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In an NYT investigative report Apple has essentially given up the keys to its kingdom in China.

Message added by LogicalDrm,

This thread has been cleaned once. No politics, or this will be locked.

Summary

Because the majority of the Apple supply chain originates from China, Apple has given into increasingly larger demands to the Chinese gov't. They include holding all the data in China, building a system to skirt American laws for data, building a datacentre in China that is managed by a third party, giving up control of the Chinese data to said third party, allowing Chinese gov't access to the data, removing the Made by Apple in California branding on the back of its phones, setting up a system to block specific apps based on Chinese gov't requests (in the 10 thousands), which includes any apps that are critical of the Communist gov't in China, and building a separate bureaucracy to monitor apps inside of Apple which in the past has fired employees when the Chinese gov't complains, weakening security keys for data storage, and handing over the encryption keys to Chinese data to Chinese authorities. This is in stark contrast to the behavior of Apple in the rest of the world. China accounts for 1/5th of all sales in Apple.

 

Quotes

Quote

Mr. Cook often talks about Apple’s commitment to civil liberties and privacy. But to stay on the right side of Chinese regulators, his company has put the data of its Chinese customers at risk and has aided government censorship in the Chinese version of its App Store. After Chinese employees complained, it even dropped the “Designed by Apple in California” slogan from the backs of iPhones.

Quote

The company has also helped China spread its view of the world. Chinese iPhones censor the emoji of the Taiwanese flag, and their maps suggest Taiwan is part of China. For a time, simply typing the word “Taiwan” could make an iPhone crash, according to Patrick Wardle, a former hacker at the National Security Agency.

My thoughts

While it is not much of a surprise that this is happening, this hasn't been as well documented specifically for Apple in any other story. Without getting into political topics the amount of customization that is going on here is staggering. Given the volume of interference in other countries political and electoral affairs and state sponsored hacking that China does ongoing (like other big powers) it is a little surprising that Apple has given in the way that it has and shows how dependent on China Apple and other tech players have become. This is a little reminiscent of the whole Coca-cola / fanta thing that occurred during the second world war because of the bad optics of doing business in Germany during that time.

 

Sources

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html

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I just hope the China side of things is completely separate. Especialy the encryption keys. If they are for ALL iDevices sold everywhere and not just the ones sold in China... Then what was the point of them refusing to unlock the iphone of a criminal for the FBI ?

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10 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

I just hope the China side of things is completely separate. Especialy the encryption keys. If they are for ALL iDevices sold everywhere and not just the ones sold in China... Then what was the point of them refusing to unlock the iphone of a criminal for the FBI ?

You know that part during iOS setup where you specify the Country you live in? That's probably the point in which the phone is encrypted with an escrowed key specific to that nation. Or, I would hope. 

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Posted (edited)

"we are apple and we do what we want!"

Accepting our focus on privacy*

(excluding everyone that shouldn't have it and then china shows up with 10bill to force add localization apps on chinese users)

< removed by moderation >

And not forget amazons involvement in china too

Edited by LogicalDrm
Political trolling
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11 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

I just hope the China side of things is completely separate

even if it was, i don't think that should really be a defense.

 

Given how hard they push the privacy angle, to give up ANY control to china clearly shows they they only care about privacy until there is enough pressure on them from someone with more power.

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Judge the product by its own merits, not by the Company that created it.

 

Don't dilute <good thing> by always trying to focus on, and drag conversation back to, <bad thing>.

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1 hour ago, WillyW said:

Summary

Because the majority of the Apple supply chain originates from China, Apple has given into increasingly larger demands to the Chinese gov't. They include holding all the data in China, building a system to skirt American laws for data, building a datacentre in China that is managed by a third party, giving up control of the Chinese data to said third party, allowing Chinese gov't access to the data,

The EU and Russia already have rules restricting their citizens' data from being sent outside their borders. And US laws don't apply in countries that aren't the US.

 

When operating in another country, a company has to follow that country's laws. Apple wouldn't get a say in whether they abide by what the Chinese government requires: They either conform to the local law where they're doing business, or they get kicked-out of the country (and likely have their in-country assets seized). They don't have any power to defy a foreign government regarding how they may operate in their country, just as Apple doesn't to defy the US government concerning Apple's business operations in the US.

 

EU’s Top Court Restricts Personal-Data Transfers to U.S., Citing Surveillance Concerns

Quote

Thousands of companies will face restrictions on storing information about European Union residents on U.S. servers, after the bloc’s top court ruled that such transfers exposed Europeans to American government surveillance without “actionable rights” to challenge it.

 

The surprise ruling Thursday from the European Court of Justice, which invalidates a widely used EU-U.S. data-transfer agreement known as Privacy Shield, is a victory for privacy activists who have long said the U.S.’s surveillance practices should make it ineligible to store European data.

 

GDPR – Transfer of personal data from the European Union to Third Countries.

Quote

The transfer of personal data from the EEA to third countries and permits such transfer only on three exemptions namely:

An adequacy decision by the European Commission (Art 45);
The transfer takes place after having appropriate safeguards (Art 46 and 47);
Derogations apply (Art 49)

 

Apple will reportedly store Russian user data locally, possibly decrypt on request

Quote

Laws in Russia have mandated since 2014 that Apple store Russian citizens’ user data within the country, but the company has apparently dodged the requirement — until now. According to a Foreign Policy report (via AppleInsider), Russia’s telecommunications and media agency Roskomnadzor has confirmed that Apple will comply with the local data storage law, which appears to have major implications for the company’s privacy initiatives.

 

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16 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The EU and Russia already require all data pertaining to their citizens to remain within their borders and not be sent abroad. US laws on data don't apply in other countries.

How does this work if a eu citizen signs up for an us / otherwise foreign service, then the servers have to be in eu, but what if said provider doesn't have a server in eu? or if the eu citizen purposefully signs up to a non eu server? 

 

in other words something like bilibili is illegal in eu? doubt they have servers here, or maybe thats the "overseas connection" option (not sure what that even does lol)

 

ARTPOP

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Hahaha hypocrites. Apple doesn't give a shit about privacy or security unless they can make money off of it

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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12 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

How does this work if a eu citizen signs up for an us / otherwise foreign service, then the servers have to be in eu, but what if said provider doesn't have a server in eu? or if the eu citizen purposefully signs up to a non eu server? 

 

in other words something like bilibili is illegal in eu? doubt they have servers here, or maybe thats the "overseas connection" option (not sure what that even does lol)

I edited-in some links to my previous post, which explain under what circumstances personal data can be shared with select countries and companies outside the EU.

 

I don't know how it all works. Some companies, like Microsoft (and I'd guess Facebook, Twitter, and Google), process user data in the EU.

 

I was sure that Microsoft was doing that for some years already. But this article says Microsoft is aiming for that goal by the end of 2022:

 

Microsoft to store European data in EU instead of US by end of 2022

Quote

In July, the European Court of Justice shot down a system that would have allowed European companies to transfer their data to the United States.

 

Microsoft's Chief Privacy Officer: Assuring Customers About Cross-Border Data Flows

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8 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Hahaha hypocrites. Apple doesn't give a shit about privacy or security unless they can make money off of it

I think they do care about privacy and do many things to insure privacy but what can they do in this case? Its either they comply or they get kicked out of China. I don't blame them for it as its simply comply with the local laws and has nothing to do with what happens outside of China. You still get all the security and privacy that Apple strives for outside of China so I honestly don't care to much about what they are doing. Would it be nice if this didn't have to happen? Yeah probably but inevitably that isn't the world we live in so we should accept reality as it is. Its honestly surprising just how many customizations were made on apples part to comply. I do wonder how difficult that is for them and what sort of methods are put in place to ensure that it stays within China and that all Apple products in China comply. I wonder if there is a scenario where people could circumvent these measures buy buying apple products from outside China and making modifications. 

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1 hour ago, WillyW said:

But to stay on the right side of Chinese regulators, his company has put the data of its Chinese customers at risk

Put the data at risk? Seems like just a bit of an understatement… If you store data in a way that someone can potentially exploit and access, that is putting data at risk. If you straight up hand over the data to another company/government, I don’t think put the data “at risk” quite describes it.

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13 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

I don't know how it all works.

I mean it seems complicated even for eu standards...

Dont get me wrong im not against the idea, but it seems all very broadly, one size fits all formulated with no regards to possible consequences.

 

But, it seems theres a cop out although im not sure i understand it either.

This paragraph:

"Transfer of Personal Data under Derogations"

 

That seems to say if citizen is explicitly told about the "risks" they are still allowed to store personal  data on foreign servers?

 

I mean i always thought my data belongs to me, now it almost sounds it belongs to the eu... a bit confusing 🤷‍♀️

 

ARTPOP

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22 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I mean it seems complicated even for eu standards...

Dont get me wrong im not against the idea, but it seems all very broadly, one size fits all formulated with no regards to possible consequences.

 

But, it seems theres a cop out although im not sure i understand it either.

This paragraph:

"Transfer of Personal Data under Derogations"

 

That seems to say if citizen is explicitly told about the "risks" they are still allowed to store personal  data on foreign servers?

 

I mean i always thought my data belongs to me, now it almost sounds it belongs to the eu... a bit confusing 🤷‍♀️

 

According to the WSJ article, data was being sent from the EU to the US via the Privacy Shield exemption. But now that's been struck-down by the EU's Court of Justice. If a simple disclaimer and user-acceptance sufficed, I guess there wouldn't be any problem for US businesses. But it sounds like the decision is affecting them. So, the meaning or relevance of Derogations might not be that simple. But I don't know.

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46 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

get kicked out of China

if the y actually believed in half of what they advocated, they'd let themselves get kicked out of china and use it as a marketing prop

"We at Apple give so much focus to privacy, we took a great Courage to say "NO" to the CCP's human right violations"

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I find the irony thick enough to cut with a butter knife. Surely USA has not forgotten its own police force, policymakers, and etc are frequently bought over by money - all through lobbying system! Why's it surprising that a business that seeks to operate in China won't change its tune to make money? Have we forgotten Microsoft, Dell, HP, and so much more?

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3 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

if the y actually believed in half of what they advocated, they'd let themselves get kicked out of china and use it as a marketing prop

"We at Apple give so much focus to privacy, we took a great Courage to say "NO" to the CCP's human right violations"

You realize that Apple products are produced in large part in China. Granted this is Foxconn that is building the devices but the fact still remains that Apple already has a big connection with China. Also China is an incredibly big market so to not sell to China would be a disservice to shareholders which ultimately is what usually drives companies. I would also say that Apple not selling in China would do absolutely nothing but deprive people of China the option to buy Apple products. It's not like China would change their laws simply because one company chooses to not sell their products in China. I mean honestly at this point China has a large amount of companies that are basically replacements for things that aren't allowed in China. It actually kinda frightening how they have been able to simply build companies to replace western alternatives. I think there final motive is to no longer rely on any foreign products or companies and be self sufficient. I know they were trying to do that in the cpu space and fab space but that seems like it might be further away. 

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1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

You realize that Apple products are produced in large part in China. Granted this is Foxconn that is building the devices but the fact still remains that Apple already has a big connection with China. Also China is an incredibly big market so to not sell to China would be a disservice to shareholders which ultimately is what usually drives companies. I would also say that Apple not selling in China would do absolutely nothing but deprive people of China the option to buy Apple products. It's not like China would change their laws simply because one company chooses to not sell their products in China. I mean honestly at this point China has a large amount of companies that are basically replacements for things that aren't allowed in China. It actually kinda frightening how they have been able to simply build companies to replace western alternatives. I think there final motive is to no longer rely on any foreign products or companies and be self sufficient. I know they were trying to do that in the cpu space and fab space but that seems like it might be further away. 

And if apple believed half the words they throw in the western market, they would drop China at the drop of a hat. But they don't, it's all empty words and marketing speech.

One day I will be able to play Monster Hunter Frontier in French/Italian/English on my PC, it's just a matter of time... 4 5 6 7 8 9 years later: It's finally coming!!!

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Holy cow this is pretty bad not I'm actually kinda surprised at how bad. Like Im not surprised China has control of parts of Apple I just wasn't expecting this level of it. Although I don't know why I'm surprised it's China and Apple is just a greedy little company that likes to pretend their morally superior.

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7 hours ago, Tenelia said:

I find the irony thick enough to cut with a butter knife. Surely USA has not forgotten its own police force, policymakers, and etc are frequently bought over by money - all through lobbying system! Why's it surprising that a business that seeks to operate in China won't change its tune to make money? Have we forgotten Microsoft, Dell, HP, and so much more?

At the end of the day "loyalty is a paycheck away".

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This is very disappointing... Hopefully, with Apple starting to move more and more of their supply chain out of China, they will soon be harder on Chinese demands, ideally just like in the rest of the world!

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*** Thread cleaned ***

 

No politics rule is in place still. Keep the discussion about tech, not governments policies about human rights etc.

^^^^ That's my post ^^^^
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vvvv Who's there? vvvv

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@SlidewaysZ Apple is a publicly traded company. They have a legal responsibility to their shareholders to make as much money as possibble and if they don't they can find themselves on the wrong end of a court case. And this doesn't just apply to staying in a big market like china by complying with the Chinese governments requests. If you see any publicly traded company doing anything you consider morally dubious, ask yourself "is it legal and does it make them more money". If the answers to both of those are yes they're going to do it regardless of what any individual or group thereof in the company thinks about it. There's some wiggle room when dealing with lower level stuff, Shareholders aren't going to start a court case unless a lot of money is on the line, but big decisions with major affects on profit margins, it's allways a complication.

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9 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

And if apple believed half the words they throw in the western market, they would drop China at the drop of a hat. But they don't, it's all empty words and marketing speech.

Again I would have to say that they wouldn't. Let me ask you this. What does Apple accomplish by dropping out of the chinese market? Most likely nothing but lower revenue. Its not like China would change anything. So might as well comply and provide Apple products for chinese citizens. I mean to be fair if anything it would suck if chinese citizens weren't allowed Apple products even if they wanted to. They would be basically removing another option for them and I would argue that by dropping out of the chinese market they would do more harm than good to the chinese citizens. 

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1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

What does Apple accomplish by dropping out of the chinese market?

actually stand behind their own words. Instead of just playing an act and putting up a facade for one side of the world.

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

I mean to be fair if anything it would suck if chinese citizens weren't allowed Apple products even if they wanted to

they already miss on out plenty. This is they want it to stay, let them have it. If they want change, well...

 

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Its not like China would change anything

It wonìt. Still better than being an accomplice to the CCP's crimes.

 

 

One day I will be able to play Monster Hunter Frontier in French/Italian/English on my PC, it's just a matter of time... 4 5 6 7 8 9 years later: It's finally coming!!!

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Did anyone honestly expect anything different from Apple, or another company? When you enter into a new market you have to play by that market's rules.

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