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Microsoft to "maybe" withhold driver and security updates from "unsupported" Windows 11 installs

gjsman
By gjsman
in Tech News
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Summary

Remember 24 hours ago, when Microsoft said they would allow power users to install Windows 11 in an unsupported configuration from the ISO, allowing an "unsupported" install from 7th Gen Intel or older or 1st Gen Ryzen or older? Well, Microsoft has now come out today and said that if you install Windows 11 in an unsupported configuration, they reserve the right to withhold driver and security updates from your device. 

 

Quotes

Quote

We’re not sure why the company didn’t mention it in our original briefing, but Microsoft has since told The Verge that unsupported PCs won’t be entitled to receive Windows Updates, and that even security and driver updates may be withheld. 

 

My thoughts

Microsoft is officially the worst Fortune 500 company, ever, at communications.

 

Sources

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/28/22646035/microsoft-windows-11-iso-workaround-no-update-guarantee

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Posted

Flopping harder than windows 8 god damn

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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i said this in the CPU windows 11 tech news thread and i'll say it again

Quote

i'm sticking with enterprise ltsc untill 2029 then i might move to linux.

the grass really be looking greener over there as of recent.

the grass is so green it's rivaling the nvidia logo.

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7 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Flopping harder than windows 8 god damn

harder then vista, it's like stupid hardware requirements AREN'T a good thing!

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1 minute ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

i said this in the CPU windows 11 tech news thread and i'll say it again

the grass is so green it's rivaling the nvidia logo.

it's not that the grass is greener on the other side, it's that we're standing on a gravel road.

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Just now, manikyath said:

it's not that the grass is greener on the other side, it's that we're standing on a gravel road.

bro why is your window smashed? oh wait never mind.

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From what I have seen, I doubt it will flop, but I think it will get market share slower than Windows 10 did.

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42 minutes ago, gjsman said:

 

 

My thoughts

Microsoft is officially the worst Fortune 500 company, ever, at communications.

 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Microsoft updates it's compilers to explicitly compile code for 8th gen Intel CPU feature sets (minus some feature code that might be accelerated by AVX512/VNNI or GNA 2.0), that could mean that some drivers might only be signed if they utilize the (presumably encryption) instructions.

 

However let's think a little bit more forward, let's say, Windows 11 SP2, or so, By this point Windows 11 installations will be 3 years old, and anyone running a 7th gen cpu still at this point had ample time to upgrade (7 years at least.) At this point Microsoft might jettison any support for 6th/7th gen cpu's, maybe even 32-bit support itself (requiring an optional containerized install.) 

 

Like, I wouldn't be happy prematurely replacing a desktop or laptop that had a 6th or 7th gen cpu in it just to install Windows 11, but I also don't see any urgent need to upgrade to 11. What exactly does 11 offer right now that makes upgrading worth the effort? It seems like Microsoft only ever justifies the version bump when they change some core driver model, and then get's stuck having to maintain a dozen forks of the OS code. (32-bit, 64-bit, home/pro/enterprise/server) when they really should only have one code base.

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1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Microsoft updates it's compilers to explicitly compile code for 8th gen Intel CPU feature sets

But does it have any meaningful impact on anything? Does it get used outside of niche applications? :old-eyeroll: They could just disable features based on instruction set quite easily, its not atomic physics. Of course if you are a moron, and wrote code that is hard coded all the way without any regard to modularization then that is going to be result in a case like this....

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This does make sense, since they are not supporting those platforms it is very possible that down the road they make updates that make it even less stable (or even unable to boot) on cpus without given features that they expect to be present. Likely this really means that MS QA team will not be testing on un-supported devices so will no sign off on these updates. 

 

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6 hours ago, manikyath said:

driver updates -- debatable.

security updates -- unacceptable.

 

i have nothing more to add than that.

If they tell you from the start they are not supporting your hardware then that means they not testing internally not requiring their devs to consider the feature set of your hardware.

  It makes even more sense that some sec updates might be missed, the last thing you want is a security update to be delayed so that it can be bakcported somehow (and QA tested) for all the unsupported devices. Remember MS make their money from companies that license windows and pay an subscription for this, these companies will not be used un-supported hardware why would MS screw over paying customers so that people on unsupported hardware (who might have never paid them anything) get updates.

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6 hours ago, Kisai said:

What exactly does 11 offer right now that makes upgrading worth the effort?

Current known launch features?

let’s see, direct storage, which will come to windows 10, but will be bad, and 

android emulaton, something that almost every toutchscreen laptop owner will love .

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That's just stupid. Microsoft already shot themselves in one foot by artificially forcing people to upgrade hardware. Now they just shot themselves to the other foot. Unless they are a centipede, they shot their both legs and Windows 11 isn't even out yet... They must be idiots.

 

With Valve going big on Linux gaming (due to their handheld console), I think Linux finally has a shot at competing with Windows, even if it doesn't dethrone it. Steam is worlds largest gaming platform and Valve using Arch Linux for their portable gaming console means they'll invest hugely into making them work, possibly even make developers compile Linux native versions of games. This will have to bring at least AMD on board since it's their HW inside to release better Linux support. I've been skeptical for all the Linux claims through last 20 years, but with Microsoft doing all this dumb stuff to Valve going Linux and many distros actually being user friendly as is, it's possibility I actually believe in.

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I don't know if Microsoft could sabotage Windows 11 before it's release any harder if they tried.

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I think there is a miss understanding by someone in the line.

I think what is being said is that there might be no version updates available of Win11 down the line. they are just keeping that door open of possibilities.

 

Meaning you'll get this version of Win11, maybe next one in 2022, but maybe not 2023... Might need to switch back to Win10. all MS is saying, is that they won't promise it will work. If they want to implement a new instruction that some of the unsupported CPUs don't support, and you happen to have this CPU that can't run it, then you are on your own, for example. Microsoft will only test and support the supported list of CPUs, and consider them only as they develop further Win11.

 

Not having security update doesn't make any sense. Microsoft has been fighting this war where users refused to get them since ages, leaving a mass number of systems vulnerable, and sometimes used in attacks

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15 minutes ago, Sampsy said:

One of the biggest problems with vista wasn't the os itself. It was that OEMs ignored Microsoft's hardware recommendations in an attempt to save a buck and sold systems that couldn't handle it. That lead to lots of users having a bad experience and Microsoft / Vista getting the blame

Sort of, Vista's listed hardware recommendations were very low, too low for proper usability acceptance. They were based on what is required to be functional and less so usable.

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8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

But does it have any meaningful impact on anything? Does it get used outside of niche applications? :old-eyeroll: They could just disable features based on instruction set quite easily, its not atomic physics. Of course if you are a moron, and wrote code that is hard coded all the way without any regard to modularization then that is going to be result in a case like this....

Well that depends on a whole lot of things:

  • Usability acceptance: Does software emulation meet the usability testing requirements to be deemed acceptable
  • Stability: Does the software emulation meet the stability necessary. As much as one may want to say well if not then that is a software and coding issue it's really not that simplistic.

At no point can you code yourself around issues such as these, you can try but you could just be wasting your time and everyone else's too. Way back when I was first trying out PCSX2 PS2 emulator you had many different options for graphics plugins, the most popular one had builds for SSE2, SSE3 and SSE4 (later just SSE2, SSE4 and AVX2). SSE2 performance on CPUs with SSE4 was simply too low to be usable, you could not play games acceptably (some yes but overall no). The SSE2 also had a lot more graphics glitches issues as well. If it's as simple as you make out then why could the exact same developers not correct the issues with the SSE2 build but could for SSE3 and above?

 

Supporting everything while may be possible is it actually feasible and worthwhile resource expenditure to do so. This is a shared issue, blaming just Microsoft just doesn't cut it. Both Intel and AMD are just as much apart of this, AMD for not including what was a commonly supported instruction/feature at the time and Intel for playing fast and loose with microcode instruction/feature disabling within the same product generation so you couldn't guarantee broad support.

 

Microsoft isn't building their latest operating systems around a target oldest CPU generation, they are looking forward to what they think might solve current issues or bring in new features. As part of that you'll go through the development of these things and conclude particular instruction sets are a necessity for whatever reasoning, then you look backwards on CPUs to see what the support for it looks like. At that point you could choose that there isn't enough in market hardware support and thus target a release of that feature later, what Microsoft now calls Feature Updates or what was called Service Packs.

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5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sort of, Vista's listed hardware recommendations were very low, too low for proper usability acceptance. They were based on what is required to be functional and less so usable.

If I remember correctly, Microsoft dropped those specs down because OEMs where crying, and threatening Microsoft.

 

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5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

If I remember correctly, Microsoft dropped those specs down because OEMs where crying, and threatening Microsoft.

 

It's weird they aren't doing it now. Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

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4 hours ago, hishnash said:

If they tell you from the start they are not supporting your hardware then that means they not testing internally not requiring their devs to consider the feature set of your hardware.

  It makes even more sense that some sec updates might be missed, the last thing you want is a security update to be delayed so that it can be bakcported somehow (and QA tested) for all the unsupported devices. Remember MS make their money from companies that license windows and pay an subscription for this, these companies will not be used un-supported hardware why would MS screw over paying customers so that people on unsupported hardware (who might have never paid them anything) get updates.

but a security update isnt device-specific. there's nothing to backport.

i can install windows 10 on a core2quad, and get every security update they release. it's quite difficult to believe that a security update for win11 would suddenly be so device-specific that ryzen 2 can get the update, but ryzen 1 cant.

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4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It's weird they aren't doing it now. Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

This almost exclusively effects DIY market, certainly the most. Windows 10 was the first time ever an actually large amount of OEM/Pre-Build computers had their operating systems upgraded. And even then I don't think that was a good idea anyway. With the way the majority of computers are spec'd and sold pain and suffering is the most likely outcome not a good user experience or a smooth upgrade, as the whole Windows 10 upgrade situation proved.

 

This will have next to no affect on PC sales.

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15 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's weird they aren't doing it now. Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

Since Vista, and Microsoft noticed its grave mistake in trusting OEMs in delivering a decent/good experience to users. Microsoft has been reworking is licensing with OEMs and has been having more tight control on the requirements. Now you have this details doc that Microsoft builds up with plenty of details that OEMs must follow. The one that will not, won't be able to sale a system with the latest Windows that doesn't comply or exceed the requirements. No one will buy a system with an old version of Windows (beside specific people)

 

I think Microsoft noticed that OEM threats are meaningless in the end. And to add pressure, Microsoft has its Surface line systems. This ensured that OEMs "premium" systems, be actually premium, and not overpriced plastic ewaste.

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6 minutes ago, manikyath said:

but a security update isnt device-specific. there's nothing to backport.

i can install windows 10 on a core2quad, and get every security update they release. it's quite difficult to believe that a security update for win11 would suddenly be so device-specific that ryzen 2 can get the update, but ryzen 1 cant.

Largely yes, Microsoft did release security update that did the Intel Microcode update for Spectre/Meltdown. I think this would be the only time it would have applied.

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