UPDATE: NVIDIA backtracks - Hardware Unboxed blacklisted from receiving GeForce FE review samples over “focus on rasterization over ray-tracing”

[The1Dickens]

10 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

You've also failed to understand how damaging Nvidia's Email is. Which is a trend for people that clearly can't grasp large, secondary effects to actions, in this thread.

Seriously, though.

 

Also, the number of people reading 30,000 leagues deep into Hardware Unboxed's comments like "You can tell this comment was meant to be biting and aggressive, because of the angle of the apostrophe on his contractions (but note, not the possessive apostrophes) with how much force he struck the keys" but then turn around and take the nVidia email at face value like "They only said they won't be sending him any of their precious limited samples, I don't see the problem with that. Talk about entitled, sheesh..." is, for lack of a better term, incredible.

[Taf the Ghost]

@MoonzySteve put out an entire video about why he went with a 3950X test bench. The differences at 1440p and 4K are basically non-existent. We were chatting about it in the Discord for a long time. The other reality is that no one has 10900k because Intel basically made very few, while the audience has been buying Ryzen at about a 4:1 rate.

 

The other issue is that 1080p data doesn't matter much until the 1080p cards come up in Q2, by which point Steve will have moved to the 5950X test bench. Which also gives deep and extensive insight in the way Zen2 transitions to Zen3. HUB has always focused on Price/Performance as the key metric (this is consumer information, after all), and the audience is all on Ryzen right now. That's the data that matters.

 

Also, the mid-range market has moved rapidly to 1440p/HFR monitors as they've come down below 500USD.

 

It wasn't some random decision. 

[The1Dickens]

2 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

I might be the only one, because neither Linus not other forum members mentioned it, but there was a part of the email that sounded like an additional threat along those lines to me. Specifically, when they took the time to explicitly state "you should continue to receive AIB cards and pre-release drivers", to me that was some kind of reminder, "hey, we also control those". Like this wasn't it, "we severe ties and you are on your own", but rather "you could still do worse, and we're still monitoring you". After all, they of course control driver access, and they could probably easily "convince" AIBs to ignore HUB...

Jayz mentioned in his video about this that it's purely legalese to cover their asses, but as nVidia still has to approve of who gets the AIB cards, they can effectively also prevent that from happening. You are pretty much spot on with your assessment, it would seem.

[Moonzy]

4 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

while the audience has been buying Ryzen at about a 4:1 rate.

by this logic, they should be benchmarking using the 3600, which is probably the best selling cpu?

if they want to be relatable

 

if anything, they should show both platforms, if there's any disparity between them (ie, if intel performs better in some games, but AMD in others)

but it would probably kill them, so yea i guess i understand why they picked one platform

 

again, it's their review so it's their right to pick whatever platform they wanted.

 

7 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The other issue is that 1080p data doesn't matter much until the 1080p cards come up in Q2, by which point Steve will have moved to the 5950X test bench. Which also gives deep and extensive insight in the way Zen2 transitions to Zen3. HUB has always focused on Price/Performance as the key metric (this is consumer information, after all), and the audience is all on Ryzen right now. That's the data that matters.

 

Also, the mid-range market has moved rapidly to 1440p/HFR monitors as they've come down below 500USD.

aight, agreed.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, The1Dickens said:

Jayz mentioned in his video about this that it's purely legalese to cover their asses, but as nVidia still has to approve of who gets the AIB cards, they can effectively also prevent that from happening. You are pretty much spot on with your assessment, it would seem.

It was very much a Shakedown-type email. That was blatant. What is less clear is who actually wrote it. We're fairly certain this came down from someone above the Global PR head. Might even be under orders from Jensen, but at least at the C-Suite level.

 

Which is hilarious, because HUB has been highly critical of Turing while praising Ampere quite a lot. This is like the one week where this doesn't make a lick of sense. HUB spent most of a 3-part Q&A video set ripping AMD PR for the marketing around the 6800 launch.  Nvidia went Don Corleone over HUB suggesting the 6800 is likely a better long-term GPU than the 3070 because of the VRAM difference.

[WkdPaul]

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

I could find proof for everything I said. Although... why would I? I'd have to spend tons of time going through videos. You don't really expect me to do that, just because you challenged me in a less than polite way?

 

How certain are you that what I wrote is not true? I see you have tons of posts on this forum... how about if I provide you the evidence, you will permanently close your account? No? Well, suggest something else that would motivate me to spend 2 days going through their videos.

 

Which statements do you specifically challenge anyway? Just cutting my entire post won't do it.

I suggest cutting off the disingenuous post, this comes of as rather trollish, if not antagonistic and patronizing.

 

You made statements that your presented as facts, as such, the burden of proof is on you. So if you're challenged on it, it's only fair that you point out where those statements originate. If you can't, then again, that's on you.

[Taf the Ghost]

5 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

by this logic, they should be benchmarking using the 3600, which is probably the best selling cpu?

if they want to be relatable

 

if anything, they should show both platforms, if there's any disparity between them (ie, if intel performs better in some games, but AMD in others)

but it would probably kill them, so yea i guess i understand why they picked one platform

 

again, it's their review so it's their right to pick whatever platform they wanted.

 

aight, agreed.

Steve actually does spot check several titles on the 10900k test bench with the reviews. I think he included a few with the 3080 review. The triple release cycle has eliminated the time needed to move to the new test bench. Why it was a big decision when it happened.

 

 

Here's the entire video on it. I forgot about the PCIe 3.0 vs 4.0 issue looming as well.

 

 

Here's the comparison with the 3080. 

[WkdPaul]

Just now, DutchGuyTom said:

I mean, I am a law student and I don't think we need to import the same standards used in court to forums. There is no obligation to provide proof, we can just agree that not everyone believes it. 

You completely missed what I going for, my point was not that we should hold court standards in here, but if someone comes and present facts, and that they're challenged, I'm expecting some sort of back and forth ; a discussion and possibly the person pointing out where the statements where from, not a condescending reply like the one I quoted. Presenting facts, and then being condescending/patronizing when challenged is pretty much against the forum rules.

 

So, I suggest everyone, you included, read the Community Standards and follow the spirits of the rules that it outlines ; be respectful.

 

If this can't be followed, we'll simply lock the thread.

[WkdPaul]

3 minutes ago, seee the state im in nooow said:

*snip*

It's also frustrating how statements and facts are now in the belief realm ... if that worked, I would've believed about money growing on trees, and would've planted a USD bill tree in my backyard long ago !

[Exeon]

I'm glad this is getting quite some attention, love how Linus was pissed about this, almost felt like he's the one that had this happen to.

I love the content from Linus, however I do follow HU, when it comes down to a deep technical analysis they do a really good job.

 

I hope Nvidia backs down on this, but I'm not sure they will.

[WkdPaul]

2 minutes ago, Exeon said:

I hope Nvidia backs down on this, but I'm not sure they will.

I'm sure the backlash from other reviewers and the general public is going to make them reconsider.

[pas008]

2 hours ago, Moonzy said:

im not sure if that's what they're implying, or that's what you're thinking they're implying

 

yes they did, sort of

not directly afaik

 

it's about the 3080 POSCAPs thingy

but i think it's kind of fair, jayz shouldn't present rumors as facts (and potentially even caused MSRP cards like TUF to go up in price to high hell compared to other models, even to this day)

 

igorslab was speculating about the issue, it wasnt officially confirmed

and it turned out it wasnt the caps, so jayz did spread misinformation

 

i missed this

never seen this, not that i pay very close attention

 

i've seen him say good stuff and bad stuff about a product

but hearing more negative stuff is more important to me

 

sometimes u wanna know where the pitfalls are, not the benefits.

i'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

 

nvidia simply stopped sending them stuff because they're harsh on products, which is what a proper review should sound like, tbh

praise when a product is good, bash on it if it's bad

 

i've seen positive and negative reviews from them

so far i dont think they did anything that's too far from reality, and it's something that i can see someone genuinely care about, not just complain about things people will literally not care about

 

 

 

 

now... im not agree-ing with them using a poll to decide on what to review and what to skimp on

relying on audience isnt a very good idea because people tend to be skewed, fanboy-ism and what not

they did a poll asking what platform should they test the new GPUs on, AMD or Intel.

the poll went AMD, even though intel performs better (before 5000 series), and they went AMD

that's kind of a dumb decision, given you're not putting the best foot ahead for the GPU to perform.

as a reviewer, you should do testing and present the best results, not relying on some polls to tell you what to do

 

they did a poll asking if people are interested in RT, majority of the people voted no

while sure, people arent interested in RT now, but it could be amazing and they would be none the wiser if they decided to skip on reviewing it because their audience isnt interested in it, this can be frustrating when a company is trying its best to push a technology forward but people would just ignore it.

part of a reviewer's job is to look at all aspects of a product, i don't agree with their method of "doing what the audience wants"

it's like stroking their audience's own ego, it's somewhat of a confirmation bias (might be the wrong term but eh)

 

i want to know more about RT and DLSS and watch it grow, not ignore it and hope it bears fruit one day

their short 2 minute segment in their gpu review doesn't do it justice, imo

but their cyberpunk 2077 DLSS and RT coverage is amazing

agreed

review the product to its full potential

 

think it was turings encoder that no one really covered right away which was kinda a wtf moment of why wasnt this looked at right away

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, Eigenvektor said:

if you're willing to ignore ray tracing.

I would say a solid 90% or more of gamers are more than willing to ignore it for another 5-10 years, if they could think for themselves that is. Also while very unlikely AMD could just pull a fast one underneath nvidia next year or in 2022 and beat them in RT. Overall investing today in a RT card for RT at non DLSS (or alike) setup is a waste of money, heck it's still a waste of money because getting one today you know full well there are going to be gains of 20-50% maybe even 150% (who knows, they made the 2080 Ti a 3070) in a year or 2. I personally don't want a upscaled game , I would love RT but I'm being realistic. That's why I don't like Linus's take on AMDs first attempt making it seem like they shouldn't have bothered or done more to catch up to nvidia, he can't be simply happy they finally have a card that can compete in almost every aspect that most people care about and for the most part cheaper than nvidia?

 

24 titles that can play with RT enabled, with 10 upcoming, not including 2 Chinese/Japanese based MMORPG(?) games. RT right now literally falls under the who cares category because you can't play it (less Quake, a 23 year old game) at a consistent frame rate that goes past 60fps all the time w/o up scaling. If you are going to upscale, might as well save your money and just buy a 1080 or 1440 monitor instead, and with that money saved you might even be able to buy a better card that would work even better. I'm with Linus RT is the future, however PhysX was supposed to have been the future as well, where is that now? 40 titles(ish)? Banking on a specific feature and buying into it now because said card has it and not looking at every aspect of the cards performance is a very bad idea, unless you plan on playing only RT titles, but what about next years titles? Do you know they will work with your card or will you need to go out and get a new one for RT for them? Simply put what nvidia has done is made themselves like Tesla in hardware upgrades, longer you wait the more complete of a car you get.

 

I love nvidia, but I'll jump to AMD if they provide a better bang for the buck. Not necessarily best performance/out preforming, but if they do 5% worst for 5-10% less the nvidia card they've got me instead of nvidia, and that's how I bought the 5700XT over nvidia, it was cheaper, RT is a waste right now (even in the 3000 series) so I went for price to performance.

[pas008]

5 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

I would say a solid 90% or more of gamers are more than willing to ignore it for another 5-10 years, if they could think for themselves that is. Also while very unlikely AMD could just pull a fast one underneath nvidia next year or in 2022 and beat them in RT. Overall investing today in a RT card for RT at non DLSS (or alike) setup is a waste of money, heck it's still a waste of money because getting one today you know full well there are going to be gains of 20-50% maybe even 150% (who knows, they made the 2080 Ti a 3070) in a year or 2. I personally don't want a upscaled game , I would love RT but I'm being realistic. That's why I don't like Linus's take on AMDs first attempt making it seem like they shouldn't have bothered or done more to catch up to nvidia, he can't be simply happy they finally have a card that can compete in almost every aspect that most people care about and for the most part cheaper than nvidia?

 

24 titles that can play with RT enabled, with 10 upcoming, not including 2 Chinese/Japanese based MMORPG(?) games. RT right now literally falls under the who cares category because you can't play it (less Quake, a 23 year old game) at a consistent frame rate that goes past 60fps all the time w/o up scaling. If you are going to upscale, might as well save your money and just buy a 1080 or 1440 monitor instead, and with that money saved you might even be able to buy a better card that would work even better. I'm with Linus RT is the future, however PhysX was supposed to have been the future as well, where is that now? 40 titles(ish)? Banking on a specific feature and buying into it now because said card has it and not looking at every aspect of the cards performance is a very bad idea, unless you plan on playing only RT titles, but what about next years titles? Do you know they will work with your card or will you need to go out and get a new one for RT for them? Simply put what nvidia has done is made themselves like Tesla in hardware upgrades, longer you wait the more complete of a car you get.

 

I love nvidia, but I'll jump to AMD if they provide a better bang for the buck. Not necessarily best performance/out preforming, but if they do 5% worst for 5-10% less the nvidia card they've got me instead of nvidia, and that's how I bought the 5700XT over nvidia, it was cheaper, RT is a waste right now (even in the 3000 series) so I went for price to performance.

ok when dx12 came out why were reviewers testing it from the get go when there wasnt many games

because its showing its full potential

rt is in that same boat its not like physx, that wasnt even theirs they bought that

[spartaman64]

while is true that all companies would screw over the consumers to make money different companies have different perspectives on what point its worth it to them vs the reputation loss. and nvidia has shown repeatedly that point is very low to them. like what do they even gain from this? this just feels like pure vengeance 

[Egg-Roll]

9 minutes ago, pas008 said:

ok when dx12 came out why were reviewers testing it from the get go when there wasnt many games

because its showing its full potential

rt is in that same boat its not like physx, that wasnt even theirs they bought that

You are comparing a piece of software that will get updated till the next DX version, for free, vs a physical object that you will need to buy another unit for a upgrade.

I have a question for you when is the 2060 getting its free RT core count update? That's why you don't compare a piece of software like DX12 to a physical object, you can compare Physix to RT however because it relies on something physical to function effectively and heavily relies on companies to actually implement it properly which is more work than doing anything with DX12 because you still have to do that as well. Now if RT was built into DX12 and can be enabled with no extra work, now that's different, but it isn't at least not right now.

 

They are still working on it, it's not like they bought it and left it, it's still in active works, tho that is debatable since it's been a year or so now.

[pas008]

7 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

You are comparing a piece of software that will get updated till the next DX version, for free, vs a physical object that you will need to buy another unit for a upgrade.

I have a question for you when is the 2060 getting its free RT core count update? That's why you don't compare a piece of software like DX12 to a physical object, you can compare Physix to RT however because it relies on something physical to function effectively and heavily relies on companies to actually implement it properly which is more work than doing anything with DX12 because you still have to do that as well. Now if RT was built into DX12 and can be enabled with no extra work, now that's different, but it isn't at least not right now.

 

They are still working on it, it's not like they bought it and left it, it's still in active works, tho that is debatable since it's been a year or so now.

dxr is built into dx12

[SFFDesigns]

Finally! This was a disaster for Nvidia and I'm happy this has been resolved. Let's hope they address stuff like this internally

 

[samcool55]

Dear Nvidia,

 

I currently give zero shits about RTX because it's too expensive to get hardware that supports RTX. And there are almost no games that actually support it. #Rasterization

Once both problems are solved, we, gamers, might actually care about RTX features.

But right now most of us don't, so don't be a butthurt twat when the reality does actually not match with your vision.

 

HUB is right, you are wrong. You received many F-you's in the past from people like Linus Torvalds and the guys at apple.

And now, we, gamers, will happily give ours too.

 

Ps: it's just a transaction, you give us a big fuck you, we give one back. Fair is fair.

[Egg-Roll]

5 minutes ago, pas008 said:

dxr is built into dx12

I completely forgot about that existing, but my point still remains it will be updated till MS sees fit, however you buy a 3090 today it's not getting any sort of hardware upgrades to make it run games better, software/driver improvements sure, but those will apply to the 4000 series and on wards as well, so investing in RT cards now for RT when it's barely playable isn't a sound investment for a future you, esp if they do another generational leap like they did this time in which case you've wasted what $1000 more than you should have. This means if the $500 offerings from either nvidia or amd will work for you for the next 3-4 years get that instead or hold off because by then RT should be able to be played w/o DLSS crap enabled at 60-75fps in most or all titles with RT on.

 

RT today is a free add-on something one shouldn't take into consideration in buying a card, yet. This may change in the next gen cards, or it may not we don't know.

 

1 minute ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

Finally, this was a disaster for Nvidia and I'm happy this has been resolved. Let's hope they address stuff like this internally

"Oops sorry your card was lost in the mail" email incoming...

[SFFDesigns]

Just now, Egg-Roll said:

"Oops sorry your card was lost in the mail" email incoming...

Honestly I bet they will make sure that doesn't happen. It would make them look even worse, and at a certain point people might start buying AMD now that Nvidia is no longer the sole competitor at the top end.

 

Let's hope they never pull off stuff like this now that AMD is competitive and they don't want to lose customers

[spartaman64]

call me a fanboy if you want but i always knew nvidia is like this. while amd is not perfect and they pull a lot of BS also like any company nvidia is one of the worst

[Moonzy]

3 minutes ago, Hymenopus_Coronatus said:

This was a disaster for Nvidia and I'm happy this has been resolved.

i felt like this was about sending a message

 

still, a black mark on them, just like the GeForce partner program crap they tried to pull

i'll never forget

 

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

RT is not implemented in many games,

i don't like this argument, how many AAA game that came out after RTX is released didn't have RT?

u cant compare 2 years worth of games with the entire history

[SFFDesigns]

Just now, Moonzy said:

 

still, a black mark on them, just like the GeForce partner program crap they tried to pull

i'll never forget

Yep. I doubt they'll try this again tho, which is good. Hopefully they change some of their ways now that AMD has competition which could draw away customers

[Nex6]

Now that IS a mistake. They should have stuck with their decision and at least keep shred of credibility.

 

Now the big reviewers think they run the show.  That's why I would never be able to run a big corporation. I wouldn't change my decision as a matter of principle. And those who run corporations have no principles.