UPDATE: NVIDIA backtracks - Hardware Unboxed blacklisted from receiving GeForce FE review samples over “focus on rasterization over ray-tracing”

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, YourRandomForumGuy said:

I feel like NVIDIA is a big enough company that they know what is right and what is wrong... this move feels like its taken by the marketing or executive dept. and not engineers like Jensen as he has done enough to increase competition... not that I love NVIDIA and their scummy moves just that they improved performance in ampere without really any competition or as LTT's announcement reaction says that they are scares consoles I don't think its consoles I think they started getting scared that with consoles if AMD can be so competitive they surely have something bigger and badder for the PC.

Nvidia is one of the shadiest companies around. But a lot of that is that they're paranoid as a function of company culture. Historically, however, they've been a lot smarter than this. Nothing ever gets back looking bad on them because there is enough layers between. This is quite the impressive self-own. 

 

But the real problem is still that now every outlet with FE cards is officially an "Nvidia shill". How they can defend against the charge?

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

You've failed to understand my point.

I got your point. You just can't seem to understand what this decision does. Nvidia crossed the Rubicon.

[Senzelian]

10 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

You just can't seem to understand what this decision does.

The fact that you say this shows that you didn't get my point.

[D13H4RD]

I think the point Senz was making was just in regards to NVIDIA refusing to provide review samples of FE cards at all. They're well within their right to not provide samples to reviewers for whatever reason. 

 

That said, in this case, said reason opens up a huge can of worms, something that NVIDIA will find very difficult to seal up. 

[porina]

I had to look back at my previous post in this thread, now that I've seen WAN show and there is more information now. With the update information I partially agree with Linus, but not entirely. I still think, if you really want true independence between "reviewers" and manufacturers, is to break the direct relationship between them. As long as there is any direct transaction between them, there will always be the potential for this to happen, regardless if it does or not. That could work more easily than you think, because if it applies to everyone, there remains a level playing field. So for example, everyone would have to go through AIBs, not directly with AMD/Intel/nvidia.

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

On a technicality, NVIDIA is free to do whatever it deems fit as it's their product and they set the terms. There are indeed ethical can of worms here especially for a situation like this, but technically, they are allowed to do so. 

 

However, I don't think they quite expected this sort of response. That or they knew what they were getting into but chose to do it anyhow for whichever reason. 

yes, but that rises the question can you call a review that's based on the condition of having a "free" "review sample" that apparently comes with certain conditions "unbiased"? 

 

I think not, those should be clearly labeled as "advertising" because that's what they arguably are *regardless* of the intentions of the "reviewer". 

 

 

[Moonzy]

so after this fiasco, whoever still "reviews" the FE card on day 1 is basically nvidia approved messengers

 

noice, good to know

/s

moving to AIB cards isnt really an option either because we all know how tightly nvidia grips their "partners"

[Tristerin]

Interestingly enough, as of reading this I am now subscribing to Hardware Unboxed.

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, Taf the Ghost said:

But the real problem is still that now every outlet with FE cards is officially an "Nvidia shill". How they can defend against the charge?

Based on Linus's reviews towards the AMD 6000 cards, I thought he was a nvidia shill before this even happened. Just watch the most recent AMD one, the most viewed part of almost any video on youtube was bashing AMD on bad RT performance after one game of good performance, then once he has convinced everyone not to buy it he then goes on proving how it could compete again against the 3090 considering the price tag.

 

Also getting a FE card doesn't mean they are a shill, it means they equally focus on RT like Linus has. Which after quickly looking threw the 3080 review he didn't even really touch on. Tho who cares about FE, FE's maybe premium parts but that's not what most will buy, AIOs are still freely able to ship samples to reviewers and nothing is stopping them from buying one to review it either.

[Intergalacticbits]

My feelings on this are :

                                     

1 - I love gaming eye candy and I've always preferred Nvidia over AMD because                                                           personally my eyes see a more crisp gaming picture on Nvidia hardware. So I am                                                   for any improvements that will give me more.

 

 2 - If it was me I would send HUB the hardware anyway. Just to get what I would call a                                                  chance at equal air time because they talk so much more about AMD stuff all the                                                    time on there. I like those guys but I don't watch them that much for that reason. The                                                lack of variety of content in contrast to like what I get on LTT causes me to not to watch HUB that                            often because it bores me so much.

 

 

Above all else I need to be entertained at all times. So everyone in this industry no matter what part they play needs to get on that train lol.

                                       

 

[Delicieuxz]

It's good that Hardware Unboxed didn't stay silent about this letter.

 

But what if Nvidia is comfortable writing these letters and sending them out because they're used to the recipients conforming to their requests, or at-least keeping the matter private?

 

And what if they target smaller and up-and-coming channels with these types of efforts because they expect them to be more malleable by conditioning and grooming, as they are seeking to build their audience, access, and clout, and might not always have the kind of experience and assuredness that would make them more confident to push-back or to know that this kind of relationship with a hardware manufacturer isn't normal and a part of the gig?

 

Linus said in the latest WAN show that the letter doesn't sound like the person who wrote it, as Linus knows him to be. Maybe that's because Nvidia know who they can't be that way around and they have different approaches for different tiers of reviewers. Hopefully, there's another explanation.

 

 

I think Linus hit loads of the critical points about the danger and damage the letter represents for the review industry in that WAN episode.

[just_dave]

Damn, Nvidia is a really nasty company, screw them! *checks whether RTX3070 order has shipped yet*

[Nex6]

I'm going to go against the grain here. I was thinking just last week that if I were Nvidia or AMD I wouldn't be giving any free stuff to Hardware Unboxed. I think that all these people (Jayz, Linus and most of the people in this topic) just aren't informed well enough.

 

1. Hardware Unboxed (same as Gamers Nexus) likes to say that they are buying their own stuff to get around big evil companies not sending them requested products. It's one of the purposes of them collecting Patreon money. Nothing against that, but what I don't like is them (again, same as Gamers Nexus) implying that other reviewers are shills. It's only them that don't give in to the pressure.

 

2. Hardware Unboxed has history of going after other youtubers. They have went after Jayz, calling him irresponsible, and - between the lines - incompetent. They have also gone after LTT, saying LTT always gets results that nobody understands and nobody else gets. What exactly is implied by that... I will leave to you to decide. I can't decide whether it's shilling or incompetence because either one seems quite impossible for anyone to claim for LTT. I think these other YT channels, LTT included, have chosen the wrong hill to die on. The most charitable take on this is that he thinks VERY highly of himself, but I think there's more.

 

3. Their monitor reviews I do like, but those are not done by the same guy who does the GPU's / CPU's. So let's talk about these reviews... from my perspective it's not about reviewing a product, it's all about finding ways to crap all over it. The only good thing about it is, that there is absolutely zero discrimination going on, he will crap over every single product that comes his way. He is very creative when he is trying to find fault with a product but if really NOTHING comes to his mind, he will just say that they should have done that before and how they were right to crap all over previous generation. I actually do watch his videos often, just to see where will he find points to criticize this time. It's hilarious.I will especially watch videos of products that are praised everywhere else, because I know I will find the worst possible take on HU channel (I would have checked GN as well, because they are similarly excellent at being the most negative channels on YT, but I can't stay awake listening to GN).

 

3. Why are they doing things I described that way? Because they want to keep showing their allegiance to the "people" over and over again. Their fans are going to be disappointed if they don't hear all the negative stuff and they get confirmation of HU's "neutrality" this way.Their business model brought them a fan base which is expecting to hear negative reviews so that's what they are getting. Now I'm not accusing HU of pretending for the sake of milking Patreon money. I think that he is just naturally inclined to see glass half empty. So it's just happy symbiosis between always negative reviewer and fans that want to hear negative things.

 

Nvidia are right to cut him off, because what's the point if their only interest is to find faults and then keep talking about the perceived faults while completely ignoring all the good things.

 

[GamerDude]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:44 PM, The_Vaccine said:

imo, it won't hurt HU too much. they already receive 3rd party versions but they lose out on day 1 coverage. 

 

 

I think Jay covered this, although nVidia says that Steev of HU can source AIB's for early released cards, AIB's would still have to have their list of reviewers vetted, and Steve of HU has been blacklisted, so he would not be able to get any early released cards (FE's are definitely no go!). Typical of nGreedia, but they'd still sell tons of cards...

 

So glad I'm going balls to the wall on AMD, I have an Sapphire Nitro+ RX 6800 and have ordered an XFX RX 6900XT....nGreedia, screw you!!!

[Delicieuxz]

15 minutes ago, Nex6 said:

Nvidia are right to cut him off, because what's the point if their only interest is to find faults and then keep talking about the perceived faults while completely ignoring all the good things.

[D13H4RD]

58 minutes ago, just_dave said:

Damn, Nvidia is a really nasty company, screw them! *checks whether RTX3070 order has shipped yet*

Pretty much me....unfortunately

[Eigenvektor]

22 minutes ago, Nex6 said:

Nvidia are right to cut him off, because what's the point if their only interest is to find faults and then keep talking about the perceived faults while completely ignoring all the good things.

A review is supposed to be impartial and point out flaws. What's the point otherwise? If you just want a fluff piece you can watch an ad.

 

I've never seen them just point out faults though. In fact I remember in their monthly Q&A they pretty much said they like ray tracing, but it's not something you should go out of your way to get just yet. It is the future, but right now performance cost is too high.

[Lord Vile]

Fuck it, I’m selling my GPU and going all AMD. 

[RejZoR]

Also what's the point of reviews if they all just say the same exact thing. You can watch 10 reviews and they are all the same. I do like those that explore things in different, possibly unusual ways. Doing a standardized rasterizing set and separating RTX and DLSS is one of those things. Because lets be honest here, those 10 RTX and DLSS powered games are by no means an indication of cards performance or capabilities. Like I've said countless times, seeing Shadow of Tomb Raider and Control for billionth time in a review means nothing to me. It's not a game that I play and DLSS in it while delivering great performance uplift, it's just for that game and that game alone. It means NOTHING in any other game. And there are plenty of "other" games. But NVIDIA apparently wants to give people perception that DLSS makes GeForce cards twice as fast as competition across the board where that simply isn't true. It's just for those few select games that are repeatedly being used in GPU reviews and that's it. And if you don't absolutely focus on that they punish you. That's pretty shitty and abusive behavior.

 

Again, if DLSS was something universal that anyone can enable in ANY game and enjoy superior performance and quality nearly identical to reference rasterized image (like for Image Sharpening or DSR features), then I'd actually demand it to be tested in every single game, every single time. Because that would be the new standard for GeForce cards. But you can't possibly demand that with just few games that support it. It's ridiculous. Same for RTX. Even if they only did SSRT (Screen Space RT), I'd say hell yeah, ray traced effects in almost any game? BRING IT ON! I'm doing this with ReShade in old games and they look amazing. Just imagine what insane value that would bring to all games that predate RTX, but could use it at least partially and utilize the RT Cores for it. Coz ReShade only does it through regular raster shaders and is thus slower. If that was an option, I'd also demand it being tested every time, including visual comparison. But that's not the case.

[Lurick]

43 minutes ago, Nex6 said:

-bunch of accusations with no proof-

How about some sources to back up your claims? I've watched them for years and haven't seen any of this crap you accuse them of.

[Nex6]

1 minute ago, Eigenvektor said:

A review is supposed to be impartial and point out flaws. What's the point otherwise? If you just want a fluff piece you can watch an ad.

 

I've never seen them just point out faults though. In fact I remember in their monthly Q&A they pretty much said they like ray tracing, but it's not something you should go out of your way to get just yet. It is the future, but right now performance cost is too high.

Definitely, I don't like to watch ads. But I came to my conclusion way before today. The first time I thought to myself that these guys are negative about every product was months ago. The summary of the product will always be negative as long as he finds any fault at all. Even if the product is objectively quite good. I think it's funny, that in the past they have been accused of being Nvidia shills, would you believe that? Sounds even funnier today.

 

I do want to make it clear, that my argumentation is NOT the same as what Nvidia provided. I think it's just culmination of everything, all the years of "abuse". Nvidia can claim otherwise, but I am certain that this is not based on last couple of reviews. They have been, in my opinion, unreasonably harsh towards RT in the past, they were mocking the entire technology, even though it was pretty clear that it WAS the correct path Nvidia took. And yes, they were mocking that Nvidia even went that way, they thought it was just stupid and insulting that Nvidia wouldn't invest all those resources into more rasterization capacity. They were accusing Nvidia of being anti-consumer because Nvidia made big claims about how "you can't game without RT today"... I mean... it's just a commercial! They have to say something, they have to advertise it. Of course we all know not to trust these companies making big statements.

 

With that said, their monthly Q&A are way better than GPU/CPU reviews, I agree. But I think that the balance is coming because Q&A's are being done by both of them. Steve gets way more cheerful and less cynical when he is not alone. I have never had any objection to any content his colleague is producing.

 

 

[AlwaysFSX]

6 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

I got your point. You just can't seem to understand what this decision does. Nvidia crossed the Rubicon.

This decision has done absolutely nothing in the reviewer space and those who have reviewed FE cards pre-release are not suddenly biased just because they aren't black listed. Reviewing features of new products, especially newer tech in those products is a no brainer. HUB decided not to dedicate more time in their main video (the one that has the most impact) on launch because of apparently their audience. That's their situation and audience to deal with.

 

HUB being blacklisted means absolutely nothing. It's another reviewer that needs to buy cards on their own dime or have sources that can get them cards early, they aren't the first or last and it changes nothing with reviews going forward.

[Nex6]

3 minutes ago, Lurick said:

How about some sources to back up your claims? I've watched them for years and haven't seen any of this crap you accuse them of.

I could find proof for everything I said. Although... why would I? I'd have to spend tons of time going through videos. You don't really expect me to do that, just because you challenged me in a less than polite way?

 

How certain are you that what I wrote is not true? I see you have tons of posts on this forum... how about if I provide you the evidence, you will permanently close your account? No? Well, suggest something else that would motivate me to spend 2 days going through their videos.

 

Which statements do you specifically challenge anyway? Just cutting my entire post won't do it.

[Eigenvektor]

2 minutes ago, Nex6 said:

Definitely, I don't like to watch ads. But I came to my conclusion way before today. The first time I thought to myself that these guys are negative about every product was months ago. The summary of the product will always be negative as long as he finds any fault at all. Even if the product is objectively quite good. I think it's funny, that in the past they have been accused of being Nvidia shills, would you believe that? Sounds even funnier today.

I'd rather have reviewers who are critical and do point out flaws instead of glossing over them. I can then decide whether those flaws matter to me and whether I want to get the product despite them.

 

I don't think cutting them off just because you dislike their reviews is right. We need multiple reviewers with different styles. Diversity matters to get a more realistic picture of the product. I could equally demand we cut of all the reviewers who seem to be gushing like rabid fanboys when a new product comes out. I don't just want to be told how awesome a new product is. That's what benchmark numbers are for. I want to see the flaws that you don't get to see from just looking at benchmarks. I want to hear about personal impressions from different people and not just those who are in Nvidia's favor.

[D13H4RD]

For what it’s worth, I do prefer the content Tim puts out. Love the monitor reviews and all the deep dives. 

 

Not to mention, that ‘stache