Microsoft to "maybe" withhold driver and security updates from "unsupported" Windows 11 installs

[manikyath]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Largely yes, Microsoft did release security update that did the Intel Microcode update for Spectre/Meltdown. I think this would be the only time it would have applied.

i'd consider that a 'driver' in a sense.. intel microcode updates are in a bit of a weird space, especially around spectre/meltdown.

[jagdtigger]

38 minutes ago, leadeater said:

At no point can you code yourself around issues such as these

Good thing i wrote disable...

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Good thing i wrote disable...

So disable the entire OS? Ya nah, don't just skip over the point without actually considering what you are actually saying.

 

This is a mandatory included feature of Windows 11, anything that is that there is no "disable".

 

Edit:

My tyres on my car are bald so I'm just going to disable the wheels feature of my car 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It's weird they aren't doing it now. Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

They aren't doing it now because there is nothing to demand,  nearly every new system from all the majors meets minimum requirement.   Hell, even the A$600 (US$350 equivalent) Acer I just bought my son comes with a free windows 11 upgrade when it becomes available.  

[RejZoR]

47 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They aren't doing it now because there is nothing to demand,  nearly every new system from all the majors meets minimum requirement.   Hell, even the A$600 (US$350 equivalent) Acer I just bought my son comes with a free windows 11 upgrade when it becomes available.  

Yeah, and what about 80% of users who don't intend to replace their 3-4 years old systems that are still very much capable? I mean, I have a laptop with Ryzen 2500U, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Runs Win10 with ease and should run Win11 just the same easily. Supported? Nope. Buy new laptop. So I could use latest OS...

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

Yeah, and what about 80% of users who don't intend to replace their 3-4 years old systems that are still very much capable? I mean, I have a laptop with Ryzen 2500U, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Runs Win10 with ease and should run Win11 just the same easily. Supported? Nope. Buy new laptop. So I could use latest OS...

Or do a clean install?

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

Yeah, and what about 80% of users who don't intend to replace their 3-4 years old systems that are still very much capable? I mean, I have a laptop with Ryzen 2500U, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Runs Win10 with ease and should run Win11 just the same easily. Supported? Nope. Buy new laptop. So I could use latest OS...

What has existing system owners got to do with the pointlessness of manufacturers putting pressure on MS to change the system requirements?

[Arika]

I think people forget how old W10 is

 

Windows 7 was supported for 10 years

Windows 10 will be supported for 10 years

MacOS versions are supported for 7 years + 3 years of security updates. (for those playing along at home, that's 10 years)

 

So it seems pretty industry standard

 

With how fast technology has been progressing, that fact that there is really only a 2 year hardware release cycle between release of the new OS and the oldest supported hardware is actually pretty good for an OS that has to support an infinite number of hardware combinations

Given that i would say most (normal) people (not people from this forum) buy a new PC every 4-6 years, the impact won't be as large as people are trying to make it out to be.

Speaking of people on this forum, they are the type of people to most likely upgrade every hardware generation or two.

 

 

and just for shits and giggles for myself because it comes up in every other thread and want people to see how dumb the argument is: Good thing Microsoft can do what ever they like with their own platform RIGHT??!

 

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

 

 

Windows 10 end of life date: October 2025

Oldest supported CPU on W11 release date: October 2017.

 

So by the time Oct 2025 rolls around where the "push people into buying new hardware" actually becomes relevant, the oldest supported hardware will be 8 years old.

They have to drop support for W10 eventually. i would say 10 years is more than enough time to support an OS and a 4 year EOL announcement time frame is pretty generous.

  

33 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Yeah, and what about 80% of users who don't intend to replace their 3-4 years old systems that are still very much capable? I mean, I have a laptop with Ryzen 2500U, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Runs Win10 with ease and should run Win11 just the same easily. Supported? Nope. Buy new laptop. So I could use latest OS...

Windows 10 end of life date: October 2025

So those 3-4 year old systems will be 7-8 years old when support ACTUALLY ends.

 

Let me know in Oct 2025 is you're still using that Ryzen 2500u laptop.

[RejZoR]

@Arika S

I don't use old OS versions when there is new one out. I never have in 22 years of building and maintaining my own systems. Even when Windows 2000 was mostly for corporate use and users were expected to continue using Windows 98, I was on Windows 2000 already as well and soon went with Windows XP and switched to Vista the moment it was out. Only OS I ever skipped was WindowsMe and even that because I went to Win2000 directly during that period.

 

Which makes the 7-10 years of support of one particular OS entirely irrelevant data. I was never even sitting on outdated quarterly updates within same year of Windows 10 and you expect me to now use Windows 10 while Windows 11 is out? Um, nope. Which is why this makes it so stupid. And this is especially true for the touch device that I have which is low end and old, but would benefit hugely from better touch support and features that don't give a shit entirely for CPU feature sets and instructions. But if I can't stick it on that device it's worthless update.

[pythonmegapixel]

I'm genuinely starting to think that the only explanation for Microsoft's actions is some secret agreement with OEMs. "If you help us make using our software the only easy option, we'll make buying new hardware the only easy option" kind of thing.

 

I despair that people just accept this. But then, for some (possibly most) people there is no alternative.

[mr moose]

25 minutes ago, Arika S said:

and just for shits and giggles for myself because it comes up in every other thread and want people to see how dumb the argument is: Good thing Microsoft can do what ever they like with their own platform RIGHT??!

 

 

Oh no, that argument only applies to apple, google and few game devs. where it means we can pretend it actually makes sense.

 

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

 

I don't use old OS versions when there is new one out. I never have in 22 years of building and maintaining my own systems.

 

Which puts you the extreme minority,  MS is not going to waste resources (consequently increasing the cost of products/services for the rest of us) making an optional OS work on older hardware just to please the handful of people in your position.  And that of course is assuming you can't actually install it. because it is more likely than not you will be able to.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And that of course is assuming you can't actually install it. because it is more likely than not you will be able to.

Are you implying that all the news reporting on Windows 11 is mostly just click baiting preying on existing displeasure sentiments towards Microsoft and entirely ignores existing precedent over how Microsoft supports Windows and uses quite often very questionable interpretations of what Microsoft said and further compounding the issues by not providing the direct quotes of what was actually said.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Are you implying that all the news reporting on Windows 11 is mostly just click baiting preying on existing displeasure sentiments towards Microsoft and entirely ignores existing precedent over how Microsoft supports Windows and uses quite often very questionable interpretations of what Microsoft said and further compounding the issues by not providing the direct quotes of what was actually said.

Are you implying the media prey on consumer gullibility to sell their products?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RejZoR]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Oh no, that argument only applies to apple, google and few game devs. where it means we can pretend it actually makes sense.

 

Which puts you the extreme minority,  MS is not going to waste resources (consequently increasing the cost of products/services for the rest of us) making an optional OS work on older hardware just to please the handful of people in your position.  And that of course is assuming you can't actually install it. because it is more likely than not you will be able to.

It's because of people who still sit on Windows 7 and even Windows XP that shit is so bad on Windows. But what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11 is the extreme in other direction which makes no sense either.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It's because of people who still sit on Windows 7 and even Windows XP that shit is so bad on Windows. But what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11 is the extreme in other direction which makes no sense either.

What Microsoft is doing isn't going to make people migrate to new versions of Windows any sooner, that's just not a thing. I didn't happen before and it's not going to now. Those that choose to stick with what they have for any number of reasons are likely to choose to do the same.

[Arika]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Those that choose to stick with what they have for any number of reasons are likely to choose to do the same.

I was say for the vast majority of people who will stay on windows 10, is because they don't know that windows 11 exists. if they don't get a popup saying "you can upgrade to windows 11" for the people who don't meet the hardware requirement then they will be none the wiser anyway.

 

If i asked my mother "are you going to upgrade to windows 11?" she should have no idea what i'm talking about, I don't even think she knows she's on windows 10, it's just "I use chrome".

[wamred]

That doesn’t surprise me unfortunately. But it still doesn’t make any sense for them to do that. 

[HenrySalayne]

Neat! I could have really used this feature a few years ago when Windows 10 was automatically installing the wrong driver again and again and again and again and again ...

 

I don't understand the outcry. It sounds like Microsoft simply didn't want to create false hope. It's understandable some features might not be available if your PC doesn't meet the specifications (like a TPM for example). We have to wait and see.

[GoodBytes]

3 hours ago, Arika S said:

I was say for the vast majority of people who will stay on windows 10, is because they don't know that windows 11 exists. if they don't get a popup saying "you can upgrade to windows 11" for the people who don't meet the hardware requirement then they will be none the wiser anyway.

Actually, no. The general mentality of the average user is "If it works, I will not update or change anything until I buy a new system".

We have the same conversation here at times, with BIOS/UEFI updates, and driver updates (oh it works, I don't want to touch anything and risk having a problem. If I have problem, and I exhausted all my opinion, THEN I'll consider maybe upgrading the driver (or UEFI/BIOS if it is related to that), or just ignore the game/software until I get a new system).

This is also why many users, including enthusiast who are setting up a PC to someone, were disabling Windows Update. Oh, it works, it has been tested, why upgrade?

 

Therefore, we have forced updates. Microsoft progressively pushed people to update, and we had to end up to this point we have now. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Arika S said:

If i asked my mother "are you going to upgrade to windows 11?" she should have no idea what i'm talking about, I don't even think she knows she's on windows 10, it's just "I use chrome".

True, but most people won't regardless. They will get it with their new PC. They know that the new PC would be specifically tested/designed for Windows 11. They'll have official support from the OEM (which they get from each hardware manufacturers).

 

Remember that Microsoft is being attacked by Apple and Google (Chromebooks) and its users, about how Windows is insecure and unstable. I mean, BSOD doesn't exists in Microsoft terminology. It's Kernel Panic. BSOD is a term we created and also turned into a meme. Microsoft aims that Windows 11, is a reliable, responsible, and secure OS, and it can only do that with supported by manufactures. The more I read articles on Windows 11 working on non-supported CPU based on press talk that they just had, the more I see that the only reason the powerful Zen 1 chip from AMD is being excluded, those who the performance impact from lacking the hardware accelerated security feature would be fats enough to hide the performance impact, is really because AMD refused to support Windows 11 for those chips. It is still a developing story, so I don't quote me on this, but it makes sense. Microsoft doesn't want a Vista story all over again. 

 

What Microsoft seem to hope is that us, enthusiasts, who really want to get Win11 despite unsupported hardware would be competent enough to know "Oh yea, my compile/render time is reduced... it's not Win11 issue, it's my hardware", and if you have a BSODs or crashes or strange issues, then it is a driver issue, instead of "Win11 sucks". Microsoft also seem to hope that we won't install it in masses on people who we support with incompatible system, at least until 2025. 

[Vishera]

Someone in Microsoft has a vision of how Windows should be,and they really really want to see that vision come true.

As ignorant as it may be - they don't want to compromise on the security part of that vision.

 

Ever since Windows 8 Microsoft pretty much went the wrong direction.

 

Windows as a service is pretty much anti-consumer and bad for stability.

[RejZoR]

Installed Manjaro again on my Ryzen 2500U laptop out of anger. Hm, this thing works nice now despite "problematic" Realtek WLAN. Installed and all works smoothly. Looks like this laptop will just remain this way. Gotta try on the netbook. Touch was the only problematic thing there with screen rotation. If that works too I'll migrate that to Manjaro too.

[Vishera]

4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Installed Manjaro again on my Ryzen 2500U laptop out of anger. Hm, this thing works nice now despite "problematic" Realtek WLAN. Installed and all works smoothly. Looks like this laptop will just remain this way. Gotta try on the netbook. Touch was the only problematic thing there with screen rotation. If that works too I'll migrate that to Manjaro too.

Microsoft are driving a lot of people away from Windows 10 and 11,

And if you look at the Steam hardware survey - Windows 7 and Linux market share go up.and Windows 10 goes down.

[GoodBytes]

47 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Someone in Microsoft has a vision of how Windows should be,and they really really want to see that vision come true.

As ignorant as it may be - they don't want to compromise on the security part of that vision.

 

Ever since Windows 8 Microsoft pretty much went the wrong direction.

 

Windows as a service is pretty much anti-consumer and bad for stability.

That someone is Panos Panay.

 

He led the Surface team, turning this side project from Microsoft into this massive multi-billion-dollar success. Then had Microsoft group Windows and the Hardware team together as he believed that they should work together in order to be able to deliver a better experience to users.  He also started a good relationship with the Gaming division (XBox) with Surface team also redesign the XBox One, passing from this ugly ass VHS / alarm clock device to the modern looking system that we got after, which started a great relationship between both teams, which has helped boost XBox One sale, and share knowledge between teams (which helped shape the back-end of the new App Store that Windows 11 has, (coming to WIn10 apparently))

 

Under the Windows + Hardware team, he cleaned up the mess that the Windows was in (duplicated apps for no reason, no longer innovating, lack of commitment... rebranching into different OSs instead of consolidating things (Surface Hub OS, Windows 10X, Windows 10, etc). probably turning a discouraged team into what we have now/going to have: Windows 11). Apparently, Windows 11 was built within a year during the pandemic. So really an incredible feat, especially that a lot of front-end GUI was just recoded from scratch (task bar, start menu, Settings panel), and some apps (Store, Calculator, Chat (MS Teams for consumers, which probably be for business in the future, as this new version lacks features from the business one, that are all marked as coming), and maybe others (I hear the Mail and Calendar app would be scraped for a PWA version of Outlook web which is in the works). And the other apps are being updated, Alarm clock with focus assist features with Spotify integration, MS Paint will have a new look as well, and more.

 

We also know that Windows 11 look & feel isn't done once Windows 11 will be released. Part 2 will be coming with the following version (a year after Windows 11 will be released) Maybe now they'll tackle Task Manager, and all the other less used panels by the masses, and hopefully get the last reminder options from the Control Panel to the Settings panel, and bring the missing functionality of the Task Bar from this newly recoded one.

 

He recently got promoted as Executive Vice President who will be directly advising Satya Nadell who is the CEO of Microsoft. Everything he touch seems to be a success (beside Surface Duo... maybe in a few iterations... in any case, can't win them all), so why not? Good for him. 

 

In my book, Windows 11 direction (with Windows 10 being supported until 2025) is the right thing to do. And people here are over exaggerating the impact of the unsupported CPUs (by the way, I am not saying this as I am not affected. I am the most affected person on this forum, probably). People aren't going to throw their system at the bin the day Win11 will be released and buy a new one. Windows isn't a selling factor to consumers.

[PocketNerd]

20 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

-snip-

Based on what I've experienced with the limited tech-demo I have. I'm looking forward to see more of Windows 11. Hopefully they'll let me install a fresh copy instead of having to do an upgrade first.

[Middcore]

It is a total mystery to me what Microsoft is hoping to accomplish with all of this.

 

Never seen anybody create so much FUD about their own product.