COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Yeroh]

18 hours ago, tkitch said:

guaranteed not.  But the question is, assuming you're in a country that has vaccine shots currently, why are you NOT vaccinated?

I'm not vaccinated against Covid-19 either (even though I am vaccinated against other illnesses), and it's mainly out of fear of unforeseen side or long-term effects.

 

Yes, I know that Covid-19 itself isn't harmless, but let's also be realistic here. Within my age group (20-29) only 85 people have died while having the virus. 592.361 people in the same age group were infected, leaving us at a death risk of 0,00014%, and that is not even considering whether these people had prior illnesses or were under the influence of drugs or other substances - the actual risk might be even lower (all of the data is for Germany, by the way).

 

Meanwhile, people have literally died as a consequence of taking the AstraZeneca vaccine. A study from April even suggested that, given a low-exposure risk, the potential risk of vaccination even outweighs the benefit in age groups 20-29 and 30-39.

 

 

Granted, not everybody necessarily dies from Covid-19, you can still have a bad time regardless, I don't doubt that for a second. However, we don't really have much concrete data on the long-term effects of both the infection and the vaccination yet. Some argue that many illnesses, like the regular flu, can also take a while to fully recover from - others say that it's absolutely worse in the case of Covid. I don't know which of these findings is more credible, but the point is: It's not so clear to me that I need a vaccination to protect myself, especially when the risk that is involved with the vaccine is still partially unknown. And apparently, the vaccinations we have so far won't stop you from spreading it either.

 

Look, I'm not against vaccination in general, I just want to make a point that not everyone who's hesitant is necessarily someone who is hesitant out of ignorance or malice. I will likely end up getting the vaccine in the next couple of days since our government is essentially forcing us to, but I'm legitimately worried about potential side effects. I don't want to be, and I'm telling myself that it's safe, but cases like the narcolepsy that occurred after the swine flu vaccines do linger in my mind.

 

[captain_to_fire]

24 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

Meanwhile, people have literally died as a consequence of taking the AstraZeneca vaccine. A study from April even suggested that, given a low-exposure risk, the potential risk of vaccination even outweighs the benefit in age groups 20-29 and 30-39.

That contention has been refuted already by an up to date study. The article you cited is based on a theoretical model on computers, not an actual a widespread clinical study. [BMJ] [EMA]

 

 

24 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

However, we don't really have much concrete data on the long-term effects of both the infection and the vaccination yet.

We already have evidence on long term effects of both the infection and the vaccine. If you're concerned about the mRNA vaccines being new, you can opt for the adenovirus vector based vaccines (AZ, JNJ) which is already a proven technology for the likes of Ebola.

24 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

Yes, I know that Covid-19 itself isn't harmless, but let's also be realistic here. Within my age group (20-29) only 85 people have died while having the virus. 592.361 people in the same age group were infected, leaving us at a death risk of 0,00014%, and that is not even considering whether these people had prior illnesses or were under the influence of drugs or other substances - the actual risk might be even lower (all of the data is for Germany, by the way).

Everything changed with the Delta variant https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/09/health/coronavirus-children-delta.html

 

Benefits still outweigh the risk even for younger population.

[Commodus]

39 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

Look, I'm not against vaccination in general, I just want to make a point that not everyone who's hesitant is necessarily someone who is hesitant out of ignorance or malice. I will likely end up getting the vaccine in the next couple of days since our government is essentially forcing us to, but I'm legitimately worried about potential side effects. I don't want to be, and I'm telling myself that it's safe, but cases like the narcolepsy that occurred after the swine flu vaccines do linger in my mind.

I wouldn't worry about the effects. For vaccines, virtually all side-effects are short-term (i.e. within the first few weeks), and those few that manifest are almost always fully recoverable. In other words, it's only a tiny subset of a tiny subset that runs into trouble.

 

And it's not just that you're no longer safe by being young, it's that vaccination may be key to preventing spread to people around you. The less likely you are to be infected, the less likely it is that the virus will reach vulnerable people. Even if you'd bounce back quickly, your parents or close friends might not. For that matter, there are immunocompromised people who don't want to have to remain shut-ins for the next few years in the off-chance they run into you.

 

There's also a simple if harsh logical choice here: the potential effects of a vaccine are far, far outweighed by what could happen if you do develop a serious COVID-19 case. Anaphylactic shock and blood clots suck... but you can bounce back from those. Long-term or even permanent lung, heart and neurological damage sucks a lot more.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Yeroh said:

Meanwhile, people have literally died as a consequence of taking the AstraZeneca vaccine. A study from April even suggested that, given a low-exposure risk, the potential risk of vaccination even outweighs the benefit in age groups 20-29 and 30-39.

It's a completely valid point that the vaccine has the potential for (severe) side effects and it should not be ignored. If I remember correctly, that is also one of the main reasons why the AZ vaccines was recommended to only be used on 60+ age groups. As a side-note, is there a link to the actual study somehwere? It's a bit sloppy from the article to not reference it. I can't quite make out if the numbers on those diagrams are relative fractions or X per 10 000 people.

 

In addition to @captain_to_fire's references about this, there is a subtlety to take into account here: the fact that the diagram you quote is for the low exposure risk. COVID is no longer some dangerous, but exotic virus (say Ebola) that should only require a vaccination for if you go somewhere where it's active. It's so widespread, that your chances of catching it are significant enought to warrant preemptive vaccination. The diagram for high exposure risk shows a different story in line with that scenario, and is one of the argument why they conclude the benefits still outweigh the risks.

 

Consider this thought experiment regarding exposure risk: say you are a country where the virus has not emerged yet. The risk of infection and also of severe complications or even death due to the virus is 0%. If you now start preemptively vaccinating people against the virus, you'll have an infinitely larger risk getting complications or dying from the vaccine than from the virus. Now this is hypothetical, but it illustrates the delicate balance between the chance you catch the virus, the chance of severe complications once you catch it and how effective the vaccine is at preventing those complications.

1 hour ago, Yeroh said:

Granted, not everybody necessarily dies from Covid-19, you can still have a bad time regardless, I don't doubt that for a second. However, we don't really have much concrete data on the long-term effects of both the infection and the vaccination yet. Some argue that many illnesses, like the regular flu, can also take a while to fully recover from - others say that it's absolutely worse in the case of Covid. I don't know which of these findings is more credible, but the point is: It's not so clear to me that I need a vaccination to protect myself, especially when the risk that is involved with the vaccine is still partially unknown. And apparently, the vaccinations we have so far won't stop you from spreading it either.

COVID-19 has an average infection fatality rate (IFR) more than 10x higher than the flu, it will vary with age group, but the "no worse than the flu" part has long been debunked. We also know the vaccines are quite effective at reducing both illness and transmission. For example, the Biontech vaccine is effective to a degree that 95% of the time even PCR tests (the most sensitive and accurate ones) cannot detect traces of the virus anymore. If the virus has dropped to such undetectable levels in your body than transmission is also highly unlikely. This is further supported by the fact that the majority of hospitalisations now seem to be unvaccinated people [Dutch government, Forbes].

1 hour ago, Yeroh said:

Look, I'm not against vaccination in general, I just want to make a point that not everyone who's hesitant is necessarily someone who is hesitant out of ignorance or malice. I will likely end up getting the vaccine in the next couple of days since our government is essentially forcing us to, but I'm legitimately worried about potential side effects. I don't want to be, and I'm telling myself that it's safe, but cases like the narcolepsy that occurred after the swine flu vaccines do linger in my mind.

To perhaps put your mind at ease about side effects: a good significant number of them is known by now. We have vaccinated so many people world wide at this point that even the extremely rare ones have shown up. The potential ones that haven't shown up yet will be so rare that you should try not to worry about them.

51 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

We already have evidence on long term effects of both the infection and the vaccine. If you're concerned about the mRNA vaccines being new, you can opt for the adenovirus vector based vaccines (AZ, JNJ) which is already a proven technology for the likes of Ebola.

Also, as you say, mRNA vaccines may be new, it's not like they're completely unknown territory. They have been studied for years now.

[Quackers101]

3 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Damn! I hope her license gets revoked and she gets prison time. As for me I'm glad I saw the syringe being aspirated from the vial of JNJ and I felt the minor side effects.

At least it was not worse, but agree. *looks back at the silent hospital mass killers and one from germany not too long ago*

Again something that is good to try and be aware or get it from an doctor you trust, as healthcare is based around trust.

1 hour ago, captain_to_fire said:

Benefits still outweigh the risk even for younger population.

yes, heard from younger people on the news that did have covid and might be a part of long covid. That had their lungs likely been "cheese grated" by covid if one can call it that.

[tkitch]

2 hours ago, Yeroh said:

I'm not vaccinated against Covid-19 either (even though I am vaccinated against other illnesses), and it's mainly out of fear of unforeseen side or long-term effects.

So, you're worried about something that may or may not actually be an issue, vs a virus that is now filling pediatric ICUs with COVID patients?  Pre-Delta there was POSSIBLY an argument to be made about younger people not needing the shots.  That is 100% not the case ever since Delta became the thing.  (And now newer variants of Delta.)

 

Pediatric ICUs are now reporting higher number of kids than ever, and even infants being brought in for respirators.  It ain't good.
 

Quote

Meanwhile, people have literally died as a consequence of taking the AstraZeneca vaccine. A study from April even suggested that, given a low-exposure risk, the potential risk of vaccination even outweighs the benefit in age groups 20-29 and 30-39.

 

Okay, from your own links:

Risk of clotting from AZ vaccine:  1:100,000  
Risk of death is even lower than that, because it's absolutely treatable in most people who have the reaction.  

That sounds a LOT lower than your COVID deaths you quoted.  

The J&J Vaccine use in the US was paused after a single death and fewer than 10 reactions in total, despite having given MILLIONS of injections already.  What they found?  The risk was not that high.  

 

There will be allergies to /anything/ you use.  There are actually humans whose bodies react poorly to WATER.  There is literally nothing in the world that there are not reactions to.  So, that is something that will happen no matter what you do.  1:100,000 chance of a reaction (with death being even lower)?  Fuck yeah, I'll take that.  My odds are much worse when I get in the car to drive to work.

 

 

[Yeroh]

3 hours ago, tkitch said:

So, you're worried about something that may or may not actually be an issue, vs a virus that is now filling pediatric ICUs with COVID patients?  Pre-Delta there was POSSIBLY an argument to be made about younger people not needing the shots.  That is 100% not the case ever since Delta became the thing.  (And now newer variants of Delta.)

I am indeed, but not because I want to be. I'd happily turn the part of my brain off that brings me these worries if I could, but I haven't found the switch for that particular part, yet.

 

5 hours ago, tikker said:

COVID-19 has an average infection fatality rate (IFR) more than 10x higher than the flu, it will vary with age group, but the "no worse than the flu" part has long been debunked.

Sorry, I think I was unclear in my phrasing. I didn't mean to say that they're the same, what I wanted to say was in regards to the "Long Covid" concerns. I've heard on multiple occasions that while they're valid concerns, they're not novel to Covid and have also been observed after the regular flu. Not that that makes it any better of course, but if that's the case then I suppose we're at least somewhat familiar with how to treat these long-term effects.

 

5 hours ago, tikker said:

To perhaps put your mind at ease about side effects: a good significant number of them is known by now. We have vaccinated so many people world wide at this point that even the extremely rare ones have shown up. The potential ones that haven't shown up yet will be so rare that you should try not to worry about them.

Thanks, I appreciate the effort. That's the one part that does actually calm me a little bit - outside of the traditional vaccines like Astra Zeneca, it seems like there aren't many reports about the mRNA vaccines leading to death or long-term complications. The worst I've heard is the myocarditis, which seems to be rare and mostly mild cases.

 

5 hours ago, Commodus said:

There's also a simple if harsh logical choice here: the potential effects of a vaccine are far, far outweighed by what could happen if you do develop a serious COVID-19 case. Anaphylactic shock and blood clots suck... but you can bounce back from those. Long-term or even permanent lung, heart and neurological damage sucks a lot more.

I agree. I never meant to argue that it's statistically more sound to not take the vaccine, all I'm really asking for is some understanding. I hate how quickly people are branded as being "against vaccines" nowadays simply because they're sceptical or hesitant (hence why I replied to the somewhat aggressively phrased question). And I also think it's counterproductive to brand someone as the enemy when they might just need to be pointed in the right direction. I have lots of friends and family who are in a similar position to me and none of them are outright refusing to take the vaccine. We're getting so many news everyday that it can be hard to navigate the wealth of information - and much of it conflicts with each other as well, which doesn't exactly make it easier to tell what's right or wrong.

[Commodus]

13 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

I agree. I never meant to argue that it's statistically more sound to not take the vaccine, all I'm really asking for is some understanding. I hate how quickly people are branded as being "against vaccines" nowadays simply because they're sceptical or hesitant (hence why I replied to the somewhat aggressively phrased question). And I also think it's counterproductive to brand someone as the enemy when they might just need to be pointed in the right direction. I have lots of friends and family who are in a similar position to me and none of them are outright refusing to take the vaccine. We're getting so many news everyday that it can be hard to navigate the wealth of information - and much of it conflicts with each other as well, which doesn't exactly make it easier to tell what's right or wrong.

I getcha. It's true that there really is a "vaccine hesitant" camp that's not strictly against getting shots, but might not clearly understand the science or what's at stake. We have to remember that.

 

One of the problems, as I see it, is that a lot of information is taken out of context. People hear "there might be side-effects," for example, but not how rare those are (extremely) or how they typically manifest with vaccines (i.e. almost always in the short term). They may hear that the vaccines were rushed into service, but not that the shots went through exceptionally large clinical trials and were based on well-established concepts.

 

I'd add that the pandemic has also been a test of critical thinking. Many people aren't used to vetting the quality of sources, making sure claims are presented in context and otherwise being skeptical... but that's absolutely necessary in situations like this. Misinformation has spread in part because it's easy for a quack doctor or conspiracy theorist to whip up a plausible-looking claim or twist something out of its context.

 

I'll say this: I've had two mRNA vaccine doses, and the only effects for me were a sore arm (for the first) and a day of high temperatures and headaches (for the second). Your vaccination will vary, but mine is apparently a very common experience.

[WkdPaul]

27 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I'd add that the pandemic has also been a test of critical thinking. Many people aren't used to vetting the quality of sources, making sure claims are presented in context and otherwise being skeptical... but that's absolutely necessary in situations like this. Misinformation has spread in part because it's easy for a quack doctor or conspiracy theorist to whip up a plausible-looking claim or twist something out of its context.

Not just that, but also logical fallacies, some people fall into obvious logical fallacies and can't seem to get out of it even when you clearly point it out.

 

One of the most obvious one currently is the syllogistic fallacy ; you can still get COVID even though you're vaccinated (not sure who told them the vaccines were 100% efficient, last I checked, every sources will tell you it's 95% at most), so since it's possible to still get infected, it means the vaccine is useless and/or unnecessary! (This is basically the "All sharks are fish, all salmon are fish, therefore all salmon are sharks" fallacy = "you can get COVID is you're unvaxx, you can get COVID if you're vaxx, therefore vaccines are useless in stopping infections").

 

This type of mental gymnastic is (IMO) way worse than getting misinformation from "alternative" sources because they're actively jumping through hoops.

 

I can understand hesitancy and fear of side effects ; my wife was scared of getting the second dose BECAUSE they warned the population that the mild side effects are worse with the second shot ... her anxiety amplified the "side effects are worse" part without taking into account that it's stuff like headaches and site injections pain and muscle pains that are worse, not life threatening ones. But because of the AZ blood cloth stories, she somehow linked all this together, it took some time to explain everything and in the end she got her shot but was still stressed about it.

[Falkentyne]

IT FEELS SO GOOD TO BE ABLE TO TASTE SUGAR AGAIN!  Lemonade and Honey never ever tasted so good!!!  

[CerealExperimentsLain]

37 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

One of the most obvious one currently is the syllogistic fallacy ; you can still get COVID even though you're vaccinated (not sure who told them the vaccines were 100% efficient, last I checked, every sources will tell you it's 95% at most), so since it's possible to still get infected, it means the vaccine is useless and/or unnecessary! (This is basically the "All sharks are fish, all salmon are fish, therefore all salmon are sharks" fallacy = "you can get COVID is you're unvaxx, you can get COVID if you're vaxx, therefore vaccines are useless in stopping infections").

I'm puzzled by this view when you'll never see cops or soldiers saying 'Well, the body armor doesn't protect your entire body.  One shot to the head and your done!  So why wear body armor at all???'  And also never 'You got body armor right?  Armor works!  Run on out there!  What are you afraid of!'.  It's agreed upon that body armor statistically improves survivability but you should also avoid getting needlessly shot at.  More over, it's also agreed upon that when you do get shot, it's not just 'your personal choice and personal consequences' cause now four other people have to drag you back to safety and expose themselves to increased risk in doing so.  You get messed up being stupid and you make yourself a liability for your buddies to take care of.

But vaccines?  People are real willing to ignore all of that,

[Andreas Lilja]

Tired of the old "deaths" argument, as if it's the only variable when dealing with disease. 

 

 

[KKLawrence]

I've seen the old virus spread in the senior residence where my mom works and it was cruel. Of the 150 residents 20 died in a month, many of them alone and without seeing their family before. That was in December. Many people seem to forget, that when you're vaccinated, you are basically a non-factor in spreading the disease. So if, at the time, 100 people were vaccinated, maybe only five would have lost their lives.

And I know, It's also true, that the death rate isn't as high with younger people, but death isn't all. I've read so many long term effects of long covid, that will hinder your quality of life for many years, maybe even through old age. It also may shorten your life span, because of the toll your lung may take. But if you're vaccinated, the risk of getting covid or having any severe long term effects is very small.

Now to the vaccines:

I've informed myself about other vaccines, what are their long term effects. And basically - there are none. From what I learned (and I'm no expert), side effects appear only in the first two months after getting vaccinated. The reaction to the AZ vaccines (blod clots) can be triggered by the vaccine, but are mostly caused by taking the birth-control-pill. Taking birth control will increse risks of blod clots by a lot, and almost any vaccine could have triggered these. There are pills on the market from the 60s, where no one asks about long term effects.

 

In conclusion: Yes, getting vaccinated is logical. And yes, some concerns can be true, but see them in relation. If you'd really deeply care about your health, wouldn't you also apply the same concerns from vaccines to pain killers, allergy meds and meat with antibiotika residue?

I don't mean that to offend you, but in my thinking, there was never a debate if I should get vaccinated, because I also enjoy chicken McNuggets from McDonalds and I think that will give me more severe long term effects, even tho I'm not overweight.

[Nowak]

17 hours ago, tikker said:

Also, as you say, mRNA vaccines may be new, it's not like they're completely unknown territory. They have been studied for years now.

Haven't they been researched since the 1980s? I know the technology's technically older than I am, this is just the first time they've been found to be effective against something.

[tikker]

15 hours ago, Yeroh said:

Thanks, I appreciate the effort. That's the one part that does actually calm me a little bit - outside of the traditional vaccines like Astra Zeneca, it seems like there aren't many reports about the mRNA vaccines leading to death or long-term complications. The worst I've heard is the myocarditis, which seems to be rare and mostly mild cases.

Further realise that those are rare side-effects. To put them in a little bit of context:

Quote

As of June 11, 2021, approximately 296 million doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines had been administered in the United States, with 52 million administered to persons aged 12–29 years; of these, 30 million were first and 22 million were second doses. Within the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) (4), the national vaccine safety passive monitoring system, 1,226 reports of myocarditis after mRNA vaccination were received during December 29, 2020–June 11, 2021.

[CDC]

Now I'm not doing a rigourous statistical analysis, but just those numbers have 0.0004% of reported cases so far showing myocarditis, or roughly 1 in 241,000. The yearly incidence of this is 1-10 in 100,000 (~0.001%) in general. You are probably more likely to catch it naturally from an infection or disease than from the vaccine. The risk of death is also low. Most of the deaths after vaccination occur in very old people with already existing conditions. This study find a 8.2 per 1,000,000 or 0.00082% mortality rate, but they don't give an age breakdown. Now as I said, this is not my field of study, but these are all very low compared to the complications of COVID itself. With the 0.65% IFR, naievely assuming the same skewness, you'd be over 700 times more likely to die from COVID than from the vaccine. Encountering the virus is basically a given at this point, just a matter of when rather than if. That is why researchers keep advocating the vaccine. They protect you, others and allow us to maybe push that encounter back to if.

13 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

her anxiety amplified the "side effects are worse" part without taking into account that it's stuff like headaches and site injections pain and muscle pains that are worse, not life threatening ones.

This is such a big hurdle in communication. People will hear "twice as likely", not realising that it's highly unlikely to begin with. Our government chose to be rather transparent about their choices and discussions, and that also backfired, because the constantly changing picture came across as not knowing what they are doing. If they'd choose not to share something they'd be accused of hiding information. Our public health board had even been taken to court over their research and why it's just another flu.

[Yeroh]

5 hours ago, tikker said:

Further realise that those are rare side-effects. To put them in a little bit of context:

Now I'm not doing a rigourous statistical analysis, but just those numbers have 0.0004% of reported cases so far showing myocarditis, or roughly 1 in 241,000. The yearly incidence of this is 1-10 in 100,000 (~0.001%) in general. You are probably more likely to catch it naturally from an infection or disease than from the vaccine. The risk of death is also low. Most of the deaths after vaccination occur in very old people with already existing conditions. This study find a 8.2 per 1,000,000 or 0.00082% mortality rate, but they don't give an age breakdown. Now as I said, this is not my field of study, but these are all very low compared to the complications of COVID itself. With the 0.65% IFR, naievely assuming the same skewness, you'd be over 700 times more likely to die from COVID than from the vaccine. Encountering the virus is basically a given at this point, just a matter of when rather than if. That is why researchers keep advocating the vaccine. They protect you, others and allow us to maybe push that encounter back to if.

I did get the first vaccination today. Barely any waiting time as well. Had to learn a valuable lesson though, apparently a coffee isn't sufficient nutrition before getting the vaccination. A couple of minutes after getting the vaccine I collapsed in the waiting room and was treated for another 45 minutes, making the entire process a lot more bothersome than it could've been.

 

Well I guess at least I made the morning more interesting for the staff and also scared my girlfriend to death in the process. Now I just hope the side effects will be a bit more tame with proper preparation for the second shot.

 

Thanks again for the encouragement!

[tikker]

23 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

I did get the first vaccination today. Barely any waiting time as well. Had to learn a valuable lesson though, apparently a coffee isn't sufficient nutrition before getting the vaccination. A couple of minutes after getting the vaccine I collapsed in the waiting room and was treated for another 45 minutes, making the entire process a lot more bothersome than it could've been.

 

Well I guess at least I made the morning more interesting for the staff and also scared my girlfriend to death in the process. Now I just hope the side effects will be a bit more tame with proper preparation for the second shot.

 

Thanks again for the encouragement!

I don't think those are related haha. I've never heard of general food advice for vaccinations (besides alcohol, but that and medicine is hardly ever a good idea). Everybody responds differently. It may have just been your nerves or relieve of nothing noteworthy happening. Naturally they won't let you go, as it may also have been in reaction to the vaccine. This is exactly why they make you stay.

[Quackers101]

2 hours ago, Yeroh said:

I did get the first vaccination today. Barely any waiting time as well. Had to learn a valuable lesson though, apparently a coffee isn't sufficient nutrition before getting the vaccination. A couple of minutes after getting the vaccine I collapsed in the waiting room and was treated for another 45 minutes, making the entire process a lot more bothersome than it could've been.

 

Well I guess at least I made the morning more interesting for the staff and also scared my girlfriend to death in the process. Now I just hope the side effects will be a bit more tame with proper preparation for the second shot.

Multi-quote not working great 

But yes, drinking water or being in shape aka also eating enough to function can help.  

I do this often, when it comes to doing blood samples having some water (staff being accustomed to brining water) or to keep up with some sugar (juice or water with "flavour"). Sometimes this could go for vaccines too, not sure how much, and can be related to other things as well. Keep yourself hydrated! Also some can be shock, like phobia if you got one. About needles, foreign objects entering or blood, etc. Keeping your head clear and not being hungry/exhausted could help? (unsure)

1 hour ago, tikker said:

I don't think those are related haha. I've never heard of general food advice for vaccinations (besides alcohol, but that and medicine is hardly ever a good idea). Everybody responds differently. It may have just been your nerves or relieve of nothing noteworthy happening. Naturally they won't let you go, as it may also have been in reaction to the vaccine. This is exactly why they make you stay.

Dizzyness is another thing, if you ever feel dizzy in a hospital or doing something medically, drinking some water and getting fresh air might help. If that was ever felt during the vaccination, I'm not sure if someone else knows about it and can explain things better.

[tikker]

12 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

Dizzyness is another thing, if you ever feel dizzy in a hospital or doing something medically, drinking some water and getting fresh air might help. If that was ever felt during the vaccination, I'm not sure if someone else knows about it and can explain things better.

Dizzyness or sleepiness on the day of the vaccine is quite common among people I've spoken to.

[PhantomJaguarr]

Fake vaccine cards are increasingly becoming a thing since more establishments here are requiring customers/clients to be vaccinated before entering their business. 
 

Quote

“The people that you’re sharing this data with, these are shady people,” said Eva Velasquez, president and CEO of the San Diego-based Identity Theft Resource Center. "What would make you think that they’re not going to misuse your information in another way?

 

In fact, a bogus vaccination card obtained by NBC 7 shows the buyer gave a date of birth and, in all likelihood, other personal information.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/coronavirus/mandates-create-booming-black-market-for-fake-vaccination-cards/2690217/?amp

[Nowak]

14 minutes ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

Fake vaccine cards are increasingly becoming a thing since more establishments here are requiring customers/clients to be vaccinated before entering their business. 
 

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/coronavirus/mandates-create-booming-black-market-for-fake-vaccination-cards/2690217/?amp

I have a feeling that people posting their vaccination cards on Twitter and Facebook allowed this to become a huge thing.

[Quackers101]

22 minutes ago, Nowak said:

I have a feeling that people posting their vaccination cards on Twitter and Facebook allowed this to become a huge thing.

b-b-but got to flex on the anti-vaxx!

[Mister Woof]

23 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Not just that, but also logical fallacies, some people fall into obvious logical fallacies and can't seem to get out of it even when you clearly point it out.

 

One of the most obvious one currently is the syllogistic fallacy ; you can still get COVID even though you're vaccinated (not sure who told them the vaccines were 100% efficient, last I checked, every sources will tell you it's 95% at most), so since it's possible to still get infected, it means the vaccine is useless and/or unnecessary! (This is basically the "All sharks are fish, all salmon are fish, therefore all salmon are sharks" fallacy = "you can get COVID is you're unvaxx, you can get COVID if you're vaxx, therefore vaccines are useless in stopping infections").

 

This type of mental gymnastic is (IMO) way worse than getting misinformation from "alternative" sources because they're actively jumping through hoops.

 

I can understand hesitancy and fear of side effects ; my wife was scared of getting the second dose BECAUSE they warned the population that the mild side effects are worse with the second shot ... her anxiety amplified the "side effects are worse" part without taking into account that it's stuff like headaches and site injections pain and muscle pains that are worse, not life threatening ones. But because of the AZ blood cloth stories, she somehow linked all this together, it took some time to explain everything and in the end she got her shot but was still stressed about it.

I always relate it to a video game mechanic.

 

Like tanking in video games. 

 

So this ability reduce the damage you take. If you use it, you might still take damage, and you might still die, but it reduces the damage you take by 50-90%.

 

Are you going to refrain from using it because it doesn't stop all damage? 

 

And if you don't use it, and you die, the raid wipes.

 

Don't be that guy. Use your DRs. Use your mitigation. Help your team defeat the raid boss.

 

[Nowak]

3 hours ago, Mister Woof said:

I always relate it to a video game mechanic.

 

Like tanking in video games. 

 

So this ability reduce the damage you take. If you use it, you might still take damage, and you might still die, but it reduces the damage you take by 50-90%.

 

Are you going to refrain from using it because it doesn't stop all damage? 

 

And if you don't use it, and you die, the raid wipes.

 

Don't be that guy. Use your DRs. Use your mitigation. Help your team defeat the raid boss.

 

Alright, but how about from a DPS perspective?  

[captain_to_fire]

7 hours ago, tikker said:

I don't think those are related haha. I've never heard of general food advice for vaccinations (besides alcohol, but that and medicine is hardly ever a good idea). Everybody responds differently. It may have just been your nerves or relieve of nothing noteworthy happening. Naturally they won't let you go, as it may also have been in reaction to the vaccine. This is exactly why they make you stay.

Based on experience, perhaps one third of the people who lined up for vaccination with me didn't ate breakfast because they thought it is contraindicated as if it's a blood test for fasting glucose lol. Eating a full meal is highly encouraged because the lines can be quite long.