COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Andreas Lilja]

1 hour ago, tikker said:

What 4 million?

4 million Covid deaths.

 

Tired of the "it's mostly the elderly, virus ain't that bad". 

[rockyroller]

45 minutes ago, Shykoh said:

One thing we've learned from this Pandemic is that countries take care of their own first. Sad but true. Talks about booster shots in Europe and the U.S. while a good portion of South America, Africa, and Asia still haven't gotten their first doses. Its a moral dilemma, but if the booster is paid for and in my country might as well take it.

you mean the political class regardless of age were vaccinated long before the elderly in care homes. Then when it comes to regulations, the political class are found to be the first to break them with immense distain to the message of covid safety they push out to the rest of us.

 

I think when it comes to Africa or South America the political class there would prefer to spend what money there is on the usual gravy train than on a vaccine. So the people get free charity dose the 'west' provide.

Too much of a reginal blackout on world events to comment on Asia, but China and Russia developed their own vaccine I understand and the EU wanted to buy some of the Russian one as they f up investing then buying the Europe developed one. China is on another lockdown.

Russia, China and Iran are more interested in starting a 3rd world war by crossing lines in the sands than this pandemic.

 

[Quackers101]

its very weird looking back, now nearly 2 to 3 years and on the deadly waves. Now it nearly seems like it has been forgotten how deadly it was or still can be and to the side effects from getting it, long term.

[MultiGamerClub]

Second dose in october 14'th.. Gonna be good.

 

Got my first at 22'th July 2021.. Weird arm feelin and pain in my LEGS but hey im not infected and im wearing a mask when norway actually removed mask requirement...

 

Oh well, hoping the future isnt too bad.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Andreas Lilja said:

4 million Covid deaths.

 

Tired of the "it's mostly the elderly, virus ain't that bad". 

Ah right. Yeah it hits far more people then elderly. Young people may have a significantly lower change at getting hit hard, but it's not any less dangerous if it does. It's not a flu and we're not invincible. It's sad, but the people that say that just won't accept/believe how dangerous it can be until their own imminent demise. 4 million is also a lot of people. Like relative to the world population not many, but in the sense of a deadly disease it's quite the number.

57 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

its very weird looking back, now nearly 2 to 3 years and on the deadly waves. Now it nearly seems like it has been forgotten how deadly it was or still can be and to the side effects from getting it, long term.

It's just the constant strain and never ending stream of bad news that kina mushes it all together. Not that it isn't sad or not worth remembering, but it has been just 2 years of constant negative news and strict regulations. People are getting tired and want to get back to normal. Not that that's an excuse to behave like they do of course, and it does make it harder to achieve it.

[Donut417]

A little off topic, anyone hear about the case of Bubonic Plague that was found in Colorado? A bit concerning. 

 

https://local12.com/news/nation-world/death-of-american-10-year-old-being-linked-to-bubonic-plague?fbclid=IwAR1SNpsUzHGj0rahiAWQ0_BZ8ifOY4bQgzhZIizJATfaqtvRtmxKLgKHHGI

 

[SansVarnic]

9 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

But you should be "for" the vaccine, even if you also support valid medical exemptions - hell, even if you support a person's decision to simply not take the vaccine, you should still be "for" it.

I will continue to take the impartial, or devil's advocate, position in this topic, as I have no need to make public my personal position on Covid, the vaccine or the pandemic.

I have avoided this topic for the length of time that I have as I saw the amount of emotional, misinformed, truly ironic and just plain wrong being said here. It is too easy to make, assume and presume another's position. Being a moderator puts me automatically on a pedestal (whether I like it or not) and I won't give my position on this for the sake of being categorized because of it. Also, it will diminish my role here.

 

That said, I will neither be 'fore' or 'against' the vaccine, as while choice is available, I will always choose freedom of individual regardless of the how others feel or think the situation is or may be. That will never change. The moment an individual is forced to do something [public opinion or politically] whether it is taking the vaccine (for example) or anything else, that freedom of self is taken away and will be abused. History teaches us this [over and over]. Please do not misunderstand me but you are being a bit pushy on this point and I cannot in good conscience do so because I am being told so.

 

I know and work with other that have gotten the vaccine and have not gotten the vaccine, and I make no issue of it, I am respectful towards both equally as I should be. I will treat them as I would before Covid. If people want to wear a mask or not, I will still give them the respect [and distance if they wish] they want just like I was raised to be. I don't judge I dont make an issue. I do by me, and they do by them, that is how it should be and nothing else.

 

8 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

A little off topic, anyone hear about the case of Bubonic Plague that was found in Colorado? A bit concerning. 

 

https://local12.com/news/nation-world/death-of-american-10-year-old-being-linked-to-bubonic-plague?fbclid=IwAR1SNpsUzHGj0rahiAWQ0_BZ8ifOY4bQgzhZIizJATfaqtvRtmxKLgKHHGI

 

Concerning but if I remember correctly there are a few cases reported every year in the US...

Yeah I had to look it up... https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html

In most cases the infected survive.

[Andreas Lilja]

9 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

https://local12.com/news/nation-world/death-of-american-10-year-old-being-linked-to-bubonic-plague?fbclid=IwAR1SNpsUzHGj0rahiAWQ0_BZ8ifOY4bQgzhZIizJATfaqtvRtmxKLgKHHGI

 

More concerned about the fact that he likely had symptoms and no article talks about medical attention.

[PhantomJaguarr]

Covid cases are up in our stores and more employees are turning back to wearing masks even when fully vaccinated. Myself included. I couldn’t find masks in the stores I usually go to so I gave up and just ordered USA-made ones on Amazon. If what I got a few weeks ago was Covid, the Pfizer vaccine and being young helped to reduce it to a mere cold.

 

Quote

University of California, San Diego infectious disease physician, Dr. Shira Abeles, said that at UCSD Health, about one-third of COVID-19 cases have been among those who have been vaccinated. Although those patients displayed symptoms, no one was showed signs of dangerous side effects and no hospitalizations occurred.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ucsd-doctor-talks-breakthrough-covid-19-cases-says-vaccine-is-still-best-protection/2679768/

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

University of California, San Diego infectious disease physician, Dr. Shira Abeles, said that at UCSD Health, about one-third of COVID-19 cases have been among those who have been vaccinated. Although those patients displayed symptoms, no one was showed signs of dangerous side effects and no hospitalizations occurred.

δ variant

• viral load of exposed individuals are the same for both vaccinated and unvaccinated
• all vaccines have reduced efficacy in preventing symptomatic illness thanks to the three mutations in the spike protein binding domains
• there are cases of "breakthrough infections" among vaccinated individuals but remained mild like a bad cold.
• However, a large majority of people succumbing to severe and life threatening illness are unvaccinated ones.
• Vaccines still work in preventing severe illness

I really hope more people get vaccinated especially here, because there is a possibility that the λ variant may become resistant to all existing vaccines, then it will become a game of whack-a-mole for years to come.

 

[Andreas Lilja]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/

 

Well there goes the "it's not 100% approved" goalpost. What will the deniers come up with?

[tikker]

5 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/

 

Well there goes the "it's not 100% approved" goalpost. What will the deniers come up with?

That it's rushed, untested and a ploy to get us to take the vaccine.

[PhantomJaguarr]

14 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/

 

Well there goes the "it's not 100% approved" goalpost. What will the deniers come up with?

No wonder my stocks in BioNTech are shooting up into the sky right now. 

[tikker]

12 minutes ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

No wonder my stocks in BioNTech are shooting up into the sky right now. 

Dang, I was literally joking and thinking about investing in the vaccine companies like half a year ago... Should've done as I said.

[rockyroller]

On 8/3/2021 at 9:15 PM, tikker said:

I don't get where people get all these ideas that these vaccination campaingns imply all these authoritarian regimes or breaches of fundamental human rights. Freedom of choice goes both ways. If you choose to not get vaccinated against a highly infectious disease that can kill, then you have to live with the consequences that at least for the near future the world chooses that you will be denied access to a variety of things.

  

Whenever there is a detrimental effect made against the individual which wouldn't normally occur then I'm sorry to inform you there is no freedom of choice; instead there is coercion. The types of Governmental threats I've seen being made is a expulsion from education, work (removal of unemployment benefits might get involved too?) and even social events.

I can't see this Covid merits such draconian responses unless there is something they are refusing to tell us about its function. 

 

Long Covid looks akin to CFS to me.

[tikker]

27 minutes ago, rockyroller said:

Whenever there is a detrimental effect made against the individual which wouldn't normally occur then I'm sorry to inform you there is no freedom of choice; instead there is coercion. The types of Governmental threats I've seen being made is a expulsion from education, work (removal of unemployment benefits might get involved too?) and even social events.

I don't see most of the regulations as draconian at from the start of the pandemic till now. Explusion from education is a bit tricky and bad (all this 5G and conspiracy nonsense are enough examples...). Removal from work in my opinion is completely justified if you work in a sensitive sector such as healthcare or work with elderly. In office jobs not really. Social events is completely up to the organiser, and for those I stand by my earlier point. If you have the right to refuse the vaccine for a deadly infection, they have the right to refuse you entrance. Freedom of choice doesn't only apply when its in favour of ourselves.

27 minutes ago, rockyroller said:

I can't see this Covid merits such draconian responses unless there is something they are refusing to tell us about its function.

This whole pandemic is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We are dealing with a highly infectious and deadly virus. If governments did nothing and let half the country die people would be mad they did nothing, now they try and control it and people are mad it takes them so long. There's a good chance these people have had multiple vaccinations as a child already against a range of common diseases that would be rather deadly without them and that they, thanks to that vaccine, either only got mildly or not at all. Taking the vaccine will only help us get back to normalcy faster.

 

Add to that that we have recently found a Lambda variant that might be resistant to current vaccines. If we don't manage the current situation well enough, we'll end up with quite the moral dilemma of continuing with lockdowns and alike (which will make people mad because "hidden agendas", "overreaction" etc.), or accepting large amounts of deaths (which will make people mad because "not helping us", "what are they thinking" etc.). It's a virus. Its function is simply to infect get the body reproduce its payload, which unfortunately comes with a good chance of little side-effects known as organ damage and death for us.

27 minutes ago, rockyroller said:

Long Covid looks akin to CFS to me.

Except your lungs and potentially other organs have gone through the cheesegrater and are severly damaged for a good chunk of if not the total rest of your life.

[Andreas Lilja]

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/legault-announces-quebec-will-move-ahead-with-vaccination-passport

 

Excellent move. 

[CerealExperimentsLain]

32 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/legault-announces-quebec-will-move-ahead-with-vaccination-passport

 

Excellent move. 

Bring it on.  We did out part. We isolated, we worked from home, we kept our kids at home, we did what we could to reduce hospital numbers, we lined up and got the shot. I'm fine with keeping restrictions while we protect those under the age of 12 until they can be vaccinated, but if the only reason we're under restrictions is because of the willfully unvaccinated, then let's leave them behind. They can eat on the patio while we eat indoors. They can watch the live stream while we go to the real event. They can do curb side pickup while we browse the showroom.

[Donut417]

I thought I seen it all. Now they are selling fake Vaccine cards. The good news is the FBI is on it and has warned this type of shit will NOT be tolerated. But its sad that people even stoop so low. 

[Andreas Lilja]

6 hours ago, Donut417 said:

I thought I seen it all. Now they are selling fake Vaccine cards. The good news is the FBI is on it and has warned this type of shit will NOT be tolerated. But its sad that people even stoop so low. 

I thought the vaccine didn't work aka you can get it to comply no risk. 

[rockyroller]

12 hours ago, tikker said:

I don't see most of the regulations as draconian at from the start of the pandemic till now. Explusion from education is a bit tricky and bad (all this 5G and conspiracy nonsense are enough examples...). Removal from work in my opinion is completely justified if you work in a sensitive sector such as healthcare or work with elderly. In office jobs not really. Social events is completely up to the organiser, and for those I stand by my earlier point. If you have the right to refuse the vaccine for a deadly infection, they have the right to refuse you entrance. Freedom of choice doesn't only apply when its in favour of ourselves.

This whole pandemic is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We are dealing with a highly infectious and deadly virus. If governments did nothing and let half the country die people would be mad they did nothing, now they try and control it and people are mad it takes them so long. There's a good chance these people have had multiple vaccinations as a child already against a range of common diseases that would be rather deadly without them and that they, thanks to that vaccine, either only got mildly or not at all. Taking the vaccine will only help us get back to normalcy faster.

 

Add to that that we have recently found a Lambda variant that might be resistant to current vaccines. If we don't manage the current situation well enough, we'll end up with quite the moral dilemma of continuing with lockdowns and alike (which will make people mad because "hidden agendas", "overreaction" etc.), or accepting large amounts of deaths (which will make people mad because "not helping us", "what are they thinking" etc.). It's a virus. Its function is simply to infect get the body reproduce its payload, which unfortunately comes with a good chance of little side-effects known as organ damage and death for us.

Except your lungs and potentially other organs have gone through the cheesegrater and are severly damaged for a good chunk of if not the total rest of your life.

 

What you seem to be saying is employers of a static workers area do not wish to become liable for insurance claims for allowing an employee or visitor to catch the full load of the virus from a risk basis. The vaccinated will still spread it, but one has to assume the unvaccinated will have a higher load potential. Not a certainty when herd immunity is in effect as what the load factor depends upon will be now unvaccinated infecting unvaccinated with a high load as the vaccinated will be low load vectors. There is talk now for a mandatory 3rd vaccine shot now.

 

Because of other illnesses I feel committing suicide should never be illegal. So if C19 is that lethal not being vaccinated by choice is akin to being prepared for potential suicide. Killing other by your virus spreading can't be any worse than any other accident, and we know car accidents cause far more death and mutilation than this virus, even by those who passed the tests to drive. 

 

I think you'll be looking at ethical issues here, the needs of the one vs the needs of the few vs the profits from insurers needing to pay claims.

I personally feel a number of privileges were removed when the world didn't know much about the epidemiology. I think we are still witnessing some abuses around the world by selected Police branches. Project fear over this virus far outweighed ever other virus outbreak and I believe those other conditions were far deadlier. HIV, BSE to name two. I don't know much about SARS 1, but did the experience warrant what we witness now.

But we have individual histories now. The UK had front bench MPs and the Prime Minister get the illness, get vaccinated for the publicity, and go into quarantine after getting the infection again. We also see them go unmasked when having meet and greet parties at political gatherings and only putting on the mask when the camera comes out for the gatherings photoshoot. Very much a case of one rule for thee but not for me. 

 

 

 

Last time i looked at the CFS research there history was  the act of a virus infection that triggered the later symptoms of CFS. They were looking into that vector to understand what was occurring at a cellular level.. Putting C19 damage into the equation would be like including a car running the patient over prior to the virus triggering homeostasis alterations.

 

[rockyroller]

3 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

I thought the vaccine didn't work aka you can get it to comply no risk. 

define works.. what the vaccine does is lower the potential of death occurring from C19. You can still catch it, spread low doses of it to others. Low in that they potentially will get ill and spread low doses too but not die. It is a method of herd immunity making C19 no worse than a common cold. 

[tikker]

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

What you seem to be saying is employers of a static workers area do not wish to become liable for insurance claims for allowing an employee or visitor to catch the full load of the virus from a risk basis. The vaccinated will still spread it, but one has to assume the unvaccinated will have a higher load potential. Not a certainty when herd immunity is in effect as what the load factor depends upon will be now unvaccinated infecting unvaccinated with a high load as the vaccinated will be low load vectors. There is talk now for a mandatory 3rd vaccine shot now.

Unvaccinated people will certainly carry a higher viral load than vaccinated people. That's the entire point of vaccines. Recent studies have concluded that the current vaccines indeed significantly reduce the spread for at least the first 3 variants. The Delta variant seems to be less affected by them. Of course companies don't want to be liable. The point is that infection at the moment is a mostly preventable risk if you take the vaccine. Herd immunity is at the moment unlikely at best for COVID-19 now. Part of that is caused by so many people refusing to take the vaccine. I have heard about the 3rd shot, because we don't know how effective the vaccination still is after say a year.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

Because of other illnesses I feel committing suicide should never be illegal. So if C19 is that lethal not being vaccinated by choice is akin to being prepared for potential suicide. Killing other by your virus spreading can't be any worse than any other accident, and we know car accidents cause far more death and mutilation than this virus, even by those who passed the tests to drive. 

Well I don't think calling not vaccinating yourself suicide or even killing others. Suicide is actively making your death happen, that does not mean waiting for a chance to catch a virus to hopefully die from it. You are, however, putting yourself and others around you in (potential) danger by not getting vaccinated. On the legal part you can perfectly fine get charged for intentionally coughing on someone, pretending to give them COVID etc. so yes, actively trying to spread the virus is punishable.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

I think you'll be looking at ethical issues here, the needs of the one vs the needs of the few vs the profits from insurers needing to pay claims.

I personally feel a number of privileges were removed when the world didn't know much about the epidemiology. I think we are still witnessing some abuses around the world by selected Police branches.

Police abuse is its own issue has nothing to do with SARS-CoV-2. You can always find a "but what about ...".

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

Project fear over this virus far outweighed ever other virus outbreak and I believe those other conditions were far deadlier. HIV, BSE to name two. I don't know much about SARS 1, but did the experience warrant what we witness now.

The problem is that neither HIV or BSE wreaked havoc around the world in mere weeks to months. According to Wikipedia there were 231 cases of BSE worldwide up to 2018. SARS-1 is the regular SARS. SARS-1 during the 2003 outbreak resulted in some 8000 infections and a few hundred deaths. For comparison, SARS-CoV-2 has already caused 200+ million infections worldwide and 4+ million deaths. It's a much more dangerous combination of infectivity and lethality. In a morbid positive way, a highly lethal virus won't spread much because it will kill its host before substantial spread can happen. The biggest danger comes from these intermediately lethal viruses than can spread significantly before wrecking you. We've seen in Italy among other places what happens when it became overwhelming and we couldn't deal with it.

 

It's a balancing act, as you say. One one hand if we hit hard we may be able stay slightly ahead of the curve and maintain control, but at the same time we need cases to counter it.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

Last time i looked at the CFS research there history was  the act of a virus infection that triggered the later symptoms of CFS. They were looking into that vector to understand what was occurring at a cellular level.. Putting C19 damage into the equation would be like including a car running the patient over prior to the virus triggering homeostasis alterations.

Not really, because the virus is exactly what causes that damage. You get perfectly healthy people being completely wrecked due to the effects of the virus. I think it might be hard, at least in the strong to severe cases, to separate CFS symptoms from the lung damage caused by it, but there are experts who know much more about this than I do working on it so I'll just check that whenever they put out something new. I see that there is still a substantial debate over CFS and the relation of Long COVID to it.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

define works.. what the vaccine does is lower the potential of death occurring from C19. You can still catch it, spread low doses of it to others. Low in that they potentially will get ill and spread low doses too but not die. It is a method of herd immunity making C19 no worse than a common cold. 

Works means it lowers the potential of catching it, it reduces the severity of effects you'll experience significantly and it significantly reduces how much you spread it. See the above article on why herd immunity is unlikely for the near future. Also please stop spreading the misinformation that COVID-19 is nothing more than a common cold. This is false and dangerous. The Infection Fatality Rate (IFR) for the flu (0.039%) is much lower than that for COVID-19 (0.65%):

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3410/rr-6

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_5.html (gives some interactive percentage plots)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0 (nice figure with IFR by age estimates)

 

Vaccines will help lower this tremendously, but this and especially herd immuntiy will only work if people go and get the darn thing.

[rockyroller]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:11 AM, tikker said:

Unvaccinated people will certainly carry a higher viral load than vaccinated people.

but that viral load hits a barrier with a vaccinated person, and that is the point of vaccines too. That is part of herd immunity. So vaccinating the mostly non affect with by a full load becomes a question of why?

Wouldn't shipping the excess vaccines to areas where the mortality is going to be high make more medical sense.

 

What you seem to be suggesting is the young who will survive a full load will become incubators for more variants. So why are the Government scientist being frank and telling the media this? I can't see a public outcry if such a statement was made.

 

 

Quote

Police abuse is its own issue has nothing to do with SARS-CoV-2. You can always find a "but what about ...".

 

The Police are following orders and those orders are coming from Governments. If Governments are part of the problem when dealing with C19 then those following orders has a lot to do with the problem.

"Follow the science" was a meaningless meme

In a simplistic term closed indoor zones cause more deaths than open air zones. The Police were used to enforce stay indoor policies and unbelievably other departments were assisting the freedom of a few to travel unrestricted between different locked zones spreading the virus like wildfire.

 

Lastly we can't even trust the mortality statistics when in the case of the UK, just having C19 would have you recorded as a C19 death if some other cause of death occurred.

In practical terms for casual readers this would mean going to hospital and being diagnosed as having C19, then walking out of the hospital and getting subsequently run over whilst crossing the road, you death certificate was automatically entered as a C19 death.

 

 

 

[tikker]

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

but that viral load hits a barrier with a vaccinated person, and that is the point of vaccines too.

Completely true, a vaccinated person will still get infected, but now the body knows how to dispose of it so 1) it won't reproduce as much and 2) there is a much lower chance of spreading it further. What you forget here is that the virus also spreads to unvaccinated people.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

That is part of herd immunity.

Which we can realistically only achieve if people get vaccinated. Natural herd immunity is too slow. The estimates for COVID-19 herd immunity seem to be around 60-70% fully vaccinated. We're only now barely scratching that lower bound in the most vaccinated countries on a national scale. Locally there can still be low ratios of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

So vaccinating the mostly non affect with by a full load becomes a question of why?

I don't understand what you mean with this sentence. If you are referring to young people unlikely to get severe symptoms, they are still great at spreading the virus around when unvaccinated. That is what you want to stop.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

Wouldn't shipping the excess vaccines to areas where the mortality is going to be high make more medical sense.

Mortality will be high. You catching COVID-19 in Spain won't be any different from catching it in Zimbabwe. There will be a difference in medical infracstructure indeed, which is why the WHO is asking countries to postpone the 3rd shot and first focus on getting more vaccines to developing countries.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

What you seem to be suggesting is the young who will survive a full load will become incubators for more variants. So why are the Government scientist being frank and telling the media this? I can't see a public outcry if such a statement was made.

No that's the opposite of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that unvaccinated people are the major incubators for more variants. Their bodies will not stop the virus from replicating and spreading to the same significanlty higher degree as vaccinated people. It is that much higher replication and infection rate among unvaccinated people that significantly increases the risk for a mutation to occur. For example, the Pfizer vaccine seems to be 95% effective in stopping it from reproducing. That means for every 1000 viral entities, 1000 would reproduce and potentially mutate in an unvaccinated person vs. only 50 in a vaccinated person.

 

I can't speak for you government, but ours has happily called out the nation that it's partially their fault we're still in this shit by ignoring rules and regulations and that getting vaccinated will only accelerate the journey to normalcy.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

The Police are following orders and those orders are coming from Governments. If Governments are part of the problem when dealing with C19 then those following orders has a lot to do with the problem.

"Follow the science" was a meaningless meme

In a simplistic term closed indoor zones cause more deaths than open air zones. The Police were used to enforce stay indoor policies and unbelievably other departments were assisting the freedom of a few to travel unrestricted between different locked zones spreading the virus like wildfire.

That's a  one bad apple ruins the entire bunch point of view, which is fine, I can respect your opinion. I disagree with police abuse, but I also believe they mean well in fighting  the pandemic. There is some important context missing about your indoors vs outdoors comparison. It's a completely valid point. However, indoor zones are more likely to cause more infections (not deaths) in the context of contact with people and ventilation. If you stay indoors by yourself or with your family, don't keep every air hole shut for weeks on end and seeing nobody else then there would be a low chance of encountering the virus. If you go to school or something where you are crammed with 100s of others in a small room with insufficient ventilation for this situation and near impossibility of keeping proper distance, then the chances at infection are much higher. Your travel argument is sound. That wildfire spread is exactly why people weren't (aren't) supposed to travel if it can be avoided.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

Lastly we can't even trust the mortality statistics when in the case of the UK, just having C19 would have you recorded as a C19 death if some other cause of death occurred.

In practical terms for casual readers this would mean going to hospital and being diagnosed as having C19, then walking out of the hospital and getting subsequently run over whilst crossing the road, you death certificate was automatically entered as a C19 death.

Many warnings about various databases have been given for this. Particularly, often the public ones record everything and potentially multiple times, for example multiple side-effects will be reported as their own thing even if they are one person. One example was a recent paper in a non-peer reviewd journal claiming the vaccine was killing more people than the virus and we should rethink our strategy. Subsequent investigation showed they were using databases that explicitely said they could NOT be used for the analysis as they did. Most proper peer-reviewd articles and statisitcal analyses take this into account properly, however. The mortality statistics can be trusted.

1 hour ago, rockyroller said:

just having C19 would have you recorded as a C19 death if some other cause of death occurred.

There are guidelines set on how to report COVID-19 deaths, but how it is reported exactly seems to vary from state to state and country to country. Among those guidelines you are not allowed to have recovered from COVID-19 between that and moment of death. Also, if you clearly died due to trauma from the car crash then you are not reported as a COVID-19 death. The subtleties come into play when it is a mixture:

• Say you are driving and COVID-19 suddenly hits you hard, makes you faint and subsequently die in a crash. The immediate cause of death is maybe blunt trauma from the crash, but they underlying cause is a COVID-19 infection.
• Say you have cancer or another dangerous disease and you catch COVID-19, lowering your body's defenses sufficiently for your body to give in and die. You may say oh he died of cancer or <other disease>, but the reason that happend is because you caught COVID-19. The question becomes whether you died because of <other disease> weakening you enough causing COVID-19 to kill you, or if you died because of COVID-19 weakening you enough to let <other disease> kill you. Here in the Netherlands it's the latter.