Not all AM4 mobos will support all AM4 CPUs

[porina]

Quote

By having a socket and platform that has a long life span, in order to support every processor, the BIOS has to contain all the microcode required for those processors. All of it. This can cause problems, such as the problems that some motherboard manufacturers are facing today.

 

During Computex, several manufacturers told us one of two things: either they would be dropping support for Bristol Ridge processors on some systems, or they have had to increase the size of the BIOS chip in order to retain support.

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12971/amd-bios-limitations-bristol-ridge-dropped-from-certain-motherboards

 

Some motherboard makers are running into limits in the size of bios they can support. With more AM4 CPUs coming out, they need to store more microcode, and it has reached the point where they have run out on certain models. For existing mobos out there, they have to choose what CPUs to support, and Bristol Ridge is first in the firing line. Looking forward, new designs will have to do one of three things: 1, use a higher capacity chip for the bios. Apparently doubling the size is more than double the cost, so this could hit low end boards in particular. 2, use more than one chip, but you're still increasing cost here. 3, strip out features or other support. Maybe acceptable on low end boards, and higher end boards will feel less impact from more costly components. This isn't AMDs "fault", as they are still delivering on back/forward compatibility they promised. Managing this will be an extra headache for mobo manufactures though... it will be a balancing act between price and features, as always. Chances are, if you stick to mainstream CPUs on mainstream mobos, this wont be a problem people are likely to encounter. If you're doing something a bit different, best double check that compatibility list before you buy.

 

 

[Jurrunio]

Cant AMD just support BIOS flashback (no CPU needed) with a new chipset? So people can just flash in the BIOS with the right support any time they want.

[NelizMastr]

3 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Cant AMD just support BIOS flashback (no CPU needed) with a new chipset? So people can just flash in the BIOS with the right support any time they want.

That's not something for AMD to decide. AMD doesn't make the BIOS, they only supply the code. Board manufacturers need to implement what you're suggesting. 

[Princess Luna]

Have to be naive if you ever took their AM4 support deal to the heart... obviously some limitation such as this would come to be.

[WereCat]

What about more boards with dual BIOS?

One could be "Legacy" for 1st and 2nd gen Zen and the other one for 3rd gen Zen+

[Jurrunio]

2 minutes ago, WereCat said:

One could be "Legacy" for 1st and 2nd gen Zen and the other one for 3rd gen Zen+

That's at the cost of being not able to recover from a bad BIOS flash though.

 

conclusion: Make boards with 3 or more BIOS chips.

[MoonSpot]

Question.  Whats stopping them from releasing 2 different BIOSes(legacy and GenNext) and having the end user choose which to populate their board with?

Get the feeling that the mobo guys are more interested in dropping support to save development than anything else, but that might be my intel tinfoil hat speaking.

Anyways, does seem really soon to have this sort of issue already.  We're a whole 2 years in and have 2 more yet to come.

[ignaloidas]

The cost of the whole board shouldn't double, just the price of BIOS chip should double, and the price is ridiculously small even when buying individually (4$). It's a matter of implementation, but I think it shouldn't make motherboard prices higher, just a tad bigger for a bit(10$ would be my guess).

[DeScruff]

Just curious... Why is it a big ordeal now to support multiple generations i n a motherboard when if I recall you could stick any of the AM3 CPUs into an AM2+ motherboard perfectly fine.

Or am I remembering wrong?

[ravenshrike]

10 minutes ago, ignaloidas said:

The cost of the whole board shouldn't double, just the price of BIOS chip should double, and the price is ridiculously small even when buying individually (4$). It's a matter of implementation, but I think it shouldn't make motherboard prices higher, just a tad bigger for a bit(10$ would be my guess).

Which at the lowest end boards under discussion is an issue. You're looking at 50-80 dollars total cost for the motherboard, and that $10 extra from Product B only gets you expanded compatibility, which the vast majority of people won't actually need. So it'll be closer to 20 dollars because of the cost of the redesign and concurrent low product movement.

[Sauron]

25 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Have to be naive if you ever took their AM4 support deal to the heart... obviously some limitation such as this would come to be.

This isn't AMD's fault though and AM3/+ never had this problem. Motherboard manufacturers clearly underestimated the potential of Ryzen. The fix is absolutely trivial for something like this, a larger EEPROM chip would cost pennies to implement. Another easy solution is to release separate BIOS versions that support different chips - as long as they all support the dummy chip AMD sends out for bios updates that wouldn't be a problem.

[goodtofufriday]

39 minutes ago, porina said:

1, use a higher capacity chip for the bios. Apparently doubling the size is more than double the cost, so this could hit low end boards in particular.

 

2, use more than one chip, but you're still increasing cost here.

Larger Eeproms cost 1 cent for this use case. 

 

Other than current boards needs to choose, this is a non-issue going forward.

[Princess Luna]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

.

It is AMD fault for misleading marketing personally speaking given they regulate what the partners do with their technology, if AMD truly wanted every AM4 motherboard to retain the full compatibility they should have, much like nVidia has no trouble doing, set rules on how the motherboards could be manufactured.

 

They did wrong by leaving it entirely to the partners liking on how to manufacture the motherboards and now their promise is at stake, every one is to blame including AMD.

[Sauron]

Just now, Princess Cadence said:

It is AMD fault for misleading marketing personally speaking given they regulate what the partners do with their technology, if AMD truly wanted every AM4 motherboard to retain the full compatibility they should have, much like nVidia has no trouble doing, set rules on how the motherboards could be manufactured.

That's not their way of doing it, and the chipsets can work with the new cpus, so no, it's not their fault. They are keeping every promise they made in this respect.

2 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

They did wrong by leaving it entirely to the partners liking on how to manufacture the motherboards and now their promise is at stake, every one is to blame including AMD.

That's how the market works - it's not like Intel is at fault if their cpu has 40 pcie lanes and the motherboard only uses 20 and they can't (and shouldn't imo) force manufacturers to make motherboards that support every single feature. This sort of control stifles the market and forces higher prices for features some people won't ever need.

[GoldenLag]

well. there goes my plan to put a 4000 series processor in my B350 motherboard. hopefully i can at least fit 3000 series

[cj09beira]

7 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

well. there goes my plan to put a 4000 series processor in my B350 motherboard. hopefully i can at least fit 3000 series

i bet you will still be able to do it what might happen is that you will update your bios for the last time and then it wont boot until you put the new cpu in

[Arika]

heh heh

 

#FUCKYOUAMD

[Java]

Damn, I was hoping I could still use my Crosshair VI hero board for Zen 2.

[GoldenLag]

They couldnlimit the amount of CPUs registered by having a Ryzen 3 specific BIOS, a Ryzen 5 and so fourth. That way you can use you old CPU with the latest BIOS.

[GoldenLag]

Just now, Java said:

Damn, I was hoping I could still use my Crosshair VI hero board for Zen 2.

Thats a Crosshair 6 mobo. You probably dont have to worry.

[porina]

1 hour ago, goodtofufriday said:

Larger Eeproms cost 1 cent for this use case. 

I don't have personal experience of volume pricing for these parts. The thing is, even if it is only some number of cents on the BOM cost, it doesn't mean the end product goes up (effectively) by the same amount. Retail pricing is magnified up relative to BOM cost, so cents can turn into dollars.

[I-r0k]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

This isn't AMD's fault though and AM3/+ never had this problem. Motherboard manufacturers clearly underestimated the potential of Ryzen. The fix is absolutely trivial for something like this, a larger EEPROM chip would cost pennies to implement. Another easy solution is to release separate BIOS versions that support different chips - as long as they all support the dummy chip AMD sends out for bios updates that wouldn't be a problem.

Yea, they thought too lowly of Ryzen.

 

[mariushm]

HIgh capacity bios chips that are used these days (128 mbit, 256 mbit) aren't that cheap... they're not plain eeprom, they're based on nand flash most often.

 

Basically, a 256 mbit bios chip can cost as much as 3-4$ if you buy just 1 at retail ... if you buy 5k-10k at a time, it could be as low as 50-75 cents each.

 

and you can't just use the shittiest quality chips, you don't want boards returned to rma or complaints from customers due to corrupt bioses and having to reflash them.

 

I guess they could make smarter bioses, and use some more advanced techniques like compressing stuff inside the bios, or using lower quality pictures for the "skin" of the bios etc

 

[BuckGup]

2 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

Have to be naive if you ever took their AM4 support deal to the heart... obviously some limitation such as this would come to be.

Except is the board makers not AMD

[Jito463]

1 hour ago, Sierra Fox said:

heh heh

 

#****YOUAMD

Yes, because AMD is obviously to blame for the MoBo manufacturers screwing up.