Microsoft to "maybe" withhold driver and security updates from "unsupported" Windows 11 installs

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Vishera said:

Microsoft are driving a lot of people away from Windows 10 and 11,

And if you look at the Steam hardware survey - Windows 7 and Linux market share go up.and Windows 10 goes down.

You know that the survey is done on a group of users which differs between each month. It is not a full 100% user usage. Each month it fluctuates.

If users selected have their telemetry turned off of Steam, they don't contribute to the survey and isn't being replaced by someone else. 

[hishnash]

9 hours ago, manikyath said:

it's quite difficult to believe that a security update for win11 would suddenly be so device-specific that ryzen 2 can get the update, but ryzen 1 cant.

It is quite possible that there could be sec updates that depend on cpu instructions not present in un-support hardware. These fixes might opt to make use of the newer memory protection modes that are present on the supported chips.  Deploying that that update to unsupported hardware might well result in the machines not booting. 

[pythonmegapixel]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

You know that the survey is done on SOME users each month. It is not a full 100% user usage. Each month it fluctuates.

If users selected have their telemetry turned off of Steam, they don't contribute to the survey and isn't being replaced by someone else. 

I'd wager people with Steam telemetry off are more likely to be the people concerned enough about Microsoft to switch to Linux or use an older version

[GoodBytes]

Just now, pythonmegapixel said:

I'd wager people with Steam telemetry off are more likely to be the people concerned enough about Microsoft to switch to Linux or use an older version

So then you already have it, that 1%.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, Vishera said:

Microsoft are driving a lot of people away from Windows 10 and 11,

 

And i don't think they really care. For them the future is not windows (well not windows on your compute) the future is Azure (they will very happily sell you windows machines, servers and desktops in azure).  But one off license fees... yer that is just a legacy product they maintain for now but really they are pushing companies hard to move everything to azure, with the new windows 365 they are also trying to move companies into that as well (there are some good sec benefits from using VM images).  

I think MS might well be happy to concede the desktop/laptop OS market to linux/macOS long term (not for a few years but in 10 years time i do not expect them to be thrilled about providing support for desktops). 

[jagdtigger]

12 hours ago, leadeater said:

So disable the entire OS?

Umm no? It was proven that it can run on older HW. Nothging groundbreaking happened in terms of CPU instructions so no big surprise..... (Dont even start with the security excuse, they cant even fix a efing printing spooler for months now....)

[manikyath]

4 hours ago, hishnash said:

It is quite possible that there could be sec updates that depend on cpu instructions not present in un-support hardware. These fixes might opt to make use of the newer memory protection modes that are present on the supported chips.  Deploying that that update to unsupported hardware might well result in the machines not booting. 

the chance that a random security update suddenly causes a dependency on some odd instruction magically only present in intel 7th gen and up *and* ryzen 2 and up... is basicly zero.

 

feature updates yes, security updates no.

 

security updates fix shit like a backdoor in the print spooler, they dont suddenly implement new hardware security measures.

 

there is no circumstances where it makes sense to lock specificly security updates to a certain platform, but not lock other types of updates (e.g. the monthly incrementals and feature updates.)

 

by the information provided, i can only conclude this is a decision in poor taste.

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's because of people who still sit on Windows 7 and even Windows XP that shit is so bad on Windows. But what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11 is the extreme in other direction which makes no sense either.

I don't think that is true at all,  MS no longer have to put any effort into windows 7, so regardless of who uses it still, it does not consume more resources like tailoring future OS's for minority user base hardware would.   

[hishnash]

17 minutes ago, manikyath said:

there is no circumstances where it makes sense to lock specificly security updates to a certain platform, but not lock other types of updates (e.g. the monthly incrementals and feature updates.)

 

No given that there are multiple security features of these new chips, sure a prints spoiler fix might not use these but something like a fix in the hypervisor framework or secure boot implementation, PCI IMMU etc might well depend on cpu features.

MS did not say all sec updates would not ship they just said that they will not hold of doing an update if it is not compatible. This is a warning bascule meaning their QA teams are not going to be doing QA enthuse old hardware and their dev teams are not going to bother about it either so if the quickest best solution makes use of new instructions they will use it and they should. 

[jagdtigger]

16 minutes ago, hishnash said:

fix in the hypervisor framework or secure boot implementation, PCI IMMU etc might well depend on cpu features.

None of which is needed for the OS to functions, they could say that those wont work on older CPU's. Thats a different topic. Here we have an OS which is perfectly capable of running on older HW and a <insert profanity> company imposing artificial limitations....

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Umm no? It was proven that it can run on older HW. Nothging groundbreaking happened in terms of CPU instructions so no big surprise..... (Dont even start with the security excuse, they cant even fix a efing printing spooler for months now....)

Yes sure it can run, doesn't mean that it HAS passed Microsoft's user acceptability testing or stability testing. We're talking about preview builds not RTM releases. And yes I am also aware of specific OEM exception for Windows 11 Embedded devices, however those will actually go through proper vendor testing and will have vendor support to cover any issues. That path is squarely a vendor choice and support issue which is why Microsoft is allowing it.

 

You're very much getting in to the territory of "I don't see a benefit for X feature for me" which is not how Microsoft chooses what to include in to an OS and why. These are you opinions on what you value. What you value may not align with others or what the product developer specific intentions are.

 

This doesn't actually at all have to do with security, sure they might mostly all be security features but what category of feature it is actually has nothing at all to do with "Microsoft has chosen X feature as part of Windows 11 and due to extensive testing requires Y hardware level support". It simply starts and ends there.

 

Of course if you had it your way lets just go down the path of zero restrictions and assume there is no stability problems due to this. What say happens with Windows 11 23H1 if Microsoft release as part of that some new feature and that really does require hardware level support and you with your non supporting hardware as per Microsoft's Windows 11 published support lifecycle immediately goes unsupported because each feature version only gets 24 months support. You're now in a position of less support than if you were to stay on Windows 10 by a good 2 years.

 

We have no idea what the actual state is for Windows 11 now on any meaningful level and we have no idea about future Windows 11 feature updates because Microsoft like most other companies isn't going to tell you about anything that is not ready to talk about.

 

There is a Windows 11 support lifecycle, the impacts of that is actually rather important.

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You're very much getting in to the territory of "I don't see a benefit for X feature for me" which is not how Microsoft chooses what to include in to an OS and why. These are you opinions on what you value. What you value may not align with others or what the product developer specific intentions are.

Its not about me or anyone else for that matter. Its about the shady decision to cut off PC's just because the cpu doesnt support something which isnt needed for the OS to work. Like if they would restrict the OS to refuse to work if there is no fingerprint reader is present on the machine....

[gamagama69]

14 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's weird they aren't doing it now. Unless this whole Windows 11 was a plot with manufacturers and Microsoft to artificially push people into buying new hardware. Like there wasn't already huge demand for it as is...

The thing is that new low end hardware is supported. OEMs don't really use old hardware that isn't being produced anymore.

[GoodBytes]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Its not about me or anyone else for that matter. Its about the shady decision to cut off PC's just because the cpu doesnt support something which isnt needed for the OS to work. Like if they would restrict the OS to refuse to work if there is no fingerprint reader is present on the machine....

Microsoft tried this in the past... with this OS called Vista. Did you hear about the wonderful reputation that it got?

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Its not about me or anyone else for that matter. Its about the shady decision to cut off PC's just because the cpu doesnt support something which isnt needed for the OS to work. Like if they would restrict the OS to refuse to work if there is no fingerprint reader is present on the machine....

You're still making that statement with absolutely zero statistical information on wide scale performance and stability testing. And again it doesn't matter if you can make the OS work without a feature, like in the preview, what matters is the RTM build and what is required for that. You need this level of hardware support because the OS has this feature, that's how it is.

 

And to readdress that most fundamental and highly egregious reporting on this entire situation, do a clean install of Windows 11 Microsoft isn't going to stop you. Only upgrades have these strict blocks in place. However as per what Microsoft were actually saying, be warned future Feature Updates may not work on unsupported hardware and then you will be SOL on support and updates.

 

You can run Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, it just comes with an explicit warning so you are doing so of your own free will with prior warning.

[GDRRiley]

linux gaming hopefully will be good enough by 2025 so I don't need to update
I'll drop windows as soon as I can get most of my games running

[jagdtigger]

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft tried this in the past... with this OS called Vista. Did you hear about the wonderful reputation that it got?

Went from xp directly to 7 on a athlon 64x2, no probs at all.....  (/edit CPU was AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5200+)

 

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And again it doesn't matter if you can make the OS work without a feature

Thats the whole point, you dont have to make it work because it works out of the box!

Edited August 30, 2021 by jagdtigger

[GoodBytes]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And to readdress that most fundamental and highly egregious reporting on this entire situation, do a clean install of Windows 11 Microsoft isn't going to stop you. Only upgrades have these strict blocks in place. However as per what Microsoft were actually saying, be warned future Feature Updates may not work on unsupported hardware and then you will be SOL on support and updates.

From my understanding, you can upgrade via the Media Creation Tool, via the Update Assistance tool too. Just Windows Update won't present the Win11 update to users that don't have a compatible system.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Thats the whole point, you dont have to make it work because it works out of the box!

Correct, so clean install Windows 11 and move on.... where is the issue? That you just want to have a factually incorrect yell for absolutely no reason because reality isn't actually what you are saying it is, nor the media reports either for that matter.

 

And I'd stand by my point if that were not the case regarding clean install. Preview build is utterly irrelevant to the RTM release and what is deemed required for acceptable usability and stability, an issue you cannot address because you (and I) lack the data/evidence to support the counter of this situation that it would actually be fine.

 

It works out of the, 50% of the time. That would not go down well in the media and I know 100% you would be posting about Microsoft's incompetency on this forum if that were to transpire.

[GoodBytes]

16 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Went from xp directly to 7 on a athlon 64x2, no probs at all.....

The Athlon 64 X2 was designed for Vista, so Win7, which has nothing major changed from Vista on the back, naturally would run fine. 

I had this system, the CPU was on Socket 939, it was the Athlon 4400+ X2, 2GB of DDR1 @ 400MHz. Ran Vista like a dream. Had a GPU with 256MB of memory as well.

 

And what you are saying makes no sense... this is like you saying: I have a 9-10th gen Intel CPU, and Windows 11 runs fine... yea... its supported, of course you'll have a fine experience. So, I am not sure I follow you from that statement.

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

where is the issue?

Um, first they try to cut off systems for made-up reasons, then they fall back and instead they cut off updates..... No a scumbag company isnt an issue at all........... /s BTW exclamation point does not equal to yelling.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Um, first they try to cut off systems for made-up reasons, then they fall back and instead they cut off updates..... No a scumbag company isnt an issue at all........... /s BTW exclamation point does not equal to yelling.

No see your still wrong. You are reading the media titles and the media interpretation of what was said which doesn't actually match what Microsoft said. And everything before Microsoft made any statements around this whole issue was entirely made up by media reports, by those who had either zero idea what they were talking about or intentionally ignored how Microsoft supports Windows in the past.

 

I'd say you're a victim of unethical reporting but it feels an awful lot like willing participation.

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

No see your still wrong.

Will see about that, lets leave it at that.

[GoodBytes]

12 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

linux gaming hopefully will be good enough by 2025 so I don't need to update
I'll drop windows as soon as I can get most of my games running

I have been hearing people say this since the 90's... I see no change. Sorry, but everyone I see that goes Linux, returns to Windows.

A server OS doesn't fit in a desktop environment. And that won't change until the community changes. You can put whatever xWindows layers (which desperately needs to be scrapped, another discussion that even Linux dev community have been talking since well over 20 years and still going, and nothing has been done). And those that do, end up in a highly customized and rework the OS down deep down to make it all happen... so of course, it ends up closed source, and the community hates it... community still hates Ubuntu after all these years.

[leadeater]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Will see about that, lets leave it at that.

How am I wrong about media watching Microsoft release presentation, them seeing the recommended hardware support then all running off and creating the articles they did. I'm very much not wrong about that situation.

 

Yes the media did go off all guns blazing shooting first without bothering to get clarification or fact check.