Far Cry New Dawn Benchmark shows performance on Linux within 2% to 3% of performance on Windows

[ryao]

18 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

Dafuq is this thread turning into, calm your tiddies.   Everything you guys said is true.

I use both and i love both, i love MacOS too. They all have their ups and downs. 

Mac OS X is nice too. I use all three operating systems. I mostly only use Windows for comparison purposes like getting benchmark data to compare it and Linux though.

[Mihle]

4 hours ago, ryao said:

Broadcom has always focused on Windows support for that hardware. There was a time when that was the only thing that they seemed to support. That has resulted in a mess, although it usually is not that bad. Had you asked the community for help, they likely could have helped you get it working.

 

Broadcom’s unwillingness to support anything other than the OS that the vendor (their real customer) ships on a given piece of hardware is keeping Windows 10 off the Raspberry Pi 4:

 

https://github.com/WOA-Project/WOA-Deployer-Rpi/issues/41

 

The situation with using your Broadcom WiFi NIC with Linux on your laptop is *far* better than the situation with Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4. Getting Linux working with the WiFi NIC on your laptop is likely doable with community support. Getting Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi likely needs a team of engineers to spend months trying to figure it out.

It's not a laptop. The wifi card is Asus PCIe AC58 or something.

[ryao]

19 minutes ago, Mihle said:

It's not a laptop. The wifi card is Asus PCIe AC58 or something.

Do you mean this?

 

https://www.asus.com/us/Networking/PCEAC68/

 

I suspect that the additional drivers menu on Ubuntu that I mentioned could be used for that. The previous link that I provided shows how to do that. The following also shows that:

 

https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/69207

 

There are multiple ways of installing the driver for that hardware. The following shows the more common way mentioned (the commands should work across multiple versions of Ubuntu):

 

https://www.howtoinstall.co/en/ubuntu/xenial/bcmwl-kernel-source

 

You likely would have been up and running quickly had you asked someone in the community for advice. If you try again and run into issues, I recommend trying community support channels. People such as myself are often happy to help if asked. The solutions can often be fairly simple.

 

By the way, I was mistaken to assume that it was a laptop. Usually laptops are how people end up with Broadcom WiFi NICs. 

[Mihle]

14 hours ago, ryao said:

Do you mean this?

 

https://www.asus.com/us/Networking/PCEAC68/

 

I suspect that the additional drivers menu on Ubuntu that I mentioned could be used for that. The previous link that I provided shows how to do that. The following also shows that:

 

https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/69207

 

There are multiple ways of installing the driver for that hardware. The following shows the more common way mentioned (the commands should work across multiple versions of Ubuntu):

 

https://www.howtoinstall.co/en/ubuntu/xenial/bcmwl-kernel-source

 

You likely would have been up and running quickly had you asked someone in the community for advice. If you try again and run into issues, I recommend trying community support channels. People such as myself are often happy to help if asked. The solutions can often be fairly simple. You probably won’t get a distribution developer answering like you did here (I am from a different distribution though), but just about anyone doing community support should be able to help with things like this.

 

By the way, I was mistaken to assume that it was a laptop. Usually laptops are how people end up with Broadcom WiFi NICs. 

It's the 2 antenna one, not the 3 antenna one, but yes.

 

WiFi not working out of the box is something you should not have to deal with at all, not even if it's just pressing a button on a site and then press install. And that is even more than that, and that does keep people away from Linux. And it's not like it's the only case people come over either.

 

 

[ryao]

11 minutes ago, Mihle said:

It's the 2 antenna one, not the 3 antenna one, but yes.

 

WiFi not working out of the box is something you should not have to dobat all, not even if it's just pressing a button on a site and then press install. And that is even more than that, and that does keep people away from Linux. And it's not like it's the only case people come over either.

 

 

I heard that Ubuntu is supposed to handle this better now. It is supposed to let you install additional drivers such as this one during the installation process. This definitely could become better, but Broadcom’s situation is somewhat special because they have not played nicely with Linux in the past. The driver that they provide for your hardware is likely of a lower quality than the drivers typically available on Linux. That is not to say that their Windows driver is any better, but it is to say that the situation is messy.

 

For what it is worth, it is fairly common that the Windows installation media does not provide drivers for various devices. That requires that people hunt them down after installation. You were lucky that you had everything that you needed included. I cannot remember the last time I did a Windows installation where that was my experience.

[WereCatf]

6 hours ago, ryao said:

You were fortunate with your Windows installation experience (although your user experience might not be as good as you suggest due to things like forced updates).

You do mention "forced updates" quite a lot in this thread, but I don't think they're big of an issue as you seem to think. I, myself, have been bitten by them like 4 times ever since Win10 was launched and I haven't personally heard anyone else complain about them. Now, I'm not saying they aren't an issue for some people; I'm just saying I don't think there are as many people for whom they are a problem as you.

 

Buggy updates are a related issue, but Linux isn't exempt from those, either. I have had Ubuntu practically destroying itself several times when I've done an upgrade from one version to the next, I've had Ubuntu become unbootable due to a kernel-bug and so on. Neither OS is perfect. (Can't say 'nuffin 'bout OSX, though)

[ryao]

1 hour ago, WereCatf said:

You do mention "forced updates" quite a lot in this thread, but I don't think they're big of an issue as you seem to think. I, myself, have been bitten by them like 4 times ever since Win10 was launched and I haven't personally heard anyone else complain about them. Now, I'm not saying they aren't an issue for some people; I'm just saying I don't think there are as many people for whom they are a problem as you.

I mentioned a longer list when the idea that Linux is somehow merely an alternative that needed to be better was brought up. Linux has its own strengths and weaknesses. It would work for a great many people and the ones that I have migrated to it generally like it. The biggest thing about it is that it works consistently. They turn it on, use the system and turn it off. The performance after a year is often little different than the performance on day 1 while Window often sees a drop from all of the stuff that gets added over time.

Quote

 

Buggy updates are a related issue, but Linux isn't exempt from those, either. I have had Ubuntu practically destroying itself several times when I've done an upgrade from one version to the next, I've had Ubuntu become unbootable due to a kernel-bug and so on. Neither OS is perfect. (Can't say 'nuffin 'bout OSX, though)

Upgrading Ubuntu versions is like upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 10. It is more risky than normal updates. Windows 10 seems to have adopted a rolling release model that subjects people to this kind of risk every 6 months. Linux rolling releases like Gentoo and Arch seem to have fewer problems with updates breaking things when installed.

 

Neither OS is perfect, but it is misleading to regard Windows as superior just because it came preinstalled and people are accepting of whatever headaches it has. There are plenty of headaches on Windows that do not exist on Linux. You will also find headaches on Linux that do not exist on Windows, but the average user that does email, web browsing and word processing generally does not encounter them.

 

Windows seems to be regressing in things that it used to support as it gains new things while Linux is advancing without regressing very much in its support of older things. You find situations on Windows 10 where a driver is unavailable because the only driver made for Windows was for Windows XP or older. You also find situations where Microsoft explicitly broke backward compatibility like for Zoo Tycoon, which is rather hard to get working again because despite owning it, they never released a fix for it.

 

You rarely find things where drivers required an older version of Linux and things like Zoo Tycoon, while a pain to setup in Wine, are easier to setup in Wine than on Windows. Right now, you need to install dgVoodoo 2 and DXVK to make Zoo Tycoon work in Wine. You need to sign an insecure DRM driver to get it to work on Windows.

 

Linux is ready to be used by the majority of PC users and most would have a better experience if they used it. I have migrated 5 people (maybe 6, but I do not remember one clearly) to Linux in person and they have all been happier with it. In one case, I did not migrate a person (his problems were minor). After fixing his issues, I switched his system from AVG to Windows Defender as a preventative measure. He told me after a year about how much nicer his system has been. Linux lacks that middleware to mess up the experience, which is another strength.

 

Plenty of things that Linux does well in comparison to Windows are also done well by Mac OS X. I know a few people who switched to Mac OS X for similar reasons and they have been happier too. Microsoft’s OS design is simply not very good. The main area where they did things well is in PC gaming APIs, which is in part from Microsoft sabotaging the development of cross platform APIs (e.g. project Fahrenheit) to ensure that their Windows specific APIs have an edge. As the recent news shows, that is starting to change. They also do a fairly good job at simplifying management of groups of machines, although Linux has puppet and LDAP.

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Speaking as a computer tech by trade, I've seen many people have to bring in their computers because Windows broke during an update.  Though to be fair, even with as many as we see come into our store, they're still a small percentage of the overall computer users around.

 

I find it mind numbing how many people treat windows issues as if they are mainstream/everyday.  Being able to point to an issue doesn't mean it is common. We live in a tech vacuum, we will see the worst of everything because no one gets on a forum to tell you it's been another flawless week using software X.  I am the goto for about 16 PC's (everything from my internet has stopped working to how do I google facebook, not joking).   I have yet to encounter an update failure or problem in win 10 yet.  does that mean much? not really, but alongside things like what you have said it does indicate that for the average consumer windows isn't anywhere as near as bad as people make out.

 

 

[LAwLz]

On 9/16/2019 at 11:14 PM, mr moose said:

but alongside things like what you have said it does indicate that for the average consumer windows isn't anywhere as near as bad as people make out.

I think that's a massive assumption to make. I m willing to bet that if you ask 1000 people, the majority have had some issues with their computer. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the 90% range even.

The difference here is that you are very kind towards Microsoft when defining what a "problem" is.

For example, I would say that an update resetting a bunch of settings is a problem. That have happened to every single person who had Windows 10 in the beginning. So I would say every single person who installed some of the earlier updates have had issues, unless they just so happened to keep all settings at default in which case nothing changed. You would probably not classify that as an issue but I do.

 

Another thing is that you're very quick to dismiss and come up with excuses for why certain problems aren't Microsoft's or Windows' faults. For example there is a lot of malware for Windows out there. I'd say that a lot of people have had issues with malware. When this gets brought up you might start arguing for why this isn't Microsoft's fault and how the users are the ones to blame here, but in the big picture I would say it doesn't really matter. Lots of malware is an issue that only Windows has (and Android to a certain degree). Other OSes has some malware, but by using Windows you at a much greater risk of getting infected. I would say for the average consumer, that fact makes Windows a lot worse than if it didn't have as much malware.

 

 

My point is that you can come up with lots and lots of reasons for why Windows is bad for the average consumer. It's just a question of how many excuses and shifting of blame you want to do.

If you ask me, I'd say that a GNU/Linux distro would be far better for most people than Windows, because most people only need a web browser. For browsing the web exclusively, something like Ubuntu will have more and bigger pros and Windows.

 

 

Another thing to mention is that "it's not bad" does not mean it isn't without flaws or immune to critique. There are lots and lots of areas where Windows needs improvement. It is very deeply flawed in a lot of areas. The file system for example is terrible. It's legitimately garbage by today's standards. Me criticizing that does not mean I think Windows is bad and should never be used, but what I am saying is that Windows has the potential to be better than it is today. A lot of people don't seem to be able to differentiate between "this could be better" and "this is shit nobody should use".

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

The file system for example is terrible

I still greatly prefer working with Windows permissions than I do Unix permissions, there's a lot more I can actually do security wise to customize what different groups of users can see, do, not see, traverse through etc that I can't on Unix style. It's really a non issue for home users but there is a decent amount of good things NTFS has, more so for ReFS but that's getting far out there considering Microsoft as pulled that completely away from the desktop/consumer market.

 

Gets a bit more tricky too when you have a volume that it's primary use is for Linux (NFS mount) so you provision it with Unix/POSIX style but then need to also export it via SMB as well, which requires mapping users and groups to Unix groups but you can only map to a single group, still only a problem if you need multiple different levels of access above just read-only and writers.

 

NTFS also supports Transactions (TxF), which can actually work with DTS to coordinate changes across multiple different file systems, registry and applications (i.e. SQL) to ensure everything has the same commit time and ensures end to end integrity, everything can be rolled back cleanly if required etc. Short version as Microsoft has advised they won't support this going forward as other methods exist that can achieve the same thing.

 

NTFS is actually a journaled file system too, which is why/how it can support transactions, and can be combined with VSS to make it copy-on write.

 

There's a lot of stuff in NTFS that goes unused or is off by default, much of it could do with being removed or at least pulled out of the filesystem itself. It's really not that bad and if everything used transactions resiliency during faulty hardware or power would vastly improve, but that won't happen currently.

 

NFSv4 ACLs goes a long way to giving me what I want security wise though.

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

-snip-

I didn't really mean for this to become a topic about which file system that's the best, but even you have to admit that NTFS has a lot of drawbacks compared to modern file systems like ext4, APFS, F2FS, etc. It might have some benefits (but like you said, some of it is your preference rather than maybe technical limitations) but it also has drawbacks. The fact that Windows only support NTFS for boot drives, and a handful of other file systems for mounted drives is kind of pathetic though.

It wouldn't take much work to at the very least allow Windows to read and write to other file systems.

 

 

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I didn't really mean for this to become a topic about which file system that's the best, but even you have to admit that NTFS has a lot of drawbacks compared to modern file systems like ext4, APFS, F2FS, etc. It might have some benefits (but like you said, some of it is your preference rather than maybe technical limitations) but it also has drawbacks. The fact that Windows only support NTFS for boot drives, and a handful of other file systems for mounted drives is kind of pathetic though.

It wouldn't take much work to at the very least allow Windows to read and write to other file systems.

All I want fixed, and have bloody years, is the disparity between being able to create a file longer than is then allowed to be deleted/moved. Fuck me, having to map drives down multiple levels of the file path just to delete something is so annoying, often I just jump on a mac and delete the file from there. That's like bare minimum.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

On 9/12/2019 at 1:36 PM, S w a t s o n said:

"Surely THIS is the year of the linux desktop..."

.- Blaise Pascal, 1645.

 

Completed the quote  

[mr moose]

On 9/26/2019 at 4:10 PM, LAwLz said:

I think that's a massive assumption to make.

SNIP

It's actually an observation not an assumption.  Especially when you ignore the entire context of what I said.

 

Plus this:

On 9/17/2019 at 7:14 AM, mr moose said:

 but alongside things like what you have said it does indicate that for the average consumer

 

actually means that the experiences others have mentioned lends weight to the experience I have that the average consumer doesn't experience the massive issues portrayed in these threads.

 

Anyone can point to issues they have with windows (just like they can with mac SO and Linux and DOS etc etc) but Unless you can show me some figures on failure rates or issues caused by windows and not something the end user has done then you are the one making assumptions.  I just don't see many of the issues people on this forum have with windows out where the average joe uses it.

 

 

[ryao]

On 9/26/2019 at 4:34 AM, leadeater said:

I still greatly prefer working with Windows permissions than I do Unix permissions, there's a lot more I can actually do security wise to customize what different groups of users can see, do, not see, traverse through etc that I can't on Unix style. It's really a non issue for home users but there is a decent amount of good things NTFS has, more so for ReFS but that's getting far out there considering Microsoft as pulled that completely away from the desktop/consumer market.

 

Gets a bit more tricky too when you have a volume that it's primary use is for Linux (NFS mount) so you provision it with Unix/POSIX style but then need to also export it via SMB as well, which requires mapping users and groups to Unix groups but you can only map to a single group, still only a problem if you need multiple different levels of access above just read-only and writers.

 

NTFS also supports Transactions (TxF), which can actually work with DTS to coordinate changes across multiple different file systems, registry and applications (i.e. SQL) to ensure everything has the same commit time and ensures end to end integrity, everything can be rolled back cleanly if required etc. Short version as Microsoft has advised they won't support this going forward as other methods exist that can achieve the same thing.

 

NTFS is actually a journaled file system too, which is why/how it can support transactions, and can be combined with VSS to make it copy-on write.

 

There's a lot of stuff in NTFS that goes unused or is off by default, much of it could do with being removed or at least pulled out of the filesystem itself. It's really not that bad and if everything used transactions resiliency during faulty hardware or power would vastly improve, but that won't happen currently.

 

NFSv4 ACLs goes a long way to giving me what I want security wise though.

You could use POSIX ACLs. NFSv4 ACLs are better, but they are not as well supported on Linux. The kernel support for them is fairly crippled. Samba translates NFSv4 ACLs to POSIX ACLs, but the translation is not possible to do perfectly. It works for most people though.  

[Kisai]

On 9/12/2019 at 9:36 AM, S w a t s o n said:

Surely THIS is the year of the linux desktop....

 

at least we're getting close

It will never happen, Microsoft would have to botch something up so painfully that "using Linux" looks more attractive than using MacOS X. No office in the world will inflict Linux on their employees, to do so is to destroy productivity for potentially years and have retraining costs.

 

Now a Linux-based console is probably not out of the question, and probably what both Valve and Google want ultimately. Those trashy Chromebooks are not worth the dumpsters they fill up annually. But a console that isn't behind the Playstation/Xbox in specs would be pretty nice.

[ryao]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:31 PM, Kisai said:

It will never happen, Microsoft would have to botch something up so painfully that "using Linux" looks more attractive than using MacOS X. No office in the world will inflict Linux on their employees, to do so is to destroy productivity for potentially years and have retraining costs.

Thus would suggest otherwise:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#History

 

Anyway, Linux desktop adoption is slowly increasing much like subscriber counts on Linus Tech Tips.

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, ryao said:

Thus would suggest otherwise:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#History

 

Anyway, Linux desktop adoption is slowly increasing much like subscriber counts on Linus Tech Tips.

Did you even read that page? They moved back to Windows.

Quote

• October 2017 - Once seen as a stalwart supporter of open source, the city council last week said that running a Linux-based operating system on its PCs would not be cost efficient in the long run.
• November 2017 - The city council decided that LiMux will be replaced by a Windows-based infrastructure by the end of 2020. The costs for the migration are estimated to be around 90 million Euros.

 

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/end-of-an-open-source-era-linux-pioneer-munich-confirms-switch-to-windows-10/

Quote

Politicians who supported the move at a meeting of the full council today say using Windows 10 will make it easier to source compatible applications and hardware drivers than it has been using a Linux-based OS, and will also reduce costs associated with running Windows and LiMux PCs side-by-side.

 

[Chunchunmaru_]

3 hours ago, ryao said:

Anyway, Linux desktop adoption is slowly increasing much like subscriber counts on Linus Tech Tips.

I use it as a desktop since 2012 and it drastically changed (in a better way) than I was used too, the only thing I found frustrating is desktop is still not commercially relevant except for server-specific flavours, when imo it should be

It is really strange something like Logitech G Hub has MacOS support where gaming there is TON worse at the moment, and not on Linux, luckily at least ckb-next (for the keyboard) is a really decent program, community made, and here I can even add the music visualizer effect which on Windows with iCUE is hard to achieve on the K70 RGB MK2 model where you have to modify the .xml and other crap

And drivers became really at the par with Windows with the only exception the development is a bit slower to get the drivers on the distribution, and the fallback vesa driver for the kernel mode setting sucks, you don't even have an usuable system if drivers are not totally supported, especially when missing the firmware, the driver  module itself will load anyway and the only thing you get is a black screen. Seriously? 
It's even more plug&play than windows, the drivers get updated with the system itself and it's really flawless, but THIS works like crap

[cafe]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:03 PM, RejZoR said:

Until it's as "plug and play" as on Windows it just won't catch on no matter the performance numbers. Because when you at any point expect from user to put any kind of noodle into a terminal, you've already failed.

 

I'd love to see Linux be a 100% viable gaming option, but even I as an advanced user can't be bothered constantly fiddling with bunch of stuff to play a game. And that's not an unreasonable expectation. For most people updating graphic drivers is already a feat on its own, so going far beyond that just makes it a no-no entirely.

no one said otherwise 

literally just "promise" and nothing else.

[ryao]

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Did you even read that page? They moved back to Windows.

 

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/end-of-an-open-source-era-linux-pioneer-munich-confirms-switch-to-windows-10/

 

Did you read it?

 

They successfully switched to Linux, ran everything on Linux for over a decade and were happy with it.

 

No one seems to have been clamoring for them to run Windows other than Microsoft. Microsoft had been. After years of lobbying, Microsoft succeeded in making a deal with the most recent mayor. They are spending 90 million euros that they did not need to spend to migrate to Windows. They have not fully switched to Windows yet. The migration finishes next year. Until then, they are still using Linux.

 

As for Windows making it easier for them to source compatible applications, that is certainly true. It will be easy for them to run cryptolocker ransomware now. Sometimes, being compatible can be a bad thing. 

[ryao]

6 hours ago, RelativeMono said:

no one said otherwise 

literally just "promise" and nothing else.

I would not say that Windows is immune from needing fiddling. People fiddle with a bunch of settings (especially CFG) on Windows to try to fix stutter in recent games. Getting older games like Zoo Tycoon or Shattered Union working requires more fiddling than you need on Linux. They both need fiddling for various things.

 

There will always be things that one does better than another. Linux has achieved at least “good enough” status in a number of key gaming metrics though. However, the news that it only has a 2-3% performance hit in a recent AAA Windows game has put it beyond good enough territory into effectively the same performance territory in that metric. The difference for that game is like the difference between Intel and AMD for gaming.

 

Anyway, I would say otherwise as evidenced in the preceding paragraphs. Linux does not need to be better at being Windows than Windows to be a better option for many people.

[Crowbar]

On 9/12/2019 at 10:03 AM, RejZoR said:

Until it's as "plug and play" as on Windows it just won't catch on no matter the performance numbers. Because when you at any point expect from user to put any kind of noodle into a terminal, you've already failed.

 

I'd love to see Linux be a 100% viable gaming option, but even I as an advanced user can't be bothered constantly fiddling with bunch of stuff to play a game. And that's not an unreasonable expectation. For most people updating graphic drivers is already a feat on its own, so going far beyond that just makes it a no-no entirely.

Yes, because copying text and pasting it into the terminal is so difficult. I forgot that windows newbs will make any excuse to cling to microshafts asshole at any expense because it’s still easier to be lazy then learn something despite very detailed idiot proof guides being readily available…

[jagdtigger]

12 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

Yes, because copying text and pasting it into the terminal is so difficult. I forgot that windows newbs will make any excuse to cling to microshafts asshole at any expense because it’s still easier to be lazy then learn something despite very detailed idiot proof guides being readily available…

To top it off they have shorter memory than a  goldfish, they always keep complaining about terminal while using powershell to purge preinstalled crapware is OK.....

[Crowbar]

7 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

To top it off they have shorter memory than a  goldfish, they always keep complaining about terminal while using powershell to purge preinstalled crapware is OK.....

Not to mention, dig through the registry to "remove telemetry" only to update a couple months later and have to do it all over again since windows was restored back to stock settings.

 

Also,  pretty sure that it wasn't long ago that microshaft mentioned integrating the linux kernal into windows 10.....