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Intel passing off bogus Xeon Server 'metrics'

WillyW
By WillyW
in Tech News
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Go to solution Solved by justpoet,
1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

You say this like intel never had issues when releasing a whole new cpu architecture......

Intel is perfect, itanium is the future.

Posted

Both were tested using version 2019.3, but that wasn't optimized for Zen 2. Then Intel tested it with 2019.4, so are the results from Intel comparing 2019.4 on their cpus to, AMD's using 2019.3?

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7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Apparently people still don't understand that first party benchmarks are always bullshit and all big companies does it. 

Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc. Do not trust benchmarks from them. They all have a history of putting out misleading marketing material.

 

I mean, what do people expect? That the marketing department doesn't try and make their products seem as appealing as possible? 

First party benchmarks are not to be trusted because they use their own internal compilers, and also have firmware tweaks that aren't in shipping units. Unless they prefixed a benchmark with "using Intel Compiler" or "Using CLang" and "Firmware version 1.0", where you can replicate the settings, usually the synthetic benchmarks are not even reliable. See TDP measurements elsewhere on third party sites.

 

When people do OC tests, there's no established way to validate a configuration. Non-OC you can at least take a swipe at third party benchmarks by stating the firmware version and running at factory defaults.

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@WillyW

You should also add this, the test is was done on a older version of the test that is know to run bad on epyc, but the new version had some optimization.

 

 

if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc

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4 hours ago, MichaelWd said:

 

Why do the investments need to be above a certain threshold before misleading consumers becomes wrong? 

It doesn't it is always wrong

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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9 hours ago, yolosnail said:

Then what was all the fuss with Elon Musk then? 

What kind of person would invest in a company based on a tweet?

The kind of vocal person who shouldn't be investing anyways

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
2 hours ago, Kisai said:

First party benchmarks are not to be trusted because they use their own internal compilers, and also have firmware tweaks that aren't in shipping units. Unless they prefixed a benchmark with "using Intel Compiler" or "Using CLang" and "Firmware version 1.0", where you can replicate the settings, usually the synthetic benchmarks are not even reliable. See TDP measurements elsewhere on third party sites.

 

When people do OC tests, there's no established way to validate a configuration. Non-OC you can at least take a swipe at third party benchmarks by stating the firmware version and running at factory defaults.

In this particular case, intel rigorously documented the exact settings for both, so at least we can go back and test it. Heck, they even posted the results.

 

But either way assume the worst on first party benchmarks. From all companies hahaha.

 

 

And I do mean rigorously...

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/benchmarks/2019-xeon-scalable-benchmark.html

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Posted
12 hours ago, ErrantNyles said:

You should also add an update to the original story, the version used by Intel is outdated (2019.3 while 2019.4 is the most recent) and was NOT even optimized for Zen2 (didn't use AVX2 instructions), which now is. Patrick J Kennedy tweeted about it.

 

So the results are even more inaccurate than what is shown...

 

Edit: tweet referenced

 

 

I translate this to mean what I already know: if you want your shit to work off the bat you buy Intel.  If you want to worry about shit like what exact RAM your using and having to update everything and be on a buggy platform to save an amount of $ that is trivial to enterprise, buy AMD.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I translate this to mean what I already know: if you want your shit to work off the bat you buy Intel.  If you want to worry about shit like what exact RAM your using and having to update everything and be on a buggy platform to save an amount of $ that is trivial to enterprise, buy AMD.

You say this like intel never had issues when releasing a whole new cpu architecture......

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I translate this to mean what I already know: if you want your shit to work off the bat you buy Intel.  If you want to worry about shit like what exact RAM your using and having to update everything and be on a buggy platform to save an amount of $ that is trivial to enterprise, buy AMD.

Or you could have used 2019.2 and have the same problem on both Intel and AMD, that version wasn't optimized for Cascade Lake-SP/Cascade Lake-AP either. Only idiots use software not optimized for new architectures and use the performance results for comparisons and reference points. Unless you're showing before and after it's hardly useful.

 

We were one of the first large deployments in the world of HPE DL360 Gen9 servers on ESXi, just happened to align with release and our purchase timing nothing special, which came with a critical flaw that causes the hypervisior to purple screen (PSOD) and HPE had to release an emergency firmware fix and world wide notification, yea Intel platforms 'just work' always and have 'no issues ever'.

 

And you have to worry about what ram you are using with Intel, like it's extremely damn important. Did you know there is a difference between Low Voltage ECC Registered Memory and not Low Voltage when it comes to operating speed and number of DIMMs you can use per channel? Did you know it matters which order and which memory slots you populate? There is no throw ram in ram slots on Intel server platforms and "She'll be right", not a thing.

 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.3da29c2f7a692308fdc53e66c2ddb815.png

image.thumb.png.86d3e01c77ad05db102e69aa0f6be966.png

 

image.thumb.png.44d00c7cf0ab08523d4bb5fd5ff52fcd.png

(E5-2600v3)

The specifics change every generation, it was confusing enough for some when it came to Skylake-SP Intel reduced the maximum memory support on all Xeons and created a sub SKU with a M suffix that supported twice the memory (basically what we could have previously) so the majority would never encounter the issue because you could not cross the threshold where you wold run in to problems unless you specifically brought the correct Xeon which also means you know what you're doing (probably, hopefully).

Edited by leadeater
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7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Or you could have used 2019.2 and have the same problem on both Intel and AMD, that version wasn't optimized for Skylake-SP either. Only idiots use software not optimized for new architectures and use the performance results for comparisons and reference points. Unless you're showing before and after it's hardly useful.

 

 

So are you saying that there was a legitimate reason they used 2019.3?  because apart from not surprising me they would do that, it also doesn't surprise me that internet plebs are tripping over themselves to shit all over something without understanding half of it.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So are you saying that there was a legitimate reason they used 2019.3?  because apart from not surprising me they would do that, it also doesn't surprise me that internet plebs are tripping over themselves to shit all over something without understanding half of it.

Well what we learned/already knew is that Intel marketing works because if people believe Intel CPUs just work with no optimizations, have no issues, or what ever else then it's been effective.

 

The people that actually know know that it's only marketing and there is no guarantee of anything unless the hardware platform and software has been tested and optimized for what you are using and even then you may not be issue free, re: my HPE DL360 Gen9 example. That's why Intel puts out ES and QS sample so early to so many important industry organizations to try and catch as many issues before general release, but nobody is perfect.

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7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So are you saying that there was a legitimate reason they used 2019.3?  because apart from not surprising me they would do that, it also doesn't surprise me that internet plebs are tripping over themselves to shit all over something without understanding half of it.

I didn't get that from his point. The point I saw him making was that Intel can run into stability, compatibility and optimization issues just like AMD. In the release prior to 2019.3, Intel was having the exact same performance issues that AMD was having, and that the "it just works" Apple philosophy did not apply to Intel. It was also made in the context of addressing the person he quoted. Intel likely could have used 2019.4 and been fine, but it's difficult to say if they did this on purpose to skew the results in their favor.

 

Given Intel's track record, it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well what we learned/already knew is that Intel marketing works because if people believe Intel CPUs just work with no optimizations, have no issues, or what ever else then it's been effective.

 

The people that actually know know that it's only marketing and there is no guarantee of anything unless the hardware platform and software has been tested and optimized for what you are using and even then you may not be issue free, re: my HPE DL360 Gen9 example. That's why Intel puts out ES and QS sample so early to so many important industry organizations to try and catch as many issues before general release, but nobody is perfect.

 

5 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I didn't get that from his point. The point I saw him making was that Intel can run into stability, compatibility and optimization issues just like AMD. In the release prior to 2019.3, Intel was having the exact same performance issues that AMD was having, and that the "it just works" Apple philosophy did not apply to Intel. It was also made in the context of addressing the person he quoted. Intel likely could have used 2019.4 and been fine, but it's difficult to say if they did this on purpose to skew the results in their favor.

 

Given Intel's track record, it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I got that, what I didn't get was that there might have been a reason for using 2019.3 other than comparative performance metrics against AMD

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 hour ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I translate this to mean what I already know: if you want your shit to work off the bat you buy Intel.  If you want to worry about shit like what exact RAM your using and having to update everything and be on a buggy platform to save an amount of $ that is trivial to enterprise, buy AMD.

This is utterly wrong.

 

The bug was in the SOFTWARE used to benchmark, not the platform.

 

And while in general 1st gen Ryzen was pretty buggy as a whole, that's changed a lot by now.

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10 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/193480-intel-finally-agrees-to-pay-15-to-pentium-4-owners-over-amd-athlon-benchmarking-shenanigans

image.jpeg.f6f5f674b091aefa86245279f9efd666.jpeg

Reading through that, it sounds more like Intel owes money to people who bought *AMD* parts during that time frame. It's one thing for marketing to be dishonest about their products. That wastes your time and money sorting fact from falsehood. 

 

It's rather a different thing to build in tools that directly damages your competitors' products. If they're willing to do that with their compilers, why wouldn't they be willing to do that with their, say, solid state drives or wireless modems? 

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18 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Apparently people still don't understand that first party benchmarks are always bullshit and all big companies does it. 

Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc. Do not trust benchmarks from them. They all have a history of putting out misleading marketing material.

 

I mean, what do people expect? That the marketing department doesn't try and make their products seem as appealing as possible? 

I think people are more mad because ryan shrout keeps either making or linking to these articles and he used to be highly respected independent tech press. It's hard to respect this, but not unexpected from Intel, sure

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Well, it's likely not going to be a death sentence. Using platform specific optimizations in benchmarking results has been done to death, usually with no major, long lasting consequences. In general, overselling products is quite common in the tech industry.

Most tech companies intentionally cherry pick results and even optimize things in their favor. AMD does it too, and it wasn't too long ago that the roles were reversed: AMD was caught intentionally misleading consumers about the configuration of their chips with the intent to make them believe that they would have better performance than they actually did.

ENCRYPTION IS NOT A CRIME

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12 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

1577274338_Takemymoney.jpg.e65e5baefe7a62c7fe0091ebadb99a3b.jpg

"The more you buy, the more you save!"  Oh…wait...

PREORDER NOW!

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23 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah but what company or manager is seeing benchmarks from a tweet and basing mulit-million dollar investments on it? 

 

well, lots of companies do that. one in particular is that blonde lady who emulated the apple guy and she made blood analyzers and some major (retail?) company dumped multi-millions into that venture without due care and they got what was coming to them. scores of assumptions.

Elizabeth Holmes with Therano's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theranos

 

 

--> based on a tweet, probably personal investors no doubt about that, but a tweet could be apart of a larger operation of deception.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

Well, it's likely not going to be a death sentence. Using platform specific optimizations in benchmarking results has been done to death, usually with no major, long lasting consequences. In general, overselling products is quite common in the tech industry.

Most tech companies intentionally cherry pick results and even optimize things in their favor. AMD does it too, and it wasn't too long ago that the roles were reversed: AMD was caught intentionally misleading consumers about the configuration of their chips with the intent to make them believe that they would have better performance than they actually did.

All companies cherry pick when they market their wares.  They all do it and this one isn't even a particularly bad example.  It's not deceptive as many would have us believe.  But this forum seems to have a short memory for other companies doing it, if it's Intel then they dig up shit that they did decades ago as if it is still relevant today.  Can't remember the last time I saw someone dig up the price fixing emails from AMD/NVIDIA, but of course people were only complaining about NVIDIA inflating the price.

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-amd-ati-graphics,6311.html. 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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35 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Can't remember the last time I saw someone dig up the price fixing emails from AMD/NVIDIA, but of course people were only complaining about NVIDIA inflating the price.

Wasn't that actually ATI, not AMD?  I seem to recall those e-mails were from before the AMD acquisition.

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/449522-smoking-barrels-ltts-unnofficial-gun-club/

 

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30 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Wasn't that actually ATI, not AMD?  I seem to recall those e-mails were from before the AMD acquisition.

2006 right on or just after the acquiisition, the reports were that it was between AMD and NVIDIA, ATU name is all over the paper work because AMD kept ATI as the official trade name for quite some time afte teh acquisition.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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