Far Cry New Dawn Benchmark shows performance on Linux within 2% to 3% of performance on Windows

[ryao]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Which is great and all, but majority of people aren't going to learn how to use linux or it's terminal just for 2-3%.  It literally is going to have to be a turnkey package before people switch. 

 

I cut my teeth on dos, dr dos, early versions of menu programs including windows and geos and I still use Linux for my workbench PC,  but even I am too lazy to be bothered swapping from windows unless the carrot is much bigger than 2-3% improvement.

I think you misunderstand what is being reported. Linux is currently 2% to 3% worse than Windows in this Windows native game’s internal benchmark. Two years ago, 50% was considered good. It is a huge improvement.

 

Interestingly, the wine-tkg result is reporting a higher minimum frame rate on Linux than on Windows in this game’s internal benchmark. On that metric, Linux is outperforming Windows by 5%.

 

Also, for a number of games, all that you need to do is install them from steam. What Valve has done has made it that simple for many people.

 

You do not necessarily need to touch the terminal on Linux. I have given Linux to friends and relatives who never touch the terminal and it just works for them.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, ryao said:

I think you misunderstand what is being reported. Linux is currently 2% to 3% worse than Windows in this Windows native game’s internal benchmark. Two years ago, 50% was considered good. It is a huge improvement.

My mistake, I did think it was 2-3% better under linux.  Which kinda makes what i said a little more real.

4 hours ago, ryao said:

Interestingly, the wine-tkg result is reporting a higher minimum frame rate on Linux than on Windows in this game’s internal benchmark. On that metric, Linux is outperforming Windows by 5%.

 

Also, for a number of games, all that you need to do is install them from steam. What Valve has done has made it that simple for many people.

 

You do not necessarily need to touch the terminal on Linux. I have given Linux to friends and relatives who never touch the terminal and it just works for them.

 

 I have seen people use it without education too,  but I still think it is going to have to offer more than just be an alternative before people actually make the move.

[ryao]

On 9/14/2019 at 4:33 AM, mr moose said:

My mistake, I did think it was 2-3% better under linux.  Which kinda makes what i said a little more real.

 

 I have seen people use it without education too,  but I still think it is going to have to offer more than just be an alternative before people actually make the move.

Not having to deal with malware, antivirus slowdowns, fragmentation slowdowns, privacy issues, forced updates, system breaking updates, etcetera makes it more than an alternative to me. It is simply better in many ways. It’s support for various games is the main area where it is behind, but it is catching up. I originally gave up Windows games because of all of the other advantages. Now many Windows games are an option on Linux and it is great.

[Chunchunmaru_]

On 9/12/2019 at 6:03 PM, RejZoR said:

Until it's as "plug and play" as on Windows it just won't catch on no matter the performance numbers. Because when you at any point expect from user to put any kind of noodle into a terminal, you've already failed.

 

I'd love to see Linux be a 100% viable gaming option, but even I as an advanced user can't be bothered constantly fiddling with bunch of stuff to play a game. And that's not an unreasonable expectation. For most people updating graphic drivers is already a feat on its own, so going far beyond that just makes it a no-no entirely.

"Plug and play as on windows"

Well...  most of the time

 

Where are you supposed to use the terminal to make things work?
Linux is even more plug&play than Windows since you don't even have to download the drivers manually (exception made for Nvidia, but you are still using a GUI for that)

I think you are confusing how things were years ago, the real problem here is making things work if you don't have the driver because you are using Debian or Ubuntu LTS for example, and you just bought a 5700 XT, the development here is slower (means you have to wait for updated drivers on your system) unless you pick a distribution with costantly updated (and unstable) drivers, this imo is where the problem really is.

You have to choose between compatibility or stability, at least on Ubuntu LTS you can install repositories (you could do that even with a GUI) it's not properly "plug and play" to set those up, but is not even that hard or different than finding drivers on the internet like on Windows, you just have to know where to look, the majority of the Linux community is really confused here and will just recommend to install another distro, something like Manjaro, instead of using a stable distro with small parts of the system slightly more updated and this is the correct way.
Some people are not even able to do that in Windows... Generally is not that different or harder

 

As for steam proton, this is just what you said, it lets you play games without fiddling with wine and it's plug & play

Edited September 15, 2019 by Chunchunmaru_

[jagdtigger]

On 9/14/2019 at 2:26 AM, Drak3 said:

In my experience, anyone claiming that their favorite Linux Distro is user friendly is blinded by favoritism or lacks access to a dictionary.

TBH this is pretty misleading. It heavily depends on the user. For the average Joe (almost everything done in a browser and maybe they have some local media) Ubuntu/PoP! OS is as user friendly as it gets. For gamers its not there yet but with proton its not that far away either.

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Ubuntu/PoP! OS is as user friendly as it gets.

In the context of Linux distros.

 

4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

TBH this is pretty misleading.

No, calling desktop Linux user friendly is very misleading, as is saying that it's a good option for the average joe. This forum is actually the first, and only place that I've seen people make that claim. At least the fanboys on other platforms will concede that Linux is not near ready for the masses.

[jagdtigger]

14 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

No, calling desktop Linux user friendly is very misleading, as is saying that it's a good option for the average joe.

Talk about being blinded geeze.....  It has everything built in an average person needs: browser, office, media player, e-mail client, easy to use software center for extra stuff(which is actually a fancy frontend for apt). If this isnt user friendly IDK what is. (Forget about terminal. Didnt touched it since ages for non server stuff.)

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

It has everything built in an average person needs:

By that logic, Windows Compact Embedded is as user friendly as it gets.

 

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

If this isnt user friendly IDK what is.

Being plug and play with the vast majority of devices on the market.

Few issues that are caused by the OS itself (and the severity of most of Windows' issues are oversensationalized, otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be around in the consumer market).

Reliable GUI for installing programs and fixing minor issues.

 

And again, this is the first, and only forum I've seen where Linux fanboys will spread the lie that their distro of choice hits these, or are on the level of OSX and Windows.

They're not.

[Ithanul]

On 9/12/2019 at 4:48 PM, mr moose said:

Not if you've never used a terminal before and never had to deal with anything other than clicking the play now button in steam.

Even as an user of Linux distros.  Other folks just don't want to be bother using a terminal and want an computer to just work.

 

At work we still have users that manage to f up a lock down RHEL build (this after we have all users going through a week to two week class on its usage).  And, that setup even has odd off behavior that occurs that gets our programmers' scratching their heads at times (I could rant for days about the bloody sound cards and our recording software causing crashes - the hardware update did not go smooth at all). 

[jagdtigger]

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Being plug and play with the vast majority of devices on the market.

It is P&P, the issue is on the HW manufacturers side. Which is by no means the fault of the OS.

 

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Few issues that are caused by the OS itself (and the severity of most of Windows' issues are oversensationalized, otherwise Microsoft wouldn't be around in the consumer market).

More like many, they cant hand out a version of win10 that isnt bugged in some way and it keeps getting worse. (best example of the current issue with cortana, and the brutally buggy fix for it)

 

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Reliable GUI for installing programs and fixing minor issues.

SW center is pretty reliable, BTW your average user wont do any fixing, not even on windows, and even in the rare  case they try they just bork it in 99,9% of cases).

 

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

OSX and Windows.

They're not.

OSX is just a fancy GUI on top of BSD so nothing to talk about there. As for windows plenty of fanboys here, they constantly cite that linux isnt user friendly for the average consumer without facts vs my experience. I managed to switch over a few ppl to linux. No issues with their machines ever since(one huge advantage with linux is the LTS release and the modern updating system that wont hog resources needlessly unlike windows). They were actually happy because their PC runs better with Xubuntu than it did with win10..... X'D

Edited September 15, 2019 by jagdtigger

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

OSX is just a fancy GUI on top of BSD so nothing to talk about there. As for windows plenty of fanboys here, they constantly cite that linux isnt user friendly for the average consumer without facts vs my experience. I managed to switch over a few ppl to linux. No issues with their machines ever since(one huge advantage with linux is the LTS release and the modern updating system that wont hog resources needlessly unlike windows). They were actually happy because their PC runs better with Xubuntu than it did with win10..... X'D

Calling MacOS "just a fancy GUI on top of BSD" is like saying a Tesla Model 3 is just a pretty shell on top of a big battery... that is, the part you're downplaying makes all the difference.  Let me know when Linux has built-in SMS syncing with your smartphone, when it natively runs Photoshop, and then we can talk about a seamless experience.

 

Part of the debate is that the definition of "user friendly" varies depending on platform allegiances.  The concern is that Linux fans may have a lower bar for ease of use than Windows users (and certainly Mac users).  Say, how often you have to use the command line, or how easy it is to find a file or back up your data.  Linux is certainly easier to use than it has been, but there are times when its devotees act as if all casual users could just hop on Ubuntu and never think twice... well, no.

[WereCatf]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

It is P&P, the issue is on the HW manufacturers side. Which is by no means the fault of the OS.

I'm just gonna pop in this thread for a bit to say that that's a stupid strawman; whether the fault is with the OS or the manufacturers, the end-result is the same. Users don't care who the fault lies with, they care whether the stuff works or not.

[jagdtigger]

39 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

a stupid strawman

Whatever, if you want to dismiss a hard fact......

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

built-in SMS syncing

KDE connect

 

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

natively runs Photoshop

r=1 users don run photoshop

 

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

how often you have to use the command line

Dont even remember when was the last time i used the terminal... (excluding server stuff)

 

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

how easy it is to find a file

Its built into the file manager just like windows....

 

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

back up your data

Depends on the distro if its preinstalled but there is a gui tool for it: Déjà Dup Backup Tool.  Its actually easier to backup application settings than on windows since you dont have to deal with the PITA registry....

 

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

well, no

Actually yes if the user only uses it open a browser window(this covers up a very huge chunk of the user base), the only thing stopping them is laziness because they dont want to "waste" time. Instead they are wasting money(sadly enough they are in total denial on this)...

[Tech Enthusiast]

Since people won't even understand half of what is named in the OP, It is not easy enough.

Glad Linux is getting some love,.. I just don't think it will resurrect it enough to be of any significance to the market.

 

Great for those that love to be different tho! Options are always nice.

[Commodus]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

KDE connect

 

r=1 users don run photoshop

 

Dont even remember when was the last time i used the terminal... (excluding server stuff)

 

Its built into the file manager just like windows....

 

Depends on the distro if its preinstalled but there is a gui tool for it: Déjà Dup Backup Tool.  Its actually easier to backup application settings than on windows since you dont have to deal with the PITA registry....

 

Actually yes if the user only uses it open a browser window(this covers up a very huge chunk of the user base), the only thing stopping them is laziness because they dont want to "waste" time. Instead they are wasting money(sadly enough they are in total denial on this)...

 

KDE Connect isn't built-in, isn't all that simple to install and requires an app on your phone.  You're proving my point, really... there's what Linux users think is easy to use, and then there's what's actually easy to use.

 

Photoshop is used by millions of creatives -- and importantly, it's one example of major apps that don't have native Linux versions.  I basically couldn't get my work done on a Linux PC, at least not without some kludges, and I know I'm not alone.  Gamers certainly can't consider it.

 

File finding?  On Macs and Windows PCs you can click a search icon on the home screen, start typing and find not just file names, but content inside those files.

 

Déja Dup looks simple to use, but it's not built-in and still not as easy as it can get.  On my Mac I just plug in a USB drive and enable Time Machine when prompted... that's it.

 

And you're being dismissive of what users actually need.  Yeah, people often just rely on a browser, but many don't, and I don't think we should make that assumption.  And no, it's not laziness, it's called expecting more from your computer.  Your PC shouldn't involve significant work just to get it running the way you like; it should fade into the background and serve as a launchpad for creativity, communication and fun.  Linux isn't necessarily a headache to maintain, but it requires more effort than some fans would care to admit.

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, Commodus said:

isn't all that simple to install and requires an app on your phone

Do you actually use linux or you just like to throw crap at it no matter what?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Photoshop is used by millions of creatives

Wine, plus its not a r=1 use case.

 

7 minutes ago, Commodus said:

  On Macs and Windows PCs you can click a search icon on the home screen, start typing and find not just file names, but content inside those files.

 

8 minutes ago, Commodus said:

but it's not built-in

Not in every distro, same simple one click install as kde connect. Bonus compared to windows that it can actually use any network share, not just local disks. As for setup its pretty easy: folders to save, folders to ignore, backup location, scheduling. As a default it automatically adds the home dir and the user only needs to turn it on. Cant make it any easier than this IMO.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Commodus said:

t's called expecting more from your computer

Its called laziness because most of the arguments i hear about linux: it looks different, its not the same way as windows, it doesnt work like windows etc, etc, etc............... 

 

11 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Your PC shouldn't involve significant work just to get it running the way you like

Yeah, this is why i dont use windows10(and many others). On linux you choose the GUI that is to your liking and don have to redo my settings after every big update.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Commodus said:

but it requires more effort than some fans would care to admit

The only problem i seen so far is some manufacturers are a**holes and intentionally block attempts to run anything else than windows. If the manufacturer isnt locking down the HW its pretty straight forward... (If it were so problematic system76 wouldnt be still around)

[Jito463]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:03 AM, RejZoR said:

I'd love to see Linux be a 100% viable gaming option, but even I as an advanced user can't be bothered constantly fiddling with bunch of stuff to play a game. And that's not an unreasonable expectation. For most people updating graphic drivers is already a feat on its own

I recently received a mini-STX system based on the Ryzen Embedded (effectively the same chip as the Ryzen Mobile).  Installed Mint, and found that the driver would only work with Ubuntu (despite Mint being based on Ubuntu).  A friend more familiar with Linux helped me get the driver installed, only to find out the package manager became corrupted and I had to start over from scratch.  Second time, I couldn't get the driver installed anymore.  Gave up and installed Ubuntu, updated Ubuntu and then was informed by the driver that it would only work with specific kernels (which was just updated, so not compatible).

 

I finally got fed up, installed Windows 10, downloaded and installed the driver and it just works.  Now, admittedly this is a pretty obscure piece of hardware, and the issues could be caused by AMD, but it's still indicative of how even an advanced user can run into issues that aren't resolvable.  I might have been successful if I kept plodding through, but enough was enough.  I wasted hours on that experiment with nothing to show for it.  I intended to use it for playing games through Proton, but I guess that's off the table now.

[Unixsystem]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:33 AM, mr moose said:

My mistake, I did think it was 2-3% better under linux.  Which kinda makes what i said a little more real.

 

 I have seen people use it without education too,  but I still think it is going to have to offer more than just be an alternative before people actually make the move.

I think this news is less "ah now everyone can move to Linux" and more a sign that we are finally solving the chicken and egg problem of popular consumer/workstation software isn't available on Linux -> people are unwilling to switch to Linux -> Linux has a small install base -> few developers make their software for Linux. 

 

There's still plenty of hurdles to get over, not the least of which is the general Linux community's insistence that the terminal is super intuitive and easy to use. That said, if we start getting widespread game/software support that is on par with the native Windows version, then the conversation becomes much more about "here's how to use this different OS to do the things you want to do" instead of "here's what you are going to need to sacrifice just in order to get away from Windows."

 

It's only the first step, but it's arguably the biggest one. 

[Tech Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

I recently received a mini-STX system based on the Ryzen Embedded (effectively the same chip as the Ryzen Mobile).  Installed Mint, and found that the driver would only work with Ubuntu (despite Mint being based on Ubuntu).  A friend more familiar with Linux helped me get the driver installed, only to find out the package manager became corrupted and I had to start over from scratch.  Second time, I couldn't get the driver installed anymore.  Gave up and installed Ubuntu, updated Ubuntu and then was informed by the driver that it would only work with specific kernels (which was just updated, so not compatible).

 

I finally got fed up, installed Windows 10, downloaded and installed the driver and it just works.  Now, admittedly this is a pretty obscure piece of hardware, and the issues could be caused by AMD, but it's still indicative of how even an advanced user can run into issues that aren't resolvable.  I might have been successful if I kept plodding through, but enough was enough.  I wasted hours on that experiment with nothing to show for it.  I intended to use it for playing games through Proton, but I guess that's off the table now.

Not gonna lie,.. that is almost exactly my experience on three different occasions. 

Also the same as my wife,... but she also had some issues with GPU drivers mixed in there. When she finally got that kernel + linux version working, she noticed that the only working kernal had issues with GPU drivers,...

 

Linux is still a mess. If you need your machine to run, run stable and run without investing a lot of time into it, you don't use Linux.

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, ryao said:

Not having to deal with malware, antivirus slowdowns, fragmentation slowdowns, privacy issues, forced updates, system breaking updates, etcetera makes it more than an alternative to me. It is simply better in many ways. It’s support for various games is the main area where it is behind, but it is catching up. I originally gave up Windows games because of all of the other advantages. Now many Windows games are an option on Linux and it is great.

Are you trying to turn this into a windows versus linux debate?

 

It won't be long before Windows linux is added to the AMD/Nvidia flame bait in the CS.

[FezBoy]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:26 PM, Drak3 said:

I've heard this about Mint, Ubuntu, Debian, and Fedora.

 

In my experience, anyone claiming that their favorite Linux Distro is user friendly is blinded by favoritism or lacks access to a dictionary.

Imo, Arch is pretty user friendly.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Waffles13 said:

I think this news is less "ah now everyone can move to Linux" and more a sign that we are finally solving the chicken and egg problem of popular consumer/workstation software isn't available on Linux -> people are unwilling to switch to Linux -> Linux has a small install base -> few developers make their software for Linux. 

 

There's still plenty of hurdles to get over, not the least of which is the general Linux community's insistence that the terminal is super intuitive and easy to use. That said, if we start getting widespread game/software support that is on par with the native Windows version, then the conversation becomes much more about "here's how to use this different OS to do the things you want to do" instead of "here's what you are going to need to sacrifice just in order to get away from Windows."

 

It's only the first step, but it's arguably the biggest one. 

 

I don't know what the general industry thinks of linux and the idea of consumers moving to it.  As far as i am concerned like any product market,  until there is a need I just can't see it happening in a hurry.   No one likes change for the sake of change, in fact people are more likely to resist change.  The alternative has to provide people with something very desirable before it will be considered.  which means the it won't gain popular traction until well after that.

 

And that is before they work out how to make it as hardware generic as windows is without all the issues windows has.  Something I also can't see happening for a long time.

 

 

[LAwLz]

In this thread: Baby duck syndrome

 

Some things I would like people to keep in mind when debating GNU/Linux VS Windows

 

1) Anecdotal evidence can be flawed. Just because you have had a problem does not mean other people will have the same problem. 

2) "Different" does not necessarily mean bad or difficult. It does not necessarily mean good or easy either. 

3) Not everyone does the same things on their computers. Just because you do a particular task and one OS might be better at that, doesn't mean others will care about that particular thing. 

4) Each OS has their place. There is no need to constantly shit on one and praise the other. It is possible to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses in both. 

5) It's very unwise to make statements about things you don't fully understand.

[ryao]

4 hours ago, Jito463 said:

I recently received a mini-STX system based on the Ryzen Embedded (effectively the same chip as the Ryzen Mobile).  Installed Mint, and found that the driver would only work with Ubuntu (despite Mint being based on Ubuntu).  A friend more familiar with Linux helped me get the driver installed, only to find out the package manager became corrupted and I had to start over from scratch.  Second time, I couldn't get the driver installed anymore.  Gave up and installed Ubuntu, updated Ubuntu and then was informed by the driver that it would only work with specific kernels (which was just updated, so not compatible).

 

I finally got fed up, installed Windows 10, downloaded and installed the driver and it just works.  Now, admittedly this is a pretty obscure piece of hardware, and the issues could be caused by AMD, but it's still indicative of how even an advanced user can run into issues that aren't resolvable.  I might have been successful if I kept plodding through, but enough was enough.  I wasted hours on that experiment with nothing to show for it.  I intended to use it for playing games through Proton, but I guess that's off the table now.

Most people here would be complaining about how you are supposed to install nvidia’s driver via the package manager. If your AMD graphics hardware is a couple years old, it should generally just work out of the box. Being one year old might work. Anything newer and most distributions will not have support because AMD does not get the process to add support to Linux’s graphics stack started until after release.

 

Intel starts that process a year or two before release. Nvidia’s binary driver is modular enough that you can drop it into place, so their habit to release drivers that support new hardware around the release date is not nearly as much of a problem as AMD’s.

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Are you trying to turn this into a windows versus linux debate?

 

It won't be long before Windows linux is added to the AMD/Nvidia flame bait in the CS.

You said that Linux needed to offer more. My response is that it already does. It just is behind in terms of games because they are being released for Windows using proprietary APIs as part of vendor lock-in.

[justpoet]

Since there seem to be a few thread topics going on, I guess I'll make a few comments.

 

1) Mac OS X is getting less and less easy to use each iteration, and removing options that are desired each time too.  That being said, it *IS* far more than BSD with a pretty interface.  It gets a lot of my mainstream work done without fuss…as long as I reboot every other week or so if I keep tons of Safari tabs open.  Firefox is getting much more use as of late.

 

2) Regarding the original post and topic, this is GREAT news that performance in Linux is now near Windows for specific gaming workloads!  I hope this becomes as easy and common as people hope, and built into all the common distros.

 

3) I love linux, but saying linux is easy to use is laughable.  Even mainstream distros like Ubuntu are horrible in this regard.  Even something as simple as downloading and installing the folding@home client using the .deb package from their website broke the installer so no updates could install…not to the program…to the whole OS.  Want to use something like OpenCL on an AMD GPU?  Good luck.  How about finding compatibility information for a given bit of hardware…yeah, very rarely do any of the companies put linux compatible on the box anymore, and usually if it is something new, it isn't compatible at least for a while.  Then there's the "not in the distro" packages and repos that you have to find, and figure out which ones to get, and which ones you can and can't trust.  Don't get me wrong, linux is still awesome, and I run it on servers and the like often…but saying it is as easy to use as the two mainstream OSs, and therefor ready for everyone, is just not even close to being true.