[OFFICIAL] ZEN 4 will be on a new platform with ddr5 and pcie 5.0.

[adarw]

Summary

in AMD's new video, five years of ryzen, 2 marketing officials have announced in a interview between each other that zen 2022 will move on a different platform.

 

Quotes

Quote

so in 2022 ryzen will have a new platform. And some key ingredients will be ddr5 and pcie 5.0

 

My thoughts

this video was made 2 weeks ago (you can see by the thing they start with right here). i think that this was to show the new zen will be competitive to alderlake, this was probably rehearsed a lot,.

 

 

Sources

https://youtu.be/yE9PsKWYYXA?

 

[CommanderAlex]

6 minutes ago, adarw said:

this was probably rehearsed a lot,.

To be perfect, right??? Wish I could say the same about their drivers...

[dizmo]

Shocking.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

This isnt news......

We already knes am5 was comming in 2022

zen4 was comming in 2022

ddr 5 was comming with am5

ddr5 was comming with zen4

 

This is just the fist time it was said in all one place

 

 

Though this does serve as a reminder that zen with 3d cache will be comming before zen 4, as its happening end of 2021.

Zen3d may actually the name of it.

[adarw]

2 minutes ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

This isnt news......

We already knes am5 was comming in 2022

zen4 was comming in 2022

ddr 5 was comming with am5

ddr5 was comming with zen4

 

This is just the fist time it was said in all one place

 

 

Though this does serve as a reminder that zen with 3d cache will be comming before zen 4, as its happening end of 2021.

Zen3d may actually the name of it.

we still dont know if zen3d is official tho.

 

 

however some sick news is that amd is working on some machine learning algrithom where it turns off part of the cpu while not in use. no im not talking about it just idleing, this seems really interesing and promising for laptops especially.

[Quackers101]

but will the 5000 series Ryzen CPUs be supported or will they drop support?

[Blademaster91]

Wasn't it already confirmed that Zen 4 would use DDR5 and would be launched in 2022?

Also Zen 3 with stacked 3D cache is going to be out at the end of 2021, or early 2022, performance increase could be 4% to 22%.

[CommanderAlex]

4 minutes ago, adarw said:

however some sick news is that amd is working on some machine learning algrithom where it turns off part of the cpu while not in use. no im not talking about it just idleing, this seems really interesing and promising for laptops especially.

Yes, it was a newer power management algorithm that they are designing to replace the current "one size fits all" algorithm. Instead, there will be multiple algorithms in use. 

[adarw]

1 minute ago, Quackers101 said:

but will the 5000 series Ryzen CPUs be supported or will they drop support?

what do you mean?

[Quackers101]

1 minute ago, adarw said:

what do you mean?

motherboard AM5 with ryzen 5000. which was maybe talked about first. I guess the support would be awful if they did.

[WolframaticAlpha]

1 hour ago, adarw said:

Summary

in AMD's new video, five years of ryzen, 2 marketing officials have announced in a interview between each other that zen 2022 will move on a different platform.

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

this video was made 2 weeks ago (you can see by the thing they start with right here). i think that this was to show the new zen will be competitive to alderlake, this was probably rehearsed a lot,.

 

 

Sources

https://youtu.be/yE9PsKWYYXA?

 

I wonder whether it will support select frequencies of DDR4. Afaik Intel is supporting DDR4 3200 and DDR5 4800 on ADL/LGA1700

[Quackers101]

9 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

I wonder whether it will support select frequencies of DDR4. Afaik Intel is supporting DDR4 3200 and DDR5 4800 on ADL/LGA1700

supports DDR4 while blowing up your RAM in the meantime ^^ oh wait it got into DDR3 mode, nvm.

But nice to see AMD getting a footing in the industry and able to push intel and others for change with competition.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Quackers101

[Quackers101]

but yeah, sounds like they want some "earlier" releases of laptops with the newer designs.

With more flexible CPUs and power management, so if the CPU can control a finer balance on power of what it needs and when.

If not this will add a "delay" in speed or whatever they end up doing? So might see a decrease of power used in newer laptops, but to know what reduces it or if any behaviour will be noticed in their newer laptops in 2022?

 

at least they are trying something new, hopefully its not a flawed system and ends up making the performance all over the place or bugs out the power delivery.

[Chris Pratt]

35 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

motherboard AM5 with ryzen 5000. which was maybe talked about first. I guess the support would be awful if they did.

No. The socket would be completely incompatible. Last I heard it's a land grid array, so it would be like trying to stuff a Zen 3 chip into an Intel mobo. I'm not sure where you got the idea that AM5 would support 5000 series, but that was never going to be a thing.

[Vishera]

I have a gut feeling that now that AMD is in the position it is now -

You will need a new motherboard every 2 generations if you want to upgrade the CPU,just like Intel does.

 

But the good thing is that the AM4 stuff will be cheaper.

[Falkentyne]

I mean they've had DDR5 engineering samples for awhile.  How do you think the AIB's are even able to design boards without memory?

Stuff takes tons of work and constant bug reports and feedback to the chip manufacturers, everyone under top secret NDA.

But DDR5 was only available in final form recently and it's in very early form, just like release DDR3 and DDR4...

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 hours ago, adarw said:

we still dont know if zen3d is official tho.

 

 

however some sick news is that amd is working on some machine learning algrithom where it turns off part of the cpu while not in use. no im not talking about it just idleing, this seems really interesing and promising for laptops especially.

Um….

we do?

there was a whole thing about it on a amd keynote and how it was comming out by end of the year…

[porina]

7 hours ago, adarw said:

we still dont know if zen3d is official tho.

The product has been mentioned by AMD, just not exactly what marketing name will be attached to it.

 

7 hours ago, adarw said:

however some sick news is that amd is working on some machine learning algrithom where it turns off part of the cpu while not in use. no im not talking about it just idleing, this seems really interesing and promising for laptops especially.

This sounds like some buzzword spin if so, without trying to find the original source to see exactly what was claimed. The goal of turning off parts of unused parts of the CPU to save power has been around for a while, and is a balance of power saving vs responsiveness - you don't want high latency caused by wake up time for example. The more "off" it is, the more time it might take to recover. How it is done may be interesting for microarchitecture analysis but largely irrelevant for almost everyone.

 

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Also Zen 3 with stacked 3D cache is going to be out at the end of 2021, or early 2022, performance increase could be 4% to 22%.

Depends on workload. Things that already scale with ram performance might benefit most, so expect Cinebench to be on the low end. I'd go as far as to say <1%.

 

6 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

I wonder whether it will support select frequencies of DDR4. Afaik Intel is supporting DDR4 3200 and DDR5 4800 on ADL/LGA1700

The question here should be, will AMD offer it on AM4 in addition to AM5? With the chiplet approach they could potentially pair it with a DDR4 IOD. However IMO with the increased bandwidth of DDR5 they really need to upgrade Infinity Fabric in socket as its current form will be even more of a choke point than it already is. That might make it incompatible or just seriously constrained with DDR4 IOD.

 

5 hours ago, Falkentyne said:

How do you think the AIB's are even able to design boards without memory?

They can get a lot of the way there without physical samples, which is only really needed for practical verification. Board layout for signal connection is fundamentally transmission line theory. They know from the standards what the expected working clock range will be, and also other characteristics like impedances which affect signal integrity. 

[GameChimmera]

This is an excerpt from a datacenter sheet that outlines some basic information about some of the specs that can come with some of these motherboards. It gives us some broad specifications for us to work with & allows us to start getting ready for the new CPUS & start sourcing various components. It will be interesting to see how both server based & consumer boards are priced with AM5 & Zen 4 sockets as we have not yet received these pricings.

[Doobeedoo]

This will be a great upgrade overall. Very excited to see the new architecture along with their V-cache on top. As well as next-gen APUs with DDR5 really look forward to see how much memory will boost performance. As for PCI-e 5.0 quite a lot I/O options, also next-gen SSDs those will have incredible bandwidth. Another thing USB4 will be yet another big improvement, finally utilizing Type-C only, also 240 W charging is incredible.

[StDragon]

21 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Wasn't it already confirmed that Zen 4 would use DDR5 and would be launched in 2022?

Also Zen 3 with stacked 3D cache is going to be out at the end of 2021, or early 2022, performance increase could be 4% to 22%.

Probably around the ballpark of 15% at best from what I've read. But yes, Zen3 with 3D cache would be the last CPU for AM4. It's an easy mod for Zen3 because the architecture is already there; all that's left is stacking cache on top of the die.

[Blademaster91]

29 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Probably around the ballpark of 15% at best from what I've read. But yes, Zen3 with 3D cache would be the last CPU for AM4. It's an easy mod for Zen3 because the architecture is already there; all that's left is stacking cache on top of the die.

In the 5 years of AMD ryzen video, they claim about 15% for games that like faster memory access. Although stacking cache on top of the die could cause higher core temps. I think it will be interesting if Zen 3d can compete with Alder lake, AMD would have better value over more expensive DDR5, and existing AM4 boards can have an upgrade.

[StDragon]

10 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Although stacking cache on top of the die could cause higher core temps.

I assumed it would be stacked on top. But now that you mention it, it would make more sense to stack on the bottom where the CPU portion of the die is touching the heat spreader directly. 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, StDragon said:

I assumed it would be stacked on top. But now that you mention it, it would make more sense to stack on the bottom where the CPU portion of the die is touching the heat spreader directly. 

The cache die itself only covers the L3 cache portion of the Zen die and the silicon sub straight over the cores and the stacking technology used is optimized for heat transfer. It will likely cause a little bit of heat increase but not much. These are flip chips and the dies will be stacked/bonded, then/as part of the packaging. The top part of what we see on a CPU package on our CPU is just a protected silicon layer, that's why you can actually skim it down (wouldn't recommended it) so we aren't actually talking about any extra thickness over the overall package and I would expect very marginal difference in heat transfer between just this pure protected silicon layer and an extra die within that.

 

 

 

Quote

TSMC fuses the two chips together with a two-phase bonding technique. The first phase uses a hydrophilic dielectric-to-dielectric bonding process at room temperature, then annealing bonds the dielectric connections. The second phase is a direct copper-to-copper bonding that forms the bonds by solid-state diffusion. AMD says the technique uses silicon fab-like manufacturing with back-end like TSVs, which means the production flow is similar to that of a regular chip. 

 

Quote

AMD is implementing a 9 micron Micro Bump 3D chiplet package for the V-Cache through silicon via (TSV). Although only 1 micron thinner than Intel’s Foveros 3D stacking that will be used to produce the Alder Lake processors, the Micro Bumps from AMD are said to offer more than 3 times the interconnect energy efficiency, 15 times interconnect density and capacitance/inductance. 

 

[porina]

10 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think it will be interesting if Zen 3d can compete with Alder lake, AMD would have better value over more expensive DDR5, and existing AM4 boards can have an upgrade.

If one is better or not than the other will not only depend on how they perform but the question of exactly what judgement criteria is used. I'm looking forward to the inevitable arguments already.

 

Also, my gut feeling is that these high cache models when they eventually appear will sit on top of AMD's existing product stack, at higher pricing. More performance for more money isn't necessarily a bad thing, but this feels like a halo product move.