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In the US, life cycle emissions for EVs are 60-68% lower than gasoline.

poochyena
By poochyena
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Summary

 

Electric cars produce significant less green house emissions compared to gasoline cars when factoring in everything from building the car to its life time run time.

Global-LCA-passenger-cars-fig1-jul2021_0

 

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If you listen to electric vehicle naysayers, switching to EVs is pointless because even if the cars are vastly more efficient than ones that use internal combustion engines—and they are—that doesn't take into account the amount of carbon required to build and then scrap them. Well, rest easy because it's not true. Today in the US market, a medium-sized battery EV already has 60–68 percent lower lifetime carbon emissions than a comparable car with an internal combustion engine. And the gap is only going to increase as we use more renewable electricity.

 

My thoughts

Finally a simple to understand article and graph that shows new electric cars are better than new gasoline cars that I can point to to people who think EVs are over-hyped. Even if EVs got all their electricity from coal power plants, it would be more efficient than gasoline cars. There is a reason everyone doesn't power their homes with gas generators. As we add more green power to the power grid, and as more people add solar to their homes, charging their cars at home, the fewer emissions there will be. Buying a new gas car in 2021, outside of very niche applications where you regularly drive 200+ miles a day, is a mistake.

 

Sources

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/electric-cars-have-much-lower-life-cycle-emissions-new-study-confirms/

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▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
12 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

INB4 I aint never drive no prius cuz it don't make the sound of my CUMMINS 12v dip dip feller 

My old 6.9 IDI says you can't touch it with a 6 cylinder sound.

RIP Greenpeace

 

On an on topic note, if EVs were easily available in Alaska and I could get something that would hold up to our winters, I'd be all over it (hint hint Tesla or Ford)

I'm not actually trying to be as grumpy as it seems.

I will find your mentions of Ikea or Gnome and I will /s post. 

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16 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Would be cool to see how hydrogen cars compare in this chart.

I can't help but wonder how practical hydrogen is for most consumers. I live close to a major university and they have a hydrogen fuel pump there, but for the vast majority of people the infrastructure just isn't there.

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Just now, JLO64 said:

I can't help but wonder how practical hydrogen is for most consumers. I live close to a major university and they have a hydrogen fuel pump there, but for the vast majority of consumers the infrastructure just isn't there.

Hydrogen makes way for sense for public transit. 

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Just now, Zodiark1593 said:

Hydrogen makes way for sense for public transit. 

It makes sense for a lot of commercial vehicles. BEV is probably the way private cars will go, but the big stuff, especially anything that has to cover 100s of miles a day, probably going to be hydrogen.

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2 minutes ago, JLO64 said:

but for the vast majority of consumers the infrastructure just isn't there.

Just like there wasn't any infrastructure for electric cars in the beginning.

It's a matter of what is more profitable and more popular. Hydrogen still leaves a bitter taste in people's mouth because of the Hindenburg.

So I'm sure it could be done, but it's probably just easier to go for electric cars at this point.

But I hope that the investment in hydrogen fuel cells and transportation will continue. 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, JLO64 said:

I can't help but wonder how practical hydrogen is for most consumers. I live close to a major university and they have a hydrogen fuel pump there, but for the vast majority of people the infrastructure just isn't there.

The issue right now is that hydrogen generation is quite limited not because we cannot make more but because there is just not much demand thus not much is being made. There is a first gen home hydrogen generator now on the market very much so first gen tech but the demand is coming so there is some tech coming too.

 

 

Another big thing with hydrogen other than it just being made with water and electricity (yes oversimplification I know) is that you can quickly fuel up your vehicle and go compared to electric which take a good while.

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8 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Hydrogen makes way for sense for public transit. 

Excitingly, this doesn't seem too far off.

 

I especially love hydrogen for public transport considering how much of a pain in the ass it is to get companies/governments to electrify railways, whether by third rail or overhead catenaries.

It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted/misread your topic and/or question. This happens more often than I care to admit. Apologies in advance.

 

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1 minute ago, Senzelian said:

Just like there wasn't any infrastructure for electric cars in the beginning.

It's a matter of what is more profitable and more popular. Hydrogen still leaves a bitter taste in people's mouth because of the Hindenburg.

So I'm sure it could be done, but it's probably just easier to go for electric cars at this point.

But I hope that the investment in hydrogen fuel cells and transportation will continue. 

I feel like electric will be the middle ground and we'll shift to hydrogen electric hybrids pretty soon (next 5 years) since there is now one home hydrogen generator that exists (not greatly efficient and whatnot but ya know first gen stuff) and there is a push coming as well the first couple generations of electric cars is now down for a battery replacement and that is now a big extra cost people start to see so they want something more permanent as most people use their car for 10years+ and even after that car often lives on for another decade with a new owner.

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1 minute ago, Senzelian said:

Just like there wasn't any infrastructure for electric cars in the beginning.

Thing is, with charging at home, there doesn't NEED to be much infrastructure, at least for home owners. And there is already a lot of infrastructure around for it, even if lower voltage/slower charging. With hydrogen, you rely completely on there being infrastructure out there, much like gas cars. It just seems more expensive to build and less convenient for consumers and governments.

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41 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Summary

 

Electric cars produce significant less green house emissions compared to gasoline cars when factoring in everything from building the car to its life time run time.

Global-LCA-passenger-cars-fig1-jul2021_0

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

Finally a simple to understand article and graph that shows new electric cars are better than new gasoline cars that I can point to to people who think EVs are over-hyped. Even if EVs got all their electricity from coal power plants, it would be more efficient than gasoline cars. There is a reason everyone doesn't power their homes with gas generators. As we add more green power to the power grid, and as more people add solar to their homes, charging their cars at home, the fewer emissions there will be. Buying a new gas car in 2021, outside of very niche applications where you regularly drive 200+ miles a day, is a mistake.

 

Sources

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/electric-cars-have-much-lower-life-cycle-emissions-new-study-confirms/

lol no thanks. ill keep driving diesel till i can no longer do so. 
there is one thing you EV supporters seem to forget. Power usage. Imagine if all of europe all of the sudden went EV. there wouldnt be enough power to supply everything and we would have a dark age. And heck even as the users of EV is rising here in europe countries are already having issues upkeeping the powernet. Heck the EU wants to add chargers every 15km along highways. Thats gonna be fun for the electric net as well. oh and lets not forget the roooooows of people needing to wait to charge their car. 

sorry but nah. till they fix every little issue with EV ill not buy them. Any diesel can still waay outrange an ev. And be more efficient. and cost me less per km i make. Come back to me when ev cars can make 1200km and cost 30k with enough power and so fast charging that it only takes 1 minute to 2 minutes max. 

and yes. the environment can get my middlefinger. especially since countries expect my tiny country of the netherlands to be leading the pack in climate neutrality. f that. 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

engine sounds are fun. fite me

My 4 cyilinder on my volvo v70 d3 from 2016 would like to differ.. Might aswell get a tesla at this point because this sewing sound really doesnt cut it..

 

Tempted to get a Miata or a 330D just to HEAR actual sounds from a car. (Volvo 850 with 5 cylinders was fun too, until the block cracked 😢)

 

Ontopic tho: I wonder how charging at home would really affect me if i go for an electric vehicle, norway's charging network now is WAY TOO CROWDED.. And thats basicly just the tesla network.. And now they want to open it to everyone? Dear god..

Edited by MultiGamerClub
*ontopic, not ontop lol.

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I also drive a volvo as one does being norwegian haha, a volvo v70 d3 from 2016.

Reliability was a key thing and its my second car, working pretty well for its 6 years age xD

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Posted
31 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Thing is, with charging at home, there doesn't NEED to be much infrastructure, at least for home owners. And there is already a lot of infrastructure around for it, even if lower voltage/slower charging. With hydrogen, you rely completely on there being infrastructure out there, much like gas cars. It just seems more expensive to build and less convenient for consumers and governments.

With growing numbers in electric cars, the need for more chargers outside of homes will grow as well.

Keep in mind that a electric car charger won't be able to "fill up" as many cars as one gas pump in the same amount of time, which in return will require more chargers.

 

Interestingly enough I just found a masters thesis showing the necessary work that needs to be done to convert all gas stations at the A96 (Autobahn 96 (highway)) to electric charging stations. So this excludes the benefit of being able to charge at home.

According to this thesis it would require 18 nuclear power plants of the powerplant "Grohnde" to power the current traffic just on that one Autobahn.

The Autobahn 96 isn't even that large or particular outstanding in terms of its traffic.

Of course, who knows how accurate this is, especially considering it came out in 2018, but interesting nontheless.

https://opus.fhv.at/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/2773/file/Masterarbeit_Reitmair.pdf

 

Edit:
Here, so you can get an idea of how large the A96 is. Next to it on the right is Munich (München).
image.thumb.png.d4b1d3a09b2454cdb0823786cdd06b19.png

 

 

18x this for one highway: 🤨
image.png.125a9edd932fe3d4bce9792046a11b2b.png

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Would be cool to see how hydrogen cars compare in this chart.

Terribly, Hydrogen production is extremely high energy demand so in most cases is a lifecycle net loss of energy to produce it than you get from using it. So unless you use 100% renewable energy in it's production it's a self defeating energy sink hole.

 

Better to improve fuel cell technology that doesn't need pure Hydrogen.

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Oh well compared to american cars almost everything is less carbon emitting

I still dont get my head around how the gas mileage of the usual cars im the us is for anyone acceptable...

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Am I the only one noticing that the chart shows fuel consumed by the ICE over the life but shows no electricity used by the BEV over the life? I hate to be that person, but this looks like a propaganda piece. I understand it is very difficult to know how much emissions it will actually cost to operate an electric car given the many different sources of electricity but why is that not in their chart. If they want to get people on board with electrics, they need to not make such an easy mistake.

 

FYI, I'm all for Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars. The benefits of electrics without the long waits for charging or like where I live, the need to own your own home to install a charger that is faster than a basic wall outlet charger.

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1 hour ago, Senzelian said:

Just like there wasn't any infrastructure for electric cars in the beginning.

It's a matter of what is more profitable and more popular. Hydrogen still leaves a bitter taste in people's mouth because of the Hindenburg.

So I'm sure it could be done, but it's probably just easier to go for electric cars at this point.

But I hope that the investment in hydrogen fuel cells and transportation will continue. 

gas and hydro are both flammable, why would someone be afraid of one thing but not the other 🤦‍♂️  

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4 minutes ago, x3x53530 said:

Am I the only one noticing that the chart shows fuel consumed by the ICE over the life but shows no electricity used by the BEV over the life? I hate to be that person, but this looks like a propaganda piece. I understand it is very difficult to know how much emissions it will actually cost to operate an electric car given the many different sources of electricity but why is that not in their chart. If they want to get people on board with electrics, they need to not make such an easy mistake.

 

FYI, I'm all for Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars. The benefits of electrics without the long waits for charging or like where I live, the need to own your own home to install a charger that is faster than a basic wall outlet charger.

It's a study that you're reading a headline about. It's almost assuredly designed to make a headline. They've been doing these studies for 20+ years, actually. You can always attack the weights being used & how they're valuing certain things. Realistically, the emissions differential comes down to the supply lines for manufacturing. If the shipment distances are smaller for one or the other, you get different results. Also, US Electrical Production has generally been on a Net CO2 decline per kW produced, so more recent studies can capitalize upon that.

 

Not that it really matters. These more exist for "moral support" (really, "moral superiority support" if we're being honest). And, as a result, it never actually matters. What matters is the Utility & Functionality of products being sold. EV Fanboys do far more damage to Battery EVs than they actually do improving the technology. At least Tesla understood is about Brand Identity. 

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1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

INB4 I aint never drive no prius cuz it don't make the sound of my CUMMINS 12v dip dip feller 

What?
I dont know what sound priuses  youve seen make its frickign silent (and gets like 45mpg with a shot battery)

I could use some help with this!

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until electic cars are cheap can just be charged by being outside (solar panels that charge the car entirely) i dont think many people care

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@Senzelianthat's about normal. The "normal" person simply doesn't understand the amount of energy used to move cars & trucks around. It's also why the "EV Future" is a good way to end up with the "EV Collapse of 20XX".

 

Battery EVs are a useful but small segment of the transportation market. They're useful for people with Suburban homes with garages and a commute of less than 40 miles/70km. There's a reason Tesla sells luxury mid-sized cars. That's the market for Battery EVs passenger cars. There's definitely some serious space for Local Haul Battery EV trucks and some Super cars. But that's about the extent of the utility for Battery EVs.

 

Reality is that true Hybrids are the actual medium term future. Batteries will not, at least in our life times, really approach the energy density of chemical fuels, and they'll never overcome the storage advantage. There's a whole long, separate discussion about why Hybrids went sideways for a long time, but that's still where things will head. 

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8 minutes ago, adarw said:

until electic cars are cheap can just be charged by being outside (solar panels that charge the car entirely) i dont think many people care

Solar Panels on a car itself will never charge a car. The physics on that is pretty clear.

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1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Solar Panels on a car itself will never charge a car. The physics on that is pretty clear.

yea lol but until its green and charges faster i dont think many people want one, espicaly if they go on long trips

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