.

 

Sheep being all other manufacturers who copy everything from Apple, they just didn't copy Lightning because it was Apple's own design not for sale to others? Or they didn't feel the incentive to adopt it initially and then USB-C was released and no one bothered.

 

Why shouldn't EU mandate what kind of USB should be on new devices? They clearly can, otherwise what are they whining about? If you release a product in 2022 for EU market, it must have USB-C. As simple as that. No microUSB trash. We've discussed this and using USB-C port in bulk shouldn't affect the cost of products. I know they'll charge 5-10€ more for it to the consumers, but to manufacturer the costs are in cents, not in €.

[Senzelian]

5 hours ago, Spindel said:

Both tech and non tech forums where a shit show when apple dropped the 30-pin connector to give place to lightning. 

 

Conspiracies where running wild that this was a move from Apple in cahoots with peripheral manufacturers to sell new peripherals. Some people refused to accept that the 30-pin was ancient and needed replacing. 

 

Same thing when FireWire was dropped, loads of people staring up a shit storm that had invested in loads peripherals complaining that they had to buy firewire to TB adapters to make them work (gladly forgetting that they probably only needed 1-3 adapters since daisy changing ie external drives was a thing with FW). 

Thanks for the clarification.
I never got in touch with any of those standards tbh. 

 

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Lol, it's the cheap e-waste devices with zero support and outdated specs that sell in hundreds of millions of units and no one makes news about it like everyone does for iPhones. Because no one cares. But they probably move insane amounts of those phones.

Which cheap e-waste devices with zero support and outdated specs are sold in the EU in the hundreds of millions?
I'm genuinely curious, because out of all the devices that I have, two of them use a USB Micro B connector. One of them being a Soundblaster G5 and the other being a Opolar air duster. Both of which don't need any support and are not products that require updated specs to still be of value.
 

On top of that it doesn't matter that they're using a USB Micro B connector for power, since this entire topic is still about chargers.

 

Do we have to list every single product and company everytime we discuss this issue? I hope not.

Yes of course there are cheap products that are obsolete and are practically e-waste as soon as they leave the factory, but most of those don't even end up here in the EU.

 

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

USB-A chargers won't "suddenly" become USB-C when their output is USB-C only, yet you get USB-C to USB-C cable with the phone. Where will you stick USB-C? Into USB-A? You'll either have to replace cable or the charger. So it's not any different than with iPhone in the end. But it's always this stupid with transition periods. It's just worse now that you don't get the charger with phone at all.

I thought you had a bunch of perfectly fine chargers and cables. Why do you need to replace them if the standard changes? The hardware you already have doesn't change. I don't need to go out to buy a new charger for my Air Duster. The cable and charger that I have still work fine.

 

And even if you have to buy a new cable, then from now on going forward you'll not have to do that again, since all products will use the same standard. There are transission periods; they always suck, but in the end are usually worth it.

 

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Sheep being all other manufacturers who copy everything from Apple, they just didn't copy Lightning because it was Apple's own design not for sale to others? Or they didn't feel the incentive to adopt it initially and then USB-C was released and no one bothered.

You were the one saying the other companies should set a good example for Apple, so that Apple would adopt USB C. Since when does Apple ever listen to the ones, that are copying Apple? That's what I meant with "Usually the sheep follow Apple, not the other way around."

 

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Why shouldn't EU mandate what kind of USB should be on new devices? They clearly can, otherwise what are they whining about? If you release a product in 2022 for EU market, it must have USB-C. As simple as that. No microUSB trash. We've discussed this and using USB-C port in bulk shouldn't affect the cost of products. I know they'll charge 5-10€ more for it to the consumers, but to manufacturer the costs are in cents, not in €.

That's what they're doing! But you gotta give them time. You can't simlpy throw everything overboard and expect manufacturers / companies to happily play along.

It's not as simple as to force everyone to simply use USB C with the start of a new year.

 

Here's an example:
Imagine you're HP/Dell/Asus (whoever) and you're producing a laptop with a barrel connector. Ideally you want to use that power supply, that connector and the same chassis for as many years as possible, so that you save costs. We're talking 3-4 years here. In the middle of your production run suddenly the EU comes along and tell you that you're not allowed to produce any more of those laptops, because the connector has to be USB C. Now you either end up with the company dumping a bunch of tooling, chargers, cables, and connectors as e-waste and a compensation from the EU, or they're leaving the market with that product, which means lower income for the company and a lower tax income for the EU and in any case higher pricing for the customer. 

 

Timing is critical with these things. We're finally at a point, where USB C has been adopted by most of the major companies in their products. (Headphones, Tablets, Notebooks, Smartphones, power banks, ...) The EU has to give enough time for every company to adopt these changes, for the tech to mature, so that it is feasible for the companies to adopt it and at the same time make these changes fast enough, so that companies won't abuse their position inbetween all that.

 

In my opinion this is the perfect timing and it is necessary to mention Apple as the most important company from which we should expect those changes. They're the ones with the most influence and the ones that will make people listen. If Apple does it, everyone else will follow.

[Kisai]

22 hours ago, Senzelian said:

 

On top of that it doesn't matter that they're using a USB Micro B connector for power, since this entire topic is still about chargers.

 

Do we have to list every single product and company everytime we discuss this issue? I hope not.

Yes of course there are cheap products that are obsolete and are practically e-waste as soon as they leave the factory, but most of those don't even end up here in the EU.

 

I thought you had a bunch of perfectly fine chargers and cables. Why do you need to replace them if the standard changes? The hardware you already have doesn't change. I don't need to go out to buy a new charger for my Air Duster. The cable and charger that I have still work fine.

 

Pretty much all external drives are not using USB-C. They're all mini-b 3.0

 

Like you have chargers, and then you have power supplies, and for all intents those are the same. But the target is battery-operated devices. The obvious reason is because of the e-waste from how much e-waste they continue to generate by having new adapters in the boxes. So they started dropping those. When you buy an external hard drive, they always come with a cable (be that usb-b 3.0 or usb-c), and you use that cable for the life of the device, and it may end up out-living the drive. But try to re-use that cable. You probably won't, because new drives, again, come with cables.

 

I don't personally think we're in a position to mandate that all non-battery devices to also use usb-c PD but as chargers and power supplies for devices are one and the same, that's the direction everything has to move.

[Senzelian]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

Pretty much all external drives are not using USB-C. They're all mini-b 3.0

I checked out all the external drives that came out since 2021 and are still being sold in Germany, UK, Poland and Austria.

Out of 288, 153 use USB-C, 72 use USB Micro B (3.0) and 47 use USB A. Only 16 use USB-B. None of them use USB Mini B.
As you can see, there is a strong trend towards USB C.

Source:

https://geizhals.de/?cat=hdx&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&hloc=pl&hloc=uk&hloc=eu&sort=r&bl1_id=100&xf=3337_2021

 

 

I think with those devices it is important to note that a lot of them also rely on external power, as not all USB ports supply enough power for a 3.5" mechanical drive.
It's not an excuse for not using USB C, but certainly something to keep in mind.

[Kisai]

13 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I checked out all the external drives that came out since 2021 and are still being sold in Germany, UK, Poland and Austria.

Out of 288, 153 use USB-C, 72 use USB Micro B (3.0) and 47 use USB A. Only 16 use USB-B. None of them use USB Mini B.
As you can see, there is a strong trend towards USB C.

Source:

https://geizhals.de/?cat=hdx&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&hloc=pl&hloc=uk&hloc=eu&sort=r&bl1_id=100&xf=3337_2021

 

 

I think with those devices it is important to note that a lot of them also rely on external power, as not all USB ports supply enough power for a 3.5" mechanical drive.
It's not an excuse for not using USB C, but certainly something to keep in mind.

I meant micro-b

amazon.com

 

They come with cables like that, but usually like 6"

 

Still the point stands, that the majority of the drives on the market aren't using usb-c unless they are flash drives.

 

 

Memory Express

 

Canada Computers

 

Information page on Western Digital drives on Memory Express.

 

They don't mention the drive-side connector, only the PC-side connector.

 

 

Also apparently there is some pseudo-standard with USB connectors, though not uniform.

 

www.l-com.com/images/usb-tutorial_connectors.gif

 

If I go look at all the USB stuff I have, the USB 3.x external drives are Micro type B with the two-piece style connector, but various other devices (eg chargers) are the USB 2.0 Micro type B. Looks like Mini was never used for 3.x

 

[Senzelian]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

Still the point stands, that the majority of the drives on the market aren't using usb-c unless they are flash drives.

You didn't mention a source for the pictures you uploaded, where were they taken from?

 

[Mihle]

I don't think I have ever seen a USB 3 type B with my own eyes. All Type B I have seen is USB 2 I think.

[Ydfhlx]

On 1/27/2022 at 12:14 PM, darknessblade said:

USB type B, Type B 3.0, Type B micro, Type B mini, Type B micro 3.0, Lightningport ETC

This just proves you don't really know what are you talking about... Type B 2.0 and 3.0 are same physical connector, different versions, but cross-compatible... Same for micro 2.0 and 3.0.

 

Also, nothing uses mini USB any more, it's either micro or type C. There only really are Type B (PCs), Type C (phones, also some other (mostly newer) things), mini (some small accesories like headphones, slowly shifting to type C), Lightning (iPhones).

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, James Evens said:

Why are those pseudo B?

There are even micro AB as a standard type.

You can't plug the USB 3.0 MicroB into a USB 2.0 MicroB, only the other way around. As the devices typically come with the cable that ends with a TypeA, you may as well consider microB a proprietary connector, as you can't typically replace/extend the cable due to the power requirement. And many external drives have a double-USB connector to get the required power from the port.

 

Depending on what you buy, at present

3.5" type of external can have the two-piece Micro-B, plus a 12v power brick, or the USB-C connector with or without a brick, with the assumption it will be plugged directly into the desktop and not a hub.

2.5" type of external will usually only have the Micro-B, sometimes with a Y cable USB-A end. 

SSD (SATA) type of external with Micro-B

SSD (other) type of external with USB-C

Flash drives, with USB-A or USB-C

 

[darknessblade]

2 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

This just proves you don't really know what are you talking about... Type B 2.0 and 3.0 are same physical connector, different versions, but cross-compatible... Same for micro 2.0 and 3.0.

 

Also, nothing uses mini USB any more, it's either micro or type C. There only really are Type B (PCs), Type C (phones, also some other (mostly newer) things), mini (some small accesories like headphones, slowly shifting to type C), Lightning (iPhones).

same  connector?, not even in the slightest

 

the only one that is the same is the USB-A side

 

go ahead and put a usb 3.0 type B connector in a usb 2.0 tye B device, then send a picture of the usb 2.0 device working with the usb 3.0 cable.

[Ydfhlx]

40 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

the only one that is the same is the USB-A side

 

go ahead and put a usb 3.0 type B connector in a usb 2.0 tye B device, then send a picture of the usb 2.0 device working with the usb 3.0 cable.

Oh boi I was wrong, now I look like an idiot... Obviously I meant type A, I just completely forgot type B even existed (literally only thing I have with this is old backup printer, but I never unplug it and computer side is type A). Muphry's law.

 

Point still stands tho, can you actually buy a new USB Type B device so that EU needs to regulate this?

[Elijah Kamski]

Obviously they have not learnt from USB exactly where this will lead XD

[Elijah Kamski]

A heads up, the whole common charger thing, it's going to be really confusing.

Just like USB having the same physical shape, it has different speeds etc, which means in the end, customers may more likely be confused due to the weird naming schemes as cables and ports upgrade over time, despite having the same physical shape.
 

Also, this would stifle innovation for smaller ports and/or experiments into better designs.

[mr moose]

16 hours ago, Elijah Kamski said:

Just like USB having the same physical shape, it has different speeds etc, which means in the end, customers may more likely be confused due to the weird naming schemes as cables and ports upgrade over time, despite having the same physical shape.
 

It was intentionally designed like that, it's part of the concept of improving and advancing designs without obsoleting peripherals.   In the end varying speeds is not really a problem that confuses people.  With the current method you can upgrade your USB 2 peripheral to USB 3 and still use it with your USB2 laptop/desktop. 

 

I.E You upgrade your laptop with USB2 to a desktop with USB 3 and you can still use your USB 2 peripheral.   But if you change the physical port  then many people would find themselves having to replace both their PC and their peripheral when only one needed to be replaced. 

[Kisai]

18 hours ago, Elijah Kamski said:

A heads up, the whole common charger thing, it's going to be really confusing.

Just like USB having the same physical shape, it has different speeds etc, which means in the end, customers may more likely be confused due to the weird naming schemes as cables and ports upgrade over time, despite having the same physical shape.
 

Also, this would stifle innovation for smaller ports and/or experiments into better designs.

We certainly do not need smaller ports. You can only make something so small before electricity will just arc, and the "card edge" of the ports crumbles. This is not a new problem.

 

The problem that is trying to be solved is e-waste. The goal is to eliminate all chargers from being shipped with the device, since most are proprietary, even ones using the physical USB-A (different fast charging protocols.) Plug an Apple into a Samsung charger or vice versa and it will only trickle charge, and since both phones require high power charging, you won't be able to use the phone either while it charges.

 

 

 

[Elijah Kamski]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

We certainly do not need smaller ports. You can only make something so small before electricity will just arc, and the "card edge" of the ports crumbles. This is not a new problem.

 

The problem that is trying to be solved is e-waste. The goal is to eliminate all chargers from being shipped with the device, since most are proprietary, even ones using the physical USB-A (different fast charging protocols.) Plug an Apple into a Samsung charger or vice versa and it will only trickle charge, and since both phones require high power charging, you won't be able to use the phone either while it charges.

 

 

 

Apple and Samsung XD

 

Can't wait for DRM cables XD