The tech industry is losing patience with Microsoft over Windows 10 updates / Re-release of Win 10 v1809 still plagued with issues

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, Delicieuxz said:

serving a person's workload and work-schedule is, however, something that a home computer is about. And so the software made for it and those purposes should have the functionality that serves those needs.

What is it not serving? Again you said you cant have it go down at all because its so vital to your productivity. So obviously its serving your needs.  

[Delicieuxz]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

What is it not serving? Again you said you cant have it go down at all because its so vital to your productivity. So obviously its serving your needs.  

... after moving to an edition of Windows 10 that isn't marketed for home or even small-to-medium corporate usage and taking detailed measures to ensure that it can't act the way Microsoft wants it to its own.

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

... after moving to an edition of Windows 10 that isn't marketed for home or even small-to-medium corporate usage and taking detailed measures to ensure that it can't act the way Microsoft wants it to its own.

Dude I am seriously confused on what point you are trying to make or at all what microsoft is supposed to do.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Dude I am seriously confused on what point you are trying to make or at all what microsoft is supposed to do.

You are talking to one of the biggest MS haters on the planet, MS could solve world poverty and prove they are doing nothing unethical and he would still be whinging that MS is trying to kill his goldfish with win10.

[Delicieuxz]

8 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Dude I am seriously confused on what point you are trying to make. 

Well, then were you also confused about why you suggested that Windows 10 was serving my needs? Because my comment was a direct response to that suggestion.

 

The discussion was about whether Windows 10's imposed priorities, specifically regarding its updates regime, are serving the purposes of it OS. Large and growing numbers of consumers and industry professionals say that it isn't.

 

October 2018: Critics warn Microsoft it needs to fix broken update process

October 2018: Two Windows 10 feature updates a year is too many

October 2018: Microsoft needs to refocus on Windows 10 fundamentals, not just new features

November 2018: Windows Isn’t a Service; It’s an Operating System

[Blademaster91]

7 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

... after moving to an edition of Windows 10 that isn't marketed for home or even small-to-medium corporate usage and taking detailed measures to ensure that it can't act the way Microsoft wants it to its own.

Then you'd be better using some customizable version of Linux when you treat your desktop more like a server, expecting Windows to save everything for you or never restarting your machine is something Windows isn't designed for. Windows 10 forces updates in the first place because some kept putting off updates to the point of ending up with malware because the OS was so out of date. I didn't have any noticeable issues with Win10 1809 likely because i don't do any huge changes to my OS.

[Delicieuxz]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

Then you'd be better using some customizable version of Linux when you treat your desktop more like a server, expecting Windows to save everything for you

I don't know why I'd expect Windows to save everything for me. I run plugins for that and copy my in-progress work to multiple programs specifically because Windows 10 is not reliable for respecting and preserving people's work, programs, time, settings, data, etc. And I wouldn't expect a different OS to save my work for me, either. I just wouldn't expect it to be an active threat against it, as Windows 10's updates regime has made Windows 10 towards personal work.

[mynameisjuan]

2 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Large and growing numbers of consumers and industry professionals say that it isn't.

You keep saying large and growing but in all these claims there is no proof that these problems are becoming more widespread. 

 

Yes, these update issue are being brought up on new articles more and more but that is just the news nowadays. Every problem is a fire. Google, Microsoft, Apple...all constantly having more and more issues. 

 

Yet when you talk to the average Joe, they didnt notice a thing. 

 

7 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

November 2018: Windows Isn’t a Service; It’s an Operating System

Did you read the article? 

 

 

First he says how much of a task it is to keep windows operational but why didnt he mention that until 2 years ago, people have been on microsofts ass about security and keeping the OS updated. Microsoft then moved the security route and now people want them to stop....then back and forth, back and forth. 

 

Why cant people just step back and look at the big picture. 

[mynameisjuan]

5 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Windows 10 is not reliable for respecting and preserving people's work, programs, time, settings, data, etc

5 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

And I wouldn't expect a different OS to save my work for me, either.

Please make up your mind

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, mynameisjuan said:

Are you talking servers or desktops? Because that falls under servers. 

 

If a reboot causes you that much of a hassle, then you should rethink your setup. I mean you are saying you have a bunch on un-completed, un-saved work in the browser. I mean WTF happens if your browser crashes? 

 

Your "productivity" isnt even a windows problem. The problem is you dont save anything. 

 

They are not out of touch with the real world, you and most others here think they are the world and they need to be catered too. Yeah random reboots are uncalled for, but you know that and still refuse to change your work style.

How about when I'm encoding a few TB of video and then Windows update decides that my encoding isn't important enough and reboots thereby halting progress at the very least, and potentially requiring whatever was being encoded to be restarted wasting time (and potentially an entire work day if that encoding was needed for the following day).

 

Of course there are ways to minimize downtime -- like scripting something to reboot between encodes and restart the script immediately after completion, but I shouldn't have to do that.

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, 79wjd said:

How about when I'm encoding a few TB of video and then Windows update decides that my encoding isn't important enough and reboots thereby halting progress at the very least, and potentially requiring whatever was being encoded to be restarted wasting time. 

Windows literally pops up that say hey, I need to reboot. If you ignore that its not their fault. They warned you and said I am going to reboot. 

 

Yeah it sucks, Im not going to argue that it doesnt.

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Windows literally pops up that say hey, I need to reboot. If you ignore that its not their fault. They warned you and said I am going to reboot. 

 

Yeah it sucks, Im not going to argue that it doesnt.

That doesn't change the fact that windows update should NEVER force a reboot if something is being fucking done. My computer is there to make my life easier, not to require me to work around shitty software.

[Delicieuxz]

7 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Please make up your mind

What I've said is consistent. Please pay a bit more attention and not splinter my posts to take parts of it out of context:

 

13 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

And I wouldn't expect a different OS to save my work for me, either. I just wouldn't expect it to be an active threat against it, as Windows 10's updates regime has made Windows 10 towards personal work.

 

[mynameisjuan]

4 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

That doesn't change the fact that windows update should NEVER force a reboot if something is being fucking done. My computer is there to make my life easier, not to require me to work around shitty software.

I dont get how once/twice a month reboots are requiring a part time job worth of work for people. I seriously get the popup and go to take a dump, get coffee, read the news. 

 

You and Delicieuxz act like you need to schedule your day around updates. 

[Delicieuxz]

Discontent over the updates system in Windows 10 has been present since Windows 10 released. But, as time goes on and problematic patch after problematic patch has released, many people who formerly saw nothing inherently malicious with the Windows 10 updates regime, and who maybe even advocated for it have come to realize that things cannot continue to go on as they have been.

 

These three recent articles show that industry sentiment is growing against Microsoft's Windows 10 updates regime.

 

 

October 2018: Critics warn Microsoft it needs to fix broken update process

Quote

 

"Microsoft really needs to get a handle on this. They're running out of time," said Chris Goettl, product manager with client security and management vendor Ivanti, when asked his reaction to the show-stopping problem of deleted user files. "If Microsoft wants to continue down this track of the Windows 10 [rapid release] model, its upgrades and updates must be of better quality than they have been."

 

...

 

Quality? What quality?

Calls for Microsoft to improve the quality of its upgrades and updates have been building for some time. Triggered by long stretches of problem-causing monthly updates - ironically, Microsoft dubs these, including the famous "Patch Tuesday" security releases, "quality" updates - commercial customers have been demanding that Redmond do better.

In July, patch expert Susan Bradley, a computer network and security consultant who also moderates the PatchMangement.org mailing list, implored Microsoft's senior executives to read the findings of a survey of IT professionals she conducted. That survey outlined how dissatisfied IT personnel were with the Windows patching process, in particular the updates' quality.

 

"Your customers who are in charge of patching and maintaining systems are not happy with the quality of updates ... and feel that it cannot go on as is," Bradley wrote in an open letter to Microsoft's leaders, including CEO Satya Nadella. Of the more than 1,000 respondents to her questionnaire, 64% were either "very much not satisfied" or "not satisfied" with the quality of Windows' updates.

 

Those opinions were only reinforced by 1809's stumble.

 

 

October 2018: Two Windows 10 feature updates a year is too many

Quote

 

After watching Windows 10 in the real world for more than three years, I am convinced that the current incarnation of "Windows as a service" is unsustainable and needs to change.

 

...

 

Mandatory monthly updates can be annoying, but because they're strictly compatibility and reliability fixes, it's easy to make the case for installing them. They install relatively quickly, and security updates are unlikely to mess up a stable Windows PC.

 

Feature updates are a different story. Because they are full Windows upgrades, they take much longer to install, especially on well-worn budget PCs. More importantly, each such update introduces a new set of possible compatibility and reliability problems.

 

For the people trying to get work done with a Windows 10 PC, each new feature update is an unwelcome disruption. If you're spending two, three, or four months a year dealing with teething problems for a new OS release, you're probably not a satisfied customer.

 

Ironically, the PC-owning population running Windows 10 Home is on the front line for each new release and is most likely to encounter problems that have to be ironed out with a cumulative update or two. This group is probably least equipped to troubleshoot technical problems and least likely to have professional IT help at hand. And yet, because the management tools to defer updates are available only on Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise editions, they have no choice but to install each update as it arrives.

 

 

November 2018: Windows Isn’t a Service; It’s an Operating System

Quote

 

“Windows as a Service” is failing. It’s obvious: Windows is not a service, and never was. It’s a desktop operating system, and it doesn’t need updates every six months. Even iOS and Android only get significant updates once per year.

 

...

 

No PC users asked Microsoft for Windows as a service. It was all Microsoft’s idea.

 

“Software as a service” is trendy. But these types of services are generally hosted on a remote platform, like Amazon Web Services or even Microsoft Azure. Web applications like Gmail and Facebook are services. That all makes sense—the company maintains the software, and you access it remotely.

 

An operating system that runs on millions of different hardware configurations is not a service. It can’t be updated as easily, and you’ll run into issues with hardware, drivers, and software when you change things. The upgrade process isn’t instant and transparent—it’s a big download and can take a while to install.

 

 

 

Regarding the 'Windows as a service' slogan, it should be noted that service versus product are legal distinctions that change how something can be marketed and also what the rights of possessing that thing include. Windows 10 is definitively legally a product that is marketed for sale and sold, and then bought by people like you who then own their copy of Windows 10. There is no truth to calling Windows 10 a service. It legally isn't, and it never has been. It is legally and technically a product, and so people rightfully expect their rights as owners over a product to fully be honoured by Microsoft while they use their Windows 10 OS.

 

Microsoft's own 'Windows as a service' documentation makes it clear that 'Windows as a service' refers only to Microsoft's internal development and release cycle of Windows 10 updates, and imposes (and legally cannot) no duty upon Windows 10 owners for them to regard, or expect, or treat Windows 10 as a service.

 

 

I agree with the critics: Software that a person purchases and uses is for the purpose of serving the person. However, with Microsoft's Windows 10 update regime, Microsoft is turning people's computer and owned software against them.

 

By the way, Microsoft actually do state that Windows 10 Home and Pro editions are test-beds to prepare new Windows 10 versions for widespread deployment. And so, if you buy Windows 10 Home or Pro, you're paying to have your work put at risk and to be a test subject so that Microsoft can give some larger payouts to its executives:

 

Windows 10 Servicing Branches (CB, CBB, and LTSB), Semi-Annual Channel

Quote

 

This is the latest version of Windows and is called Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted), this version receives all upgrades (new versions) and updates (patches) from Microsoft within a few days of their release. Semi-Annual Channel(Targeted) is what all home users get and what most small business corporate Pro users will get.

 

...

 

New feature update releases are initially considered as Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted) releases: organizations will use these for pilot deployments to ensure compatibility with existing apps and infrastructure. After about four months, the feature update will be declared as Semi-Annual Channel, indicating that it is ready for broad deployment.

 

 

And this is what Satya Nadella fired over 20,000 Microsoft testing engineers since 2015 for: To offload the testing of Windows 10 onto people like you who own and run Windows 10 Home and Pro.

 

I find and fully believe that is unacceptable, and so I'm running Windows 10 Enterprise right now, and will switch to Windows 10 LTSC 2019 very soon. Licenses for Windows 10 Enterprise and LTSC can be legitimately purchased for cheap from places like eBay, reddit, Craigslist.

 

[Delicieuxz]

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont get how once/twice a month reboots are requiring a part time job worth of work for people. I seriously get the popup and go to take a dump, get coffee, read the news. 

 

You and Delicieuxz act like you need to schedule your day around updates. 

Yeah, that literally does happen unless steps are taken to disable Windows Update, and that is literally the issue (that and the troubles that occur from updating).

 

Your usage of Windows is simplistic enough that the updates system in Windows 10 doesn't threaten or interfere with your work and computer usage. That's great for you, but that situation doesn't by its own define what's appropriate for an OS' updates conduct and available settings.

[79wjd]

5 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont get how once/twice a month reboots are requiring a part time job worth of work for people. I seriously get the popup and go to take a dump, get coffee, read the news. 

 

You and Delicieuxz act like you need to schedule your day around updates. 

Because I shouldn't have to break my productivity to install an update -- whether that productivity is actively doing work or letting something run overnight.

[Blademaster91]

Just now, Delicieuxz said:

Yeah, that literally does happen unless steps are taken to disable Windows Update, and that is literally the issue (that and the troubles that occur from updating).

 

Your usage of Windows is simplistic enough that the updates system in Windows 10 doesn't threaten or interfere with your work and computer usage. That's great for you, but that situation doesn't by its own define what's appropriate for an OS' updates conduct and available settings.

Except you're acting as if Windows is constantly interrupting your workflow, if you're ignoring the messages prompting you to update and not re-scheduling for when there is downtime that isn't the fault of the OS.  Completely disabling Windows Update usually breaks more than what is assumed fixing unless you move to an LTS build.

[Delicieuxz]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Except you're acting as if Windows is constantly interrupting your workflow, if you're ignoring the messages prompting you to update and not re-scheduling for when there is downtime that isn't the fault of the OS.  Completely disabling Windows Update usually breaks more than what is assumed fixing unless you move to an LTS build.

Messages to update, automatic updates, and automatic restarting all interrupt workflow, and more importantly, can risk the work itself.

 

You are not who decides when a person's downtime is and how much of it they have. My PC can be in a state of work uptime for weeks.

 

It is the natural and also legal right of every owner of a thing to make the decisions on how it can funtion - and that includes software. Therefore, it is the OS' fault if it doesn't honour that right.

 

Disabling Windows Update literally doesn't break a single thing. I don't know what gave you the idea otherwise, but it doesn't. 

[mynameisjuan]

8 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

It is the natural and also legal right of every owner of a thing to make the decisions on how it can funtion - and that includes software. Therefore, it is the OS' fault if it doesn't honour that right.

Ok this is getting ridiculous...

[Fasauceome]

There's a reason I'm switching to Linux soon. I'm even getting my hands on a server someone's dumping so that I can learn the OS and how to game on it.

[mynameisjuan]

17 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Except you're acting as if Windows is constantly interrupting your workflow, if you're ignoring the messages prompting you to update and not re-scheduling for when there is downtime that isn't the fault of the OS.  Completely disabling Windows Update usually breaks more than what is assumed fixing unless you move to an LTS build.

Exactly. I can understand if this was an ever other day thing but I mean we are talking twice a month I take two 10mins breaks to let my PC update a month. Its like these people are working around the clock. 

 

I work 8-5pm, then study on my PC from 5:30-12:00am. Take my on-call and I am working 80+ hours everyweek and studying 30 hours on top of that. I am on a PC around the clock yet these updates dont seem to bother me. 

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

 My PC can be in a state of work uptime for weeks.

 

 

Then as has been stated you are using the wrong OS.  Windows is never going to guarantee to run without interruption for weeks,  the nature of users clicking "remind me later" results in malware on the scale of wanna cry.  The average user cannot be trusted to install updates in a timely manner.  IF you need weeks of up time then you need an OS designed to do that. 

 

Do you also try to run deliveries in a mini and then blame the car manufacturer because they are not catering to your needs of a ute or truck?

 

It's right tools for the job, windows is not the right tool for you if you need your PC on that long.

[XenosTech]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I solely  used Linux for a good 3 year stint and still use Linux on the side, It is much better today with most common hardware being made to a standard, but I can assure you it is still not as good as windows for compatability with hardware in general.

Windows is designed for the average everyday joe and office work, it is not designed for people who don't save their work and refuse too power cycle. It likely never will be.

I had a timer in my keyboard macro software to remind me to restart my pc every saturday, now that the software is broken in this build I have to set it on my phone. Outside of that all the little annoyances I've had with win 10 are going away. (Taskbar occasionally bugs out still sigh.)

[mynameisjuan]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Then as has been stated you are using the wrong OS.  Windows is never going to guarantee to run without interruption for weeks,  the nature of users clicking "remind me later" results in malware on the scale of wanna cry.  The average user cannot be trusted to install updates in a timely manner.  IF you need weeks of up time then you need an OS designed to do that. 

This.