COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Rolling2405]

On 5/4/2020 at 9:31 AM, Bombastinator said:

The result of this is with one (1) more month of lockdown the thing oils actually be killed and we’d be done instead of limping along for another 6-10 months

If this is true I would be fine with lock down for another month. Where are you getting the idea that it will be over in one more month? From what I'm reading the virus will be here until a vaccine or cure is found.

[Rolling2405]

8 minutes ago, StDragon said:

The state of Texas doesn't own or operate power generation. The Texas Interconnection grid by itself is managed by ERCOT. It was isolated to just Texas for political reasons so as to not have Federal regulatory oversight.

 

Also, I stand corrected. Looks like the state of Florida has something similar going on too.

So difference between PG&E and the one in Texas is it is only in Texas vs PG&E serve multiple states and not just California

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, Rakanoth said:

I believe that in 200 years time, history will look upon this time as an incident where the world overreacted and media hyped up a panic. They will find, after the fact when hindsight is always 2020 (forgive the pun), that this was just another run of the mill virus that we should have treated no differently than the annual flu. As a matter of fact, this virus is one of many coronaviruses that will continue to live on this earth.

SARS and the particularly nasty MERS are rare in comparison to the other 4 which we now know as the common cold. COVID-19 for all of its bluster, we will have to learn to live with and with such a low fatality rate we are now finding, it will likely end up categorized as a cold virus as well.

 

Thus, closing up shop cost as many lives if not more than letting the virus run loose in terms of hunger, abandoning the elderly in retirement homes, and domestic violence, for instance, but also caused undue economic hardship and again strengthened the standing of the rich - directly via hidden tax breaks in the CARES Act and indirectly via turning the labor market from a low unemployment wages rising situation to an employers' market.

 

So, why does this happen? Fear. Humanity is addicted to it. No, I'm not just going to lazily reference scary movies as my only argument but they are an example. We love to sit in the safety of our homes and participate in this stuff, it is a controlled environment where we know that we are safe but can experience the rush of dopamines and adrenaline nonetheless. I began to really notice and think about this phenomenon almost immediately. News stations were coronavirus 24/7. Now, they call it COVID-19 as they are a little more informed but fear sells so death tolls must be publicized. They try to focus on the scariest stats and people sat and watched it for hours. Addicted.

This is not another goddamn "run of the mill" virus.  Please stop repeating a known falsehood in hopes of making it true through sheer force of will; you're not persuading anyone, and virtually the entire forum sees you as a laughing stock.

 

It's not just about deaths.  If you get symptoms, it frequently manifests as the worst fever you'll have in your entire life.  As in draft-your-will-just-in-case worst.  Many people are hospitalized, and there's no guarantee you'll emerge from the hospital without serious permanent damage.  There are recorded instances of relatively young, fit people whose lung capacity is crippled so severely they struggle to make it to their car in the parking lot.

 

Also, if it ultimately feels like the world overreacted... GOOD.  That's what the lockdowns are supposed to do -- to prevent the mass casualty rates you normally associate with major pandemics.  You don't wait until there are millions dead to say "gee, maybe we should do something."  You don't preserve the economy by pretending it's just a flu and hoping that people won't mind if a few hundred die after every music festival.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Monkey Dust said:

I do wonder how much his outbursts damage the Tesla brand?

Don't underestimate Elon. He's shrewd. I think he saw what happened with Amazon and is taking page out of Jeff's book. If anything, he's setting the stage for negotiations. But he also has a chip on his shoulder. If he wants to walk, he will walk. Meaning, he's not all talk and does in fact back it up with action from time to time.

 

He's crazy enough to build his factory on a used oil barge and dock it with whatever state will be his residence. Not saying he would, but he could  

[Bombastinator]

A video I found interesting

 

[ThePointblank]

With Elon Musk, there's part bluster and part seriousness, and often it's really hard to tell which is which at times.

 

I wouldn't read into the fact that Tesla has their factory in California really drive the decision matrix as to if Tesla stays in California; for one, Tesla has shown it is remarkably quick at setting up a new production line at a moment's notice, first as demonstrated when Tesla put up a bunch of pre-fab tent structures near their existing plant to add a parallel production line, then with the Gigafactories in China and now Germany.

 

Also, I would imagine Tesla would really like to have their factory set up the way they like it from the beginning; remember that their current plant in California is an ex-GM car plant, which then became a joint GM-Toyota factory before it shut down. There's a world of difference between how Tesla builds their cars and how the factory's former owners built cars, and I would imagine Tesla would ideally prefer to have a factory setup the way they would like it, rather than having to try to work around the existing factory's layout.

[StDragon]

24 minutes ago, Thomas001 said:

So difference between PG&E and the one in Texas is it is only in Texas vs PG&E serve multiple states and not just California

I thought PG&E only served California per this map. You sure you're not confusing the multiple western states belonging to Western Interconnection grid which is a whole other thing?

[GDRRiley]

6 minutes ago, ThePointblank said:

Tesla has shown it is remarkably quick at setting up a new production line at a moment's notice, first as demonstrated when Tesla put up a bunch of pre-fab tent structures near their existing plant to add a parallel production line, then with the Gigafactories in China and now Germany.

 

Also, I would imagine Tesla would really like to have their factory set up the way they like it from the beginning; remember that their current plant in California is an ex-GM car plant, which then became a joint GM-Toyota factory before it shut down. There's a world of difference between how Tesla builds their cars and how the factory's former owners built cars, and I would imagine Tesla would ideally prefer to have a factory setup the way they would like it, rather than having to try to work around the existing factory's layout.

that is for some stages, but it took them months if not years to get paint booths working right.

 

Not really given tesla isn't as crazy automated as they had first pushed for.

[GDRRiley]

Just now, StDragon said:

I thought PG&E only served California per this map. You sure you're not confusing the multiple western states belonging to Western Interconnection grid which is a whole other thing?

that is a 1990 map.

[GreatnessRD]

Cali won't let them part ways with their gold mine. They'll survive, but it would hurt the pockets. They'll come to some sort of agreement and all will be right with the world.

[StDragon]

9 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

that is a 1990 map.

Ok, so here's one in 2014. Looks like the only difference is the exclusion of Trinity?

 

Anyways, my point is that California is a hostile state to conduct business in. The only reason to do so is for the talent pool and location to ship across the pacific. While the state has higher GDP than many nations (would be the 5th in the world if sovereign). On the other hand, its expense are really high compared with the GPD/Expense ratio of Texas.

 

California has a budgeting problem. Why risk staying a state where THE BIG ONE would force it to clamp down taxes even harder?

[Rolling2405]

4 minutes ago, StDragon said:

I thought PG&E only served California per this map. You sure you're not confusing the multiple western states belonging to Western Interconnection grid which is a whole other thing?

oops yeah you're right I was confused by something I read on Wikipedia.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pg%26E+areas+served&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS888US888&oq=pg%26E+areas+served&aqs=chrome..69i57.11831j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Thought it meant that it also served Oregon, Nevada and Arizona when I first read it. 

[Commodus]

19 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

A video I found interesting

 

Sciencephobes like Raka need to watch this over and over again.  The reason things aren't as dire as predicted is because those earlier predictions helped shape the response.  If we come out of this wondering why deaths didn't reach apocalyptic levels, that means our response worked, not that we should have loosened up.

[SenKa]

5 hours ago, Thomas001 said:

They could move with the company

Not everybody can afford to hop ship, up and go to another state. What if you have kids in school? Are they supposed to be cool with leaving out of nowhere?

[Rolling2405]

2 minutes ago, SenKa said:

Not everybody can afford to hop ship, up and go to another state. What if you have kids in school? Are they supposed to be cool with leaving out of nowhere?

True didn't think about that

[niofalpha]

It's a bluff, literally no one actually thinks this is going to happen lmao

[ThePointblank]

18 minutes ago, SenKa said:

Not everybody can afford to hop ship, up and go to another state. What if you have kids in school? Are they supposed to be cool with leaving out of nowhere?

Depends. Some companies assist with a relocation, with helping to covering expenses, find schooling for kids, and assisting with job searches for the spouse. It would depend on level of seniority and position within the company, with the more important and senior the person is, the more resources that are made available.

 

6 minutes ago, niofalpha said:

It's a bluff, literally no one actually thinks this is going to happen lmao

Would not bet on it with Elon Musk. He's pretty unpredictable, and there's been many instances where he says he's going to do something, everyone dismisses him for it, and he goes and does it anyways.

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Sciencephobes like Raka need to watch this over and over again.

You can lead a horse to water, but you  need a block and tackle to drown the fucker.

 

 

Basically you can't educate people who don't want to be educated.  The world is getting way too complicated and with the amount of bad information out there  the problem only gets worse.  Every day science gets more and more technical, it takes into account significantly more data points, it makes thousands  more allowances with every study and it has to cope with the extreme onslaught of people advocating that science is just a paid off lobby group.  When faced with the fact people need a 4 year uni degree just to start understanding the scientific process and the statistics that go with it,  it is no wonder we have so much trouble explaining even simply concepts to those who don't want to hear it.

 

The other problem is with many of these things being so complex, that by the time you simplify them to the point most people can begin to understand them, those people then think they fully understand it and so dismiss them on over simplistic and often inaccurate assumptions.  

 

I see this a lot in this thread.  False equivalency arguments, appeal to authority arguments and the most misunderstood argument,  the strawman argument. 

 

 

[Big Nav]

On 3/21/2020 at 8:57 AM, captain_to_fire said:

I’m gonna copy and paste what I’ve written on an earlier thread that got locked: 

 

Just a PSA to everyone, now is not the time to brag how immune you are. You are risking the lives of many people so please stay at home, and if you really need to buy necessities like food or medication, don’t bring your entire family outside just to buy those. Don’t be that asshole who will shout at a cop for politely asking you to return home because you brought three other family members in your car. You’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem!
 

You can do stuff at home like play with your dog, watch that Netflix series (sorry 480p Netflix in Europe, we in Asia still get 1080p and 4K), read those books, learn how to cook, workout using your body weight, whatever to take your stress away. 
 

Also right now is not the time to be disgusting because so wash your hands for 20 seconds before rinsing and for the love of god, take a bath everyday regardless of your weather condition. No evidence shows that antimicrobial soaps are more effective than regular bath soaps so it doesn’t matter what brand.

 

How will the population ever build up an immunity if you hide from the virus and over clean everything? Might sound good at first but in reality your making your immune system weaker. Ever notice how someone who always runs to the doctor at the 1st sign of the sniffles is always sick, and the person who doesn't rarely is. It's because our bodies are capable of defending it self, the the catch it you need to be exposed to something before your body can figure out how to counteract it.

[Bombastinator]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you  need a block and tackle to drown the fucker.

 

 

Basically you can't educate people who don't want to be educated.  The world is getting way too complicated and with the amount of bad information out there  the problem only gets worse.  Every day science gets more and more technical, it takes into account significantly more data points, it makes thousands  more allowances with every study and it has to cope with the extreme onslaught of people advocating that science is just a paid off lobby group.  When faced with the fact people need a 4 year uni degree just to start understanding the scientific process and the statistics that go with it,  it is no wonder we have so much trouble explaining even simply concepts to those who don't want to hear it.

 

The other problem is with many of these things being so complex, that by the time you simplify them to the point most people can begin to understand them, those people then think they fully understand it and so dismiss them on over simplistic and often inaccurate assumptions.  

 

I see this a lot in this thread.  False equivalency arguments, appeal to authority arguments and the most misunderstood argument,  the strawman argument. 

 

 

To make a somewhat weak defense, a crying baby may not know very much but it doesn’t mean they don’t have a point.  The lockdown is causing severe pain.  Sure the logic is fail and the arguments are thinly veiled self agrandized self interest, but that doesn’t mean the pain isn’t real. Accommodations of some kind do need to be worked out.  Just because the whole “let’s just ignore it” concept is stupid doesn’t invalidate the cause it champions.  A way to save as many of these livelihoods as possible needs to be found.  They may be less important than the lives of the people who depend on those livelihoods but they’re not valueless. 

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

To make a somewhat weak defense, a crying baby may not know very much but it doesn’t mean they don’t have a point.  The lockdown is causing severe pain.  Sure the logic is fail and the arguments are thinly veiled self agrandized self interest, but that doesn’t mean the pain isn’t real. Accommodations of some kind do need to be worked out.  Just because the whole “let’s just ignore it” concept is stupid doesn’t invalidate the cause it champions.  A way to save as many of these livelihoods as possible needs to be found.  They may be less important than the lives of the people who depend on those livelihoods but they’re not valueless. 

OF course.  My post is just about the emotional bias in peoples arguments. It prevents them from being critical about the science and whats going on.  I in no way blame people for wanting it to be over. I fully sympathise with that, I mean we are all in the same boat in many ways.

 

I have said before if you have to choose between going out and working or starving then go out and work or get food.  I believe (especially in the US) that if you challenged any fine you received  in a court on the grounds that you had no choice, the laws of the land should not prevent you from access to the basics of living, that anything fine or charge would be overturned almost without question under the 14th amendmnt.

[justpoet]

5 hours ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I don't think he'll move the HQ, but I think the company would pay a lot less in taxes if it moved to Texas for example, and I'm sure people over there would appreciate those jobs.

Elon is crazy enough to move.  Other states would be happy to court the business, and the tax revenue and jobs it would create.

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

OF course.  My post is just about the emotional bias in peoples arguments. It prevents them from being critical about the science and whats going on.  I in no way blame people for wanting it to be over. I fully sympathise with that, I mean we are all in the same boat in many ways.

 

I have said before if you have to choose between going out and working or starving then go out and work or get food.  I believe (especially in the US) that if you challenged any fine you received  in a court on the grounds that you had no choice, the laws of the land should not prevent you from access to the basics of living, that anything fine or charge would be overturned almost without question under the 14th amendmnt.

Oh no.  The court is generally fine with letting people starve.  There are often vulture people hanging out in the back of the court room waiting till the truly desperate show up so they can take advantage of them.  The US has a gigantic problem with its federal executive branch at the moment and can’t get aid to the people who need it.  Something has to get done or they’ll die waiting for the administration to get its thumb out. 

[handymanshandle]

Honestly I'd love to see Tesla leave California for the luls

 

I mean seriously, GM could've kept Fremont open after the NUMMI program ended with Toyota but likely they had a financial incentive to not stay in California for some pretty obvious reasons.

It's possible to keep people working and keep their chances of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 virus minimal

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Oh no.  The court is generally fine with letting people starve.  There are often vulture people hanging out in the back of the court room waiting till the truly desperate show up so they can take advantage of them.  The US has a gigantic problem with its federal executive branch at the moment and can’t get aid to the people who need it.  Something has to get done or they’ll die waiting for the administration to get its thumb out. 

Might be time for another civil war or mass uprising.  Maybe this time everyone should aim for sustained communal goals rather than individual civil rights.