Linux channel but different. Hear me out.

[Waza69]

I think all Linux challenges so far have been diving into it with zero support on the side.

 

This isn't the way people roll into Linux generally. Most times, someone persuaded them to use Linux, and if someone makes the effort to persuade you, they are often open to give you a bit of guidance/help for the first couple of weeks, or even set up your system for you. You know I can set up a system for you in about an hour and I'm sure most of your games and apps will just work? There are going to be a few exceptions, I'm not denying that. But it only takes an hour to get 99% there from a starting position. I'd rather spend an hour to set up your PC and make sure 99% of your stuff works on day one, than to receive 7 phonecalls on the first day. And this can be easily automated with a simple shell script.

 

If you abuse that help, they might start to dislike you, but how is that different from if you sell a PC to someone in your family? You know this, you've mentioned this a lot lot in your videos. You won't abuse this, you'll use it when you've hit a roadblock that you can't seem to get around. And there's a good chance, it can be fixed in 5 to 10 minutes with a few terminal commands.

 

I'm not asking to have some absolute Linux expert as a helpline, but at least someone who's been using Linux for several years as their main OS. Cause that's the kinda person that is most likely going to be the person that recommended you to try out Linux to begin with. True experts often don't want to risk being their free personal helpdesk. And brand new users are still figuring out if Linux is right for them. This is a real world scenario.

 

Do some kind of discord interview or something, invite people over for a WAN show, do a little side quest at a LAN party. And just interview a couple people to test their Linux knowledge. If someone has several years of knowledge and uses it as their main system, that's the person you go with, you don't need an expert by your side as a helpline.

 

Just some person that is willing to help you set up the system, and if any problems happen in the first 2 weeks, they help you solve it. Do the next weeks solo like you did in previous Linux challenges. The results are going to be vastly different. It's that initial setup and a few minor adjustments in the first week that make or break the experience. After that, you could be using Linux for years without needing a personal helpline at all.

[Dutch_Master]

Actually, when Linus and Luke did their Linux challenges, they had a 'helpline' of sorts; Anthony (now Emily) but also Wendell (L1T) for sure. Perhaps others too, IDK.

 

Besides, both hosts are familiar enough with operating systems (Luke is a coder after all) to be able to figure stuff out on their own, although in Linus' case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing as he's proven during the last challenge

 

Anyway, I understand from some comments Linus made in a video (can't recall which one, could be a WAN show episode) they consider doing another one if certain conditions are met (again, don't recall the specifics ATM) so hopefully we'll see them breeze through that one

[Poinkachu]

1 hour ago, Waza69 said:

I think all Linux challenges so far have been diving into it with zero support on the side.

 

This isn't the way people roll into Linux generally. Most times, someone persuaded them to use Linux, and if someone makes the effort to persuade you, they are often open to give you a bit of guidance/help for the first couple of weeks, or even set up your system for you. You know I can set up a system for you in about an hour and I'm sure most of your games and apps will just work? There are going to be a few exceptions, I'm not denying that. But it only takes an hour to get 99% there from a starting position. I'd rather spend an hour to set up your PC and make sure 99% of your stuff works on day one, than to receive 7 phonecalls on the first day. And this can be easily automated with a simple shell script.

 

If you abuse that help, they might start to dislike you, but how is that different from if you sell a PC to someone in your family? You know this, you've mentioned this a lot lot in your videos. You won't abuse this, you'll use it when you've hit a roadblock that you can't seem to get around. And there's a good chance, it can be fixed in 5 to 10 minutes with a few terminal commands.

 

I'm not asking to have some absolute Linux expert as a helpline, but at least someone who's been using Linux for several years as their main OS. Cause that's the kinda person that is most likely going to be the person that recommended you to try out Linux to begin with. True experts often don't want to risk being their free personal helpdesk. And brand new users are still figuring out if Linux is right for them. This is a real world scenario.

 

Do some kind of discord interview or something, invite people over for a WAN show, do a little side quest at a LAN party. And just interview a couple people to test their Linux knowledge. If someone has several years of knowledge and uses it as their main system, that's the person you go with, you don't need an expert by your side as a helpline.

 

Just some person that is willing to help you set up the system, and if any problems happen in the first 2 weeks, they help you solve it. Do the next weeks solo like you did in previous Linux challenges. The results are going to be vastly different. It's that initial setup and a few minor adjustments in the first week that make or break the experience. After that, you could be using Linux for years without needing a personal helpline at all.

"roadblock that you can't seem to get around" is pretty subjective.
For some people in depth networking problem is a roadblock they can't seem to get around.

For some other people, even installing Windows or unzipping a file is a roadblock they can't seem to get around (I do have some friends like this)

 

The idea behind jumping in with "zero" support. Because not that many people have their own personal helpline that is willing to help out at random time, and high chance it will be repeatedly.

 

I get your point that in some cases it is recommended by someone close by, but there is still no guarantee that that someone will always be able to help ya, or willing to, when you need it. No guarantee even for family member.

Some people recommend just because they want more people to use it for various reasons, but bail out at the first sign of trouble.

 

It's not about the first 2 weeks, not even about the first 3 months.

It's about when something doesn't work while it usually just consists of pressing next button until finish. Will help and/or solution be easy to get or not.

[gentlemanspot]

I feel even a "how to" or "what to"  and "Where to" search guide would help most people. 

 

even a few pre-reqs on a check list

Like watching Learn Linux tv. etc 

[Waza69]

7 hours ago, Dutch_Master said:

Actually, when Linus and Luke did their Linux challenges, they had a 'helpline' of sorts; Anthony (now Emily) but also Wendell (L1T) for sure. Perhaps others too, IDK.

I don't remember either one of them actually using this helpline. I do have more trust in Luke to be able to figure things out over time, he also chose Mint, which is the better option for a newbie. But Linus is freaking helpless when it comes to Linux in my opinion. He needs that initial boost to get started.

 

Get them set up with a system that was pre-build and pre-configured, while the people who set it up had in mind which games they want to play.

 

It's going to be a completely different video. Maybe make the challenge about "who can set up the best Linux PC for someone who usually doesn't use Linux?"

[Waza69]

8 hours ago, Poinkachu said:

"roadblock that you can't seem to get around" is pretty subjective.
For some people in depth networking problem is a roadblock they can't seem to get around.

For some other people, even installing Windows or unzipping a file is a roadblock they can't seem to get around (I do have some friends like this)

Agreed fully on that roadblock perspective, I've gone through this too often, idk if you know the saying, people "too stupid too wipe their own ass"... It does feel like this sometimes.

8 hours ago, Dutch_Master said:

Actually, when Linus and Luke did their Linux challenges, they had a 'helpline' of sorts; Anthony (now Emily) but also Wendell (L1T) for sure. Perhaps others too, IDK.

That helpline was too advanced, we know Anthony/Emily just knows a lot about Linux, that's not a fair challenge. Also in real life, someone with that kinda knowledge wouldn't be willing to spend too many hours to help a newbie.

 

I want someone who's been using Linux for a couple years, who isn't a newbie anymore, but has surely fixed a lot of their problems and gotten most of their games to work. This would be a real life situation. This is the kinda person that will try to get you to use Linux. It's not the total newbies and it's not the total experts, it's the middle ground that will try to win you over. And they're also the best in terms of trying to help you out to get your system set up.

 

Edit: Crucial detail, While Anthony/Emily might know a lot about Linux, I think their expertise is focused in certain aspects. They're freaking good at what they do and they about it in the smallest details. This is not the kinda person you want as a helpline for a Linux challenge. You want some average person, that basically just "wanted to use Linux" and cause of that has learned the key aspects of getting Linux to work perfectly from a basic user kind of perspective. This is how most people use their PC. They play some game, they use some apps, they don't deep dive into a certain specific detail. For general day to day use, this is the helpline you need.

[Doobeedoo]

Linux needs a proper go-to distro for mainstream and similar to Windows in UI/UX for general folk with least as possible config. But also for certain software to work easily, so dev support too. 

Linux is literally everywhere except desktops. There is just decent amount of software that doesn't work, be it some more legacy, popular in general, or newer. Same for games, certain launcher and online games restrictions.

It's that annoying thing which side will start first, software devs for support on small % OS or OS for more mainstream crowd that grows and devs will see that to support.

[LapsedMemory]

I think many of you missed the point of a tech reviewer like LTT doing the Linux challenge.  The point was to see how far Linux had come at being a general purpose user desktop environment.  Most users on Windows or Mac don't need to be contacting a tech support helpline for simple tasks.  If Linux is going to be a system for the masses, then it has to reach that level of functionality.  The LTT challenge was to determine how close it is to that goal.  

 

I've been a Linux user for ~22 years.  I have zero qualms about how they ran the LTT challenge.  I know exactly how frustrating linux can be, but I also know exactly where it shines, and where it will beat Windows hands-down.  It's why my every-day laptop is running Linux, and my gaming desktop is still running Windows.  

 

The only thing I don't know is how Linus can routinely break every Linux installation he's used within 10 minutes.  I am not a superstitious man, but I have to wonder if Linus was a penguin killer in a former life. 

[Waza69]

4 hours ago, LapsedMemory said:

The only thing I don't know is how Linus can routinely break every Linux installation he's used within 10 minutes.  I am not a superstitious man, but I have to wonder if Linus was a penguin killer in a former life. 

4 hours ago, LapsedMemory said:

 

This one surprised me the most. Luke does great overall, Linus can break Linux within 10 minutes. It's literally hard to break Linux nowadays if you're using a distro that's somewhat build for people new to Linux. There's a lot of people that use their PC for some random internet browsing and maybe some banking (probably also on a website), people who basically live in a browser. Which nowadays is more than 50% of people.

[Waza69]

5 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Linux needs a proper go-to distro

I'd personally go for Linux Mint. It just freaking works. I haven't used a terminal in a year. I personally would love if Steam was pre-installed, but that goes against the idea of Linux, it's YOUR choice, so nothing is forced on you with pre-installs. And it just takes a minute to install Steam anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. If you're a gamer, you install Steam, if not, you don't. That's the beauty of Linux you're in control and Mint isn't trying to force anything upon you.

[Doobeedoo]

18 minutes ago, Waza69 said:

I'd personally go for Linux Mint. It just freaking works. I haven't used a terminal in a year. I personally would love if Steam was pre-installed, but that goes against the idea of Linux, it's YOUR choice, so nothing is forced on you with pre-installs. And it just takes a minute to install Steam anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference. If you're a gamer, you install Steam, if not, you don't. That's the beauty of Linux you're in control and Mint isn't trying to force anything upon you.

Right, I mean yeah sure Steam working, though not every game can. Also other launchers and general support as wide as Windows though. There are number of reasons and programs and games that don't work or no alternatives to them. Maybe one day that can change.

[Jortand]

I see a few problems with your assumptions. You have to assume that the average person who is what these kinds of videos are targeting has noone around them who is tech-savvy or even know what Linux is, so you have to assume the internet is the only place people that want to jump to Linux will get their information. The biggest problem with Linux currently is that if you are someone who has only ever used a Windows or Mac machine you have no idea what a distro is, there are a million lists out there are a million different options you might say "just choose Mint it's so easy" OK? Why is it easy? Why is this other guy saying to instal arch? Why does the list at the top of Google tell me to get Ubuntu, what's the difference, no clue? Then, when they finally get to the installation it's not just next, next, next, OK done go watch YouTube now, like with Windows or Mac.

 

Getting people to switch to Linux is not about forcing them to just do the switch, it's making the experience of installing and running Linux not feel like a full-time job that you need to study for. The first Linux video from LTT made it look that way, because in most cases for the average person it will be, even the smallest issue that you might see as a quick 5-second fix is a 5-hour search to find a fix for someone else. The day you can recommend Linux to your Mom, Dad, Grandma without having to sit there for a day to install everything with them and having them call you once a week for a problem, is the day Linux will be adopted. Probably the main reason people are gravitating towards ChromeOS, which is Linux, so a win in a sense, but probably not the type of win most Linux people imagined.

[Sauron]

The problem is that if you're not actually interested in using Linux then every obstacle, no matter how small, is going to feel like a pointless chore and make you give up.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:32 PM, Doobeedoo said:

Linux needs a proper go-to distro for mainstream and similar to Windows in UI/UX for general folk with least as possible config. But also for certain software to work easily, so dev support too. 

It is funny, over in the OS section someone asked for advice on how to switch to Linux, now that MS does all the shady AI stuff. What follows after a few helpful comments is the usual "X Distro better than Y!" vs "No, Y is evil because <seemingly obscure technical reason>!" vs "Use K because X breaks easily and Y is evil"

 

No offense to the people involved over there, you will have your reasons. But how do you expect people to switch, when this is the start of the experience.

[RollyShed]

Where does anyone get the information to use a Windows computer?

 

So many users read emails, look on the web, maybe do a document, possibly a spreadsheet. So?

Exactly the same way as is done on a Windows machine.

 

Actually not the same as it is easier on Linux, or certainly is if I've set it up.

 

In the Panel / Task Bar are the quick accesses to the web browsers and office items, LibreOfiice obviously, and the same as was used on the Windows machine if the person had any sense.

 

From what I've said, what experience have I had?

50+ laptops and a total of over 100 computers for various people and organisations. Is that enough?

 

As for problems, there is a very good forum for Linux Mint.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

3 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Where does anyone get the information to use a Windows computer?

 

I was thinking about this during lunch break, so here are my ramblings about this:

School (in the past) and coworkers, family and friends, internet. Some also get training. And yes, a lot of people only know the basics for the stuff they want to do, but have no real concept for how computers work.

 

Side-tangent: I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I'm from there is/was a lot of talk about "digital natives" aka the younger generations that just magically knew how to use stuff because they grew up with it. How they use all of this technology and embrace it naturally etc. Always found this to be naive and dangerous; people might be able to use it intuitively, but in the end it is just becoming more and more arcane "magic". 

When you think about it, we all are "automotive natives", yet I'd argue less people than ever can work on a car themselves (me included).

 

Anyway, the idea that people could just swap over to Linux and learn it themselves like with windows: they can't and will not, at least not easily. They learned from other people using it, from work using it etc. If nobody around them is using Linux, why would they? Why would they start learning a new OS (and yes, I've seen many people struggle with just a new version of Office) when the old one is still working?

 

So I think, rather ironically, the people who could do the change most easily (because they need only basic features) are the least likely to make the change, unless a lot already made the change.

 

And the enthusiast crowd, who would have the ability and knowledge (or could realistically acquire the knowledge) has either already swapped long ago, or is still not convinced because of... what actually? Core features not working reliably or as good as on Windows (i.e. gaming). No clear path to get into the space, with a dozen or so distros to chose from and wildly differing opinions on what is the best way to go.

 

What I am trying to say is that there is not enough value in going linux for most regular gamers, apart from the ever increasing pressure to move away from Windows due to MS shenanigans. But that is not Pro Linux, that is anti-MS. 

 

 

[10leej]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:13 AM, Dutch_Master said:

Actually, when Linus and Luke did their Linux challenges, they had a 'helpline' of sorts; Anthony (now Emily) but also Wendell (L1T) for sure. Perhaps others too, IDK.

Linus and Luke did not reference Wendel or EMily, but they did ask for support form the distro forums. Overall many of the issues they ran into with the challenge was just some chocie UX decisions the DE's made and the decision of non support game developers have decided upon.

So while the Linux Challenge was shown to be painful there's really not much a "linux expert" can really do to help them.

[RollyShed]

10 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Anyway, the idea that people could just swap over to Linux and learn it themselves like with windows: they can't and will not, at least not easily.

They can and do and very easy.

 

Their Windows laptop takes 8 minutes to boot and crashes and other problems. Options, spend a couple of thousand dollars (new computer) or spend $50 (fit an SSD) and maybe a dollar or two more for "services rendered". I've done over 50 SSD to laptop with Linux installations.

 

I keep saying I've seen it here, my partner Windows one day, Linux Mint the next because of MS wiping everything.

Did she have problems? No.

Did she need instruction? No.

Is it reliable? Yes.

Does it do everything needed? Yes.

 

I'm talking about those non-gamers who use their computer as a tool.

 

Web browsers - Firefox, Chromium

Office suite - LibreOffice

 

Do those work on Windows? Yes.

Do those work on Linux? Yes.

 

Computer instruction for older users can be given by SeniorNet which has branches in a lot of countries. Unfortunately they are generally ignorant and don't know about Linux though might know about Apple computers.

 

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

18 hours ago, RollyShed said:

I've done over 50 SSD to laptop with Linux installations.

You've done it, but not the people themselves.

 

That is the point, they had someone to do it for them. To set up the system, to install all of the software/figure out which one to install.

 

Meanwhile, go and ask the question which Linux Distro to go with in a linux place, you'll get ten answers from five people. Latest case in point:

 

 

[Brian McKee]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:28 AM, RollyShed said:

Where does anyone get the information to use a Windows computer?

 

So many users read emails, look on the web, maybe do a document, possibly a spreadsheet. So?

Exactly the same way as is done on a Windows machine.

 

Actually not the same as it is easier on Linux, or certainly is if I've set it up.

 

In the Panel / Task Bar are the quick accesses to the web browsers and office items, LibreOfiice obviously, and the same as was used on the Windows machine if the person had any sense.

 

From what I've said, what experience have I had?

50+ laptops and a total of over 100 computers for various people and organisations. Is that enough?

 

As for problems, there is a very good forum for Linux Mint.

Expanding on this idea is the fact that there's tons of crap that windows throws at you that us life long windows users just know how to deal with. Nothing I've encountered in my recent move over to Linux has been more frustrating than anything I've experienced in Windows at some point...

 

In fact the really only annoying thing I've ran into is something the average user probably wouldn't encounter, which is trying to use certain depreciated software on modern distros, like older versions of Python or Java.

 

This happens with Windows too of course, though not as commonly. However, I've had to help my fair share of people get their Backyard Baseball or some other old ass game running on their modern Windows machine.

[Brian McKee]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:56 PM, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Meanwhile, go and ask the question which Linux Distro to go with in a linux place, you'll get ten answers from five people. Latest case in point:

 

 

What in the world does this matter? You could set up a dart board of all the top level modern distros and pick one at random and have a completely painless experience. Doesn't matter if it's Debian, Fedora or even Arch based these days, most distros have been made extremely refined for the end user.

 

Outside of some proprietary hardware someone might happen to own not being supported by the company, what pain points is the average person actually gonna encounter with Linux?

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

2 hours ago, Brian McKee said:

What in the world does this matter? You could set up a dart board of all the top level modern distros and pick one at random and have a completely painless experience. Doesn't matter if it's Debian, Fedora or even Arch based these days, most distros have been made extremely refined for the end user.

Because when you are asking the question of why normal people don't go Linux, you have to consider what that would look like.

And in that case the first thing they crash into is: Linux != Linux because it comes in so many flavors.

 

You are probably right in that it doesn't really matter, just like it doesn't matter which car brand you buy when you just need "a car". But people who come from Windows and want to switch, NOT because they find Linux interesting but because Windows has become too much of a pain and Apple is too expensive, they will quickly bounce off something like this.

[Brian McKee]

9 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Because when you are asking the question of why normal people don't go Linux, you have to consider what that would look like.

And in that case the first thing they crash into is: Linux != Linux because it comes in so many flavors.

 

You are probably right in that it doesn't really matter, just like it doesn't matter which car brand you buy when you just need "a car". But people who come from Windows and want to switch, NOT because they find Linux interesting but because Windows has become too much of a pain and Apple is too expensive, they will quickly bounce off something like this.

I don't agree. The mere act of going on a forum to ask which distro to use is in of itself "interested" in Linux. Most people who just would switch without putting much thought into it will just pick the distro they've heard about, which most times will just be Ubuntu or Mint. This choice paralysis only exists when you're deeper than the average.

 

It's like a person who mulls over which android phone to buy when to the average consumer they're all just "Samsung phones."

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

38 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

I don't agree. The mere act of going on a forum to ask which distro to use is in of itself "interested" in Linux. Most people who just would switch without putting much thought into it will just pick the distro they've heard about, which most times will just be Ubuntu or Mint. This choice paralysis only exists when you're deeper than the average.

Well, how do you hear about Linux distributions? Let's just pretend you google "switch to linux"

 

First thing that comes up is reddit, then you have PCMag with a first step of "Choose your Distribution":

https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-make-the-switch-from-windows-to-linux

They briefly describe a few Distros with pro and cons, before recommending Mint. Still they encourage users to try different things. Which normal user tries different OS, most people just want something and then have it work for them.

 

Or you go with the second one: "... Ten things you need to know about"

https://www.zdnet.com/article/thinking-about-switching-to-linux-things-you-need-to-know/

Points 1 ("It's easier than you think") and 2 ("Linux is not just a kernel" WTF is s a kernel now? I hear the average user say) before you come to 3 "Distributions are just different brands of the Linux Operating System" and 4 "There are so many choices".

 

Which normal user wants to check out various versions of an OS or do a few reinstalls of their PC over the weekend? I'd assume the target audience we would talk about would just want something like: "Want to switch to Linux? Download this and follow the instructions", instead they get to chose between distros and desktop environments. Idk, but this really doesn't lend itself to "just download and try it". But maybe I am cynical here.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1 by GarlicDeliverySystem
formatting got mangled

[Brian McKee]

49 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Well, how do you hear about Linux distributions? Let's just pretend you google "switch to linux"

I'm unaware of how the average person hears about it. But in my anecdotal experience, plenty of non techy people I've known have "heard" of Ubuntu. When you instead search for "Switch to Ubuntu" you get more in line of what you'd expect for step by step instructions to accomplish this task without all the fluff.

 

However I do find search kind of funny. It has gotten so bad that when you search "how to install linux" your first result is a Microsoft article. But I don't deny this might be bcause of my own cookies or search history. I don't know what the results would be for someone else.