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Intel passing off bogus Xeon Server 'metrics'

Go to solution Solved by justpoet,
1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

You say this like intel never had issues when releasing a whole new cpu architecture......

Intel is perfect, itanium is the future.

I am a bit of an old guy, I now realize. I've been at this for several decades.

 

I have been following Charlie Demerjian for some time now since when he was at The Inquirer.

 

Today he put up a tweet condemning some performance metrics put out by Ryan Shrout:

 

If you read through that tweet you will find that at some point in responding to Shrout's tweet he says:

 

"Ah screw it, I should just write an article."

 

It's in this tweet comments:

The article was written in five hours, and is very well written.

 

In the article he shows how Intel and Shrout are now blatantly misleading with bogus numbers. Comparing $20k parts which use more power than one $7K part with cooked benchmark numbers which the FTC had told them that they weren't allowed to use as benchmarks without some form of disclosure.

 

https://www.semiaccurate.com/2019/11/05/intel-messaging-hits-a-new-low/

 

Quote

The ‘blog’ in question is one of the newest ways Intel is trying to put out a message around the press. The company has all but destroyed the credibility of their messaging of late and rather than fix the problem, they are trying to work around it. Rather than being honest or explaining their dubious and at times outright misleading claims, they are attempting to go directly to the public who might not be aware of how things are being skewed.

 

Intel has a long history of misleading consumers, the last one to get widespread coverage was that Principled Technologies debacle in 2018.

 

Serve the Home also did a response:

The above t.co link references the STH article that they did on the 5th. It can also been seen here:

https://www.servethehome.com/intel-performance-strategy-team-publishing-intentionally-misleading-benchmarks/

 

In STH's article they dissect one result used in the Shrout graph called GROMACS. They show that the 'performance strategy' team used an non-Zen2 optimized version 2019.3, when an optimized version 2019.4 that had been RTP for a month before they put out the article.

Quote

One can only conclude that Intel’s “Performance at Intel” blog is not a reputable attempt to present factual information.

 

If you want @Demerjian has been tweeting throughout the afternoon and this night with other things about this.

 

Here's the Shrout team's response:

 

https://medium.com/performance-at-intel/hpc-leadership-where-it-matters-real-world-performance-b16c47b11a01

 

And Charlie's response to their article:

EDIT: this will probably go on and on and on. TH3 is out today so, expect some sniping and bad benchmarks the other way too.

Edited by WillyW
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The EPYC 7742 is the best example of this.

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Yeah but what company or manager is seeing benchmarks from a tweet and basing mulit-million dollar investments on it? 

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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6 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah but what company or manager is seeing benchmarks from a tweet and basing mulit-million dollar investments on it? 

Then what was all the fuss with Elon Musk then? 

What kind of person would invest in a company based on a tweet?

 

At this point I think Intel are better off keeping their mouth shut, there are always going to be those people that buy Xeon no matter what, and most of the negative press Intel have been getting recently is caused by their own marketing department!

 

They still have a 'good' product, but they're doing an AMD and overhyping the shite out of them, which is backfiring on them big time!

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Seen Ryan Shrout parroting same bullshit Intel was believing already in their delusion? They hired a new guy who was suppose to get Intel out of this shit and he's just doing the same thing Intel was doing before. LOL? I thought the point of hiring a new guy was to have an uncorrupted perspective from an outsider what needs to be done to gain market leadership again. Instead they keep on banging on their chest how awesome they are. While not being awesome at all. AMD really needs to kick more of their butts and gain even more of their market to a point where it'll REALLY hurt Intel and maybe then they'll wake up from their delusion. Until then, AMD, bring it on and keep the winning streak. I want to upgrade my desktop to AMD while AMD is on the winning again but I'm not just ready to upgrade whole system just yet...

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8 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah but what company or manager is seeing benchmarks from a tweet and basing mulit-million dollar investments on it? 

Thing is, it rarely works in the way many think it does. Most big companies have preferred suppliers. They will simply buy in from companies like Fujitsu, HP or Dell. Most will leave the worry of what is inside to the manufacturers. The big manufacturers have deals tied up with intel years in advance. It makes any change very slow in the market where Xeon gets the green stuff. Tweets like the above may make intel look silly in the tech geek world, but it will almost certainly not affect them where they make their money

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People get their jimmies rustled over this?

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

People get their jimmies rustled over this?

Apparently people still don't understand that first party benchmarks are always bullshit and all big companies does it. 

Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc. Do not trust benchmarks from them. They all have a history of putting out misleading marketing material.

 

I mean, what do people expect? That the marketing department doesn't try and make their products seem as appealing as possible? 

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3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Apparently people still don't understand that first party benchmarks are always bullshit and all big companies does it. 

Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc. Do not trust benchmarks from them. They all have a history of putting out misleading marketing material.

 

I mean, what do people expect? That the marketing department doesn't try and make their products seem as appealing as possible? 

Not only that, but much of the hatred is simply because AMD has a cheaper product.  People haven't worked out that price doesn't effect performance, it's just another factor for the end user to consider.

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 hours ago, WillyW said:

cut

You should also add an update to the original story, the version used by Intel is outdated (2019.3 while 2019.4 is the most recent) and was NOT even optimized for Zen2 (didn't use AVX2 instructions), which now is. Patrick J Kennedy tweeted about it.

 

So the results are even more inaccurate than what is shown...

 

Edit: tweet referenced

 

 

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i guess the 9282 is a pretty good density chip. and tbh, thats not a bad market to claw onto while they are getting smacked in other segments. 

 

and first party benchmarks are as allways flawed. 

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16 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

and first party benchmarks are as allways flawed. 

Not so much flawed, more like conveniently arrived at.   All the relevant information is presented and they aren't hiding anything.   We can reproduce these results or if they like AMD can reproduce the same test using updated software and present a different result.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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*insert face disk*

 

but why am i not surprised

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4 hours ago, yolosnail said:

Then what was all the fuss with Elon Musk then? 

What kind of person would invest in a company based on a tweet?

Elon situation is very different. He's the CEO, and was making a direct statement on the company worth. If you can't trust the CEO on financial matters, who can you trust?

 

2 hours ago, ErrantNyles said:

You should also add an update to the original story, the version used by Intel is outdated (2019.3 while 2019.4 is the most recent) and was NOT even optimized for Zen2 (didn't use AVX2 instructions), which now is. Patrick J Kennedy tweeted about it.

Too lazy to go back and find reference, but apparently the 2019.4 version was released ~4 weeks ago. The .3 version was optimised for Zen and the updates were only recently put into .4 version once the dev got their hands on Rome to optimise again.

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5 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah but what company or manager is seeing benchmarks from a tweet and basing mulit-million dollar investments on it? 

 

Why do the investments need to be above a certain threshold before misleading consumers becomes wrong? 

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35 minutes ago, porina said:

Elon situation is very different. He's the CEO, and was making a direct statement on the company worth. If you can't trust the CEO on financial matters, who can you trust?

 

Too lazy to go back and find reference, but apparently the 2019.4 version was released ~4 weeks ago. The .3 version was optimised for Zen and the updates were only recently put into .4 version once the dev got their hands on Rome to optimise again.

http://manual.gromacs.org/current/release-notes/2019/2019.4.html#added-amd-zen-2-detection

 

Look at the bottom. Zen2 was not being correctly recognized in 2019.3 and was working as a Zen1 core (without any optimization).

 

The result are GREATLY different on 2019.4, where Epyc CPUs scores a lot more on some tests than in 2019.3 so it should really be noted.

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4 minutes ago, ErrantNyles said:

http://manual.gromacs.org/current/release-notes/2019/2019.4.html#added-amd-zen-2-detection

 

Look at the bottom. Zen2 was not being correctly recognized in 2019.3 and was working as a Zen1 core (without any optimization).

 

The result are GREATLY different on 2019.4, where Epyc CPUs scores a lot more on some tests than in 2019.3 so it should really be noted.

Agreed, if I was running this workload this would be of great significance to me also. In my hobby of prime number finding it also makes great use of AVX functions, and Zen 2 is a huge improvement (ball park 2x IPC) over Zen 1.

 

We don't know if Ryan/Intel operated in ignorance of the new version, or if they intentionally ignored it. At least they were open about the version they used, so their result is not technically wrong, but can be construed as misleading.

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2 hours ago, porina said:

Agreed, if I was running this workload this would be of great significance to me also. In my hobby of prime number finding it also makes great use of AVX functions, and Zen 2 is a huge improvement (ball park 2x IPC) over Zen 1.

 

We don't know if Ryan/Intel operated in ignorance of the new version, or if they intentionally ignored it. At least they were open about the version they used, so their result is not technically wrong, but can be construed as misleading.

How does AMD compare to Intel now, on AVX workloads? 

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

Not only that, but much of the hatred is simply because AMD has a cheaper product.  People haven't worked out that price doesn't effect performance, it's just another factor for the end user to consider.

 

 

People also forget that in the highest segment, Price:Performance is measured differently. Time is money, especially when you're paying employees to get a project finished and the performance of their equipment impacts the duration of that project. Most companies will pay a much larger up front investment, even for a measly 10% performance boost, if that 10% saves them money in the long run.

 

The consumer mindset is often incorrectly applied in this context which is where a lot of this outrage comes from. As @LAwLz eloquently put it, no marketing reps worth their salary will come out and say that the competition is offering a better product, or that you can outperform their product by buying multiple cheaper products from the competition. Omitting the price differences of the CPU's in that segment does not bother me in the slightest.

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12 minutes ago, GOTSpectrum said:

How does AMD compare to Intel now, on AVX workloads? 

I can only speak of Prime95 and similar uses which make heavy use of FP64 instructions. Very rough relative peak performance, per core, per clock, if not limited by cache/ram:

 

Intel consumer Skylake through Coffee Lake: 100%

Zen 2: >100% (I don't have an exact number yet but it seems to be slightly faster)

Zen, Zen+: around 50% (didn't work it out exactly)

Intel AVX-512 two unit implementations (Skylake-X, some Xeons): 200%-ish

 

Emphasise again these are peak rates and in actual use cases, other factors may limit and narrow the differences. Since this is normalised per core, per clock, you can kinda brute force it by simply having more cores like AMD are doing. Then we can get into things like caches and ran bandwidth...

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Intel still hasn't figured out how to deal with being beaten by AMD and are reeling. EIther they'll figure it out or they REALLY won't.

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@WillyW STH has since published an article on this, you might want to add it to the sources :)https://www.servethehome.com/intel-performance-strategy-team-publishing-intentionally-misleading-benchmarks/ 

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Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

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Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, porina said:

I can only speak of Prime95 and similar uses which make heavy use of FP64 instructions. Very rough relative peak performance, per core, per clock, if not limited by cache/ram:

 

Intel consumer Skylake through Coffee Lake: 100%

Zen 2: >100% (I don't have an exact number yet but it seems to be slightly faster)

Zen, Zen+: around 50% (didn't work it out exactly)

Intel AVX-512 two unit implementations (Skylake-X, some Xeons): 200%-ish

 

Emphasise again these are peak rates and in actual use cases, other factors may limit and narrow the differences. Since this is normalised per core, per clock, you can kinda brute force it by simply having more cores like AMD are doing. Then we can get into things like caches and ran bandwidth...

Thanks for the general overview, its interesting to say the least

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