The tech industry is losing patience with Microsoft over Windows 10 updates / Re-release of Win 10 v1809 still plagued with issues

[suits]

They really need to just axe this update, give us dark mode for everything and call it good

[mynameisjuan]

7 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

I have.

 

 

I know I remember that post and people disagreed with your point of view as well.

 

Based on those conditions microsoft can still do what they want. They have every right to push updates. You really are not helping your argument. 

[Delicieuxz]

16 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I know I remember that post and people disagreed with your point of view as well.

So, you actually don't particularly remember that post, then. 

 

My point of view on the matter happens to also be widely regard as legal fact by many countries: EU Court: When You Buy Software You Own It

 

Curious, that.

 

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Based on those conditions microsoft can still do what they want. They have every right to push updates. You really are not helping your argument. 

Based on what conditions? You haven't identified any. You've simply thrown a few incoherent sentence fragments together and are acting as though you've made a point.

 

Microsoft doesn't own instances of Windows after they are sold to people. Fact. If Microsoft sells you a Windows license, then Microsoft has lost ownership over that Windows license to the person who bought that Windows license from Microsoft. Fact.

 

The word "sell" means to relinquish ownership to the buyer, and the word "buy" means to gain ownership over what was bought.

 

Additionally, Microsoft gains no ownership over any PC hardware that Windows is installed on, so Microsoft has no authority to do whatever they want to that machine, your electricity, or whatever else of your property is involved in updating and restarting a machine and in modifying the contents of your storage drives.

 

38 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Like look, we get it. You are mad because you dont save a darn thing, open a hundred tabs, dont fill out a thing and then get pissed that you lost a bunch of data and have to spend 10 mins or less running an update.

Nope. I oppose a company interfering with my work and my control over my computer and my software, which I know how to run in order to serve my purposes.

 

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Im sorry I dont know what to say. I have to deal with people like you all the time who call in and complain that they lost all their email, later to find out that they "save" their email by moving to trash.

That doesn't sound like me at all. Are you sure you aren't simply panicking for something to retort with?

 

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-Save your stuff you cant afford to lose

-Spend the few mins updating to get coffee, walk for 5 mins, check facebook

-Stop clicking postpone update

-Dont start a project when windows says hey im going to reboot in 5 mins

 

Its really not hard nor this burden you make it out to be. I dont know what else to say, especially to someone who thinks companies should bow down to you and "respect your rights" 

You keep saying that you don't know what else to say, yet you keep saying something further and sticking your foot in your mouth by doing so. If you have nothing to say, then what are you continuing to post bluffs, rhetoric, and straw man arguments for? I think I can see why, and it isn't because you have a valid argument.

[Noctus]

Currently on 1803 with no issues thankfully. No updates for me, no sir.

[mynameisjuan]

19 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Microsoft doesn't own instances of Windows after they are sold to people. Additionally, Microsoft gains no ownership over any PC hardware that Windows is installed on, so Microsoft has no authority to do whatever they want to that machine.

Never said they own your hardware but in your post it clearly states you dont own windows, its still their software and they can make any change they want. But you keep saying its your god given right to have 100% control of someone elses software. 

 

19 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Nope. I oppose a company interfering with my work and my control over my computer and my software, which I know how to run in order to serve my purposes.

Im sorry? What do you want them to say. Again, you want uptime, go linux. Everybody in their brother knows windows will reboot yet you still put your self in the same situation over and over again losing your work. 

 

19 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

That doesn't sound like me at all. Are you sure you aren't simply panicking for something to retort with?

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nd I can have up to a dozen documents open and in various stages of being worked on, as well at 120+ internet browser tabs, some with forms open and text being written into them but not completed

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I dump copy and pastes of large incomplete form information into notepad without saving the notepad.

I mean you said it yourself. Trust me I am not panicking over this argument 

 

19 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

You keep saying that you don't know what else to say, yet you keep saying something further and sticking your foot in your mouth by doing so. If you have nothing to say, then what are you continuing to post bluffs, rhetoric, and straw man arguments for? I think I can see why, and it isn't because you have a valid argument

I am saying that I dont know what else to say because you cant understand simple concepts or why certain policies are in place. You are having a midlife crisis over this when 100s of millions of other users dont have a problem with it. 

 

You keep saying that I am posting "bluffs, rhetoric, and straw man arguments" but have pointed out that people work on windows and dont lose information like you do. Where are your counter points? Saying stop posting rhetoric and straw man arguments just means you dont have a counter point. 

 

You know widows will reboot, you know you will lose all unsave information but yet you continue to do it over and over. Isnt that a sign of insanity? 

 

[D13H4RD]

My experience with the Fall Creator's 2017 update in a nutshell;

 

BSODs in a row in Forza Horizon 3

reinstalls GPU drivers

Still BSODs

69 updates later

'Magically' fixed

[Delicieuxz]

24 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Never said they own your hardware but in your post it clearly states you dont own windows, its still their software and they can make any change they want.

I'm unsure what you think you're referring to, but nowhere does it say that people don't own Windows. The IP, people don't come into ownership of when they purchase an instance of Windows. The copy of Windows that they buy, they do come into ownership of.

 

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But you keep saying its your god given right to have 100% control of someone elses software. 

This is also a strange claim, considering that's actually what you're doing: Claiming that Microsoft has some ordained right to control other people's software and computers.

 

People certainly have a right to control their own software and computers - anything that they've purchased. That has been the conclusion of top court cases in the EU, US, and Australia about software ownership and rights.

 

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Im sorry? What do you want them to say. Again, you want uptime, go linux. Everybody in their brother knows windows will reboot yet you still put your self in the same situation over and over again losing your work.

Everybody and their brother ought to also be aware that the correct editions of Windows can be configured to completely disable Windows Update so that the computer doesn't reset - and therefore those editions of Windows configured properly are as much about uninterrupted uptime as any Linux installation. However, Microsoft has fought people on this and made it more difficult in the last few years.

 

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I mean you said it yourself. Trust me I am not panicking over this argument 

You're giving that smrik after alleging that I am like people who "save" their work by moving it to the trash, while referencing me saying that I will dump some incompleted browser form content into notepad in case of a browser crashing (which is a form of saving) - though you cut out the part where I also said that I have a plugin to auto-save my browser form content (so, the content is backed-up twice over). And then this still ignores that fact that browser form content isn't document content, which is another matter.

 

And still, none of that relates to people, probably fictitious people judging by your trend, thinking they're saving their work to move it to a trash can.

 

If all your victories are dependent upon retreating into a fantasy land, then how many do you actually have?

 

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I am saying that I dont know what else to say because you cant understand simple concepts or why certain policies are in place. You are having a midlife crisis over this when 100s of millions of other users dont have a problem with it. 

When was the, or one of the reasonings for forcing updates said to be confusing or difficult to grasp? The merit or lack thereof of the concept is not itself the concept.

 

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You keep saying that I am posting "bluffs, rhetoric, and straw man arguments"

Pretty sure I said that once. You, on the other hand, have perpetually done the things I said. Here are a few of your straw-man arguments, though there are more:

 

"Please make up your mind" (after splicing a quote of mine and presenting two pieces of it out of context)
"Like look, we get it. You are mad because you dont"

"I mean you said it yourself. Trust me I am not panicking over this argument "

 

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but have pointed out that people work on windows and dont lose information like you do. Where are your counter points? Saying stop posting rhetoric and straw man arguments just means you dont have a counter point. 

Yes, people use Windows in all types of capacities, and people end up having all types of experiences. The problem is that Microsoft's hoped plan of greatly reducing in-house test engineers, offloading testing to Windows Home and Pro owners, and releasing updates on a strict bi-annual schedule, while also forcing that inadequately-tested updates on people has proven to be a dismal failure.

 

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You know widows will reboot, you know you will lose all unsave information but yet you continue to do it over and over. Isnt that a sign of insanity? 

I couldn't know that, since my Windows won't reboot.

[JoeCoke]

6 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

You know widows will reboot

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Again, you want uptime, go linux.

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If you don't like it use Linux

You make it sound like only Linux can stay on for more than a day.

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

You make it sound like only Linux can stay on for more than a day.

Any machine can be up for days on end. The more I advanced in my career the more I realize up time is a bad thing, especially on consumer grade products. 

[DrMacintosh]

I don’t understand what is so hard about giving users the power to consent over what happens on their machines. 

 

Essentially every other OS across x86 and ARM give the user the power of consent yet Windows 10 makes users bend over and take it? 

 

I get that there are security concerns but maybe leave the updates on for grandma but let people like myself switch them off? Or does that not work within Microsoft’s data mining tactics? 

[Canada EH]

4 hours ago, TetraSky said:

but after a month or two, the damn thing reactivate itself like nothing and update

That is indicative of the company policy. There is a sneaky reason why they are doing what they are doing.

 

It is too bad about Windows monopoly on their consumers.

[JoeCoke]

34 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I don’t understand what is so hard about giving users the power to consent over what happens on their machines. 

 

Essentially every other OS across x86 and ARM give the user the power of consent yet Windows 10 makes users bend over and take it? 

 

I get that there are security concerns but maybe leave the updates on for grandma but let people like myself switch them off? Or does that not work within Microsoft’s data mining tactics? 

Microsoft knows what's best for us!

[vorticalbox]

9 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

At some point OEMs and Microsoft's partners will grow tired of Windows 10 and put more effort into supporting Linux.

The linux kernel is stable and a lot of hardware is supported out of the box.

 

I think the first people to leave we developers followed shortly by offices. All linux needs is some great office software and it's a no brainer.

 

I know there is libreoffice bit that thing looks like to time jumped from 95.

[strajk-]

As someone that develops a Process Control System and that interacts/visits clients fairly often, the first question is always "Do you know how to disabled Windows Updates?".

One example is a Brewery producing, an alarm is ringing because the program running in the Universal Controllers detected that something is wrong, and you can't check any logs in the Process Control System managing this whole process to see what is actually wrong, worse is that you can't control anything afterwards because Windows 10 decided to install an update or busted an installation while doing so.

 

In these situations, the Brewery Master is forced to hit the Emergency Stop Routine to halt all production, control everything manually and wait for a Technician to analyze the issue with his PLC Development Application or wait for the PC to finish its updates in order to resume production.

 

These issues are happening all over the place and are costing companies millions to maintain, since many solutions that are currently in the market require an internet connection, so for the client leaving the System running disconnected from the internet is nowadays a nogo.

Solution would be to shut down the Windows Update Service and disable it, but apparently that service gets restarted and set to Enabled once again by Windows 10 without user consent.

 

You can't install anything less than Windows 10 either, because the ones responsible for said systems get upset by saying that their system isn't modern enough if the Project Leader goes for Windows 7 or 8.1 instead, not giving a shit that by doing the jump to Windows 10 you're compromising your system.

 

I've been to big Pharmas, Breweries, Paint Plants, Power Plants, Water Facilities...etc you name them, and every single one of them has the exact same issues "Windows 10 is compromising our production".

 

[Ashleyyyy]

12 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Trust me, windows 10 is a shit ton more functional on a shit ton more hardware than any other OS. Even hardcore linux users cant deny that.  

i've got an EliteBook 9470M. Linux runs perfectly fine. 

 

Windows 10 has driver issues, touchpad issues, the lights on the mute button etc won't work properly....

12 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Most here do. Go to any linux forums where they constantly complain that they cant get their wireless card to work or get their trackpad to even click. People who would defend that really have not tried linux on multiple systems. 

sure, linux doesn't work well on the latest hardware, Windows 10 doesn't work well on older hardware. 

[Ashleyyyy]

so i've been reading through this whole thing, and i think 3 things could solve everything. 

 

1. your browsertabs get saved upon reboot

2. all windows versions should allow updates to be stopped for at least 48 hours

3. everyone should upgrade to ssd's. then, the updates take seconds, thus not causing average users to turn them off, and then people who use their pc's for more intensive stuff can stop them for a few days. 

 

@mr moose @Delicieuxz @mynameisjuan thoughts on this conclusion?

[asus killer]

10 hours ago, Syntaxvgm said:

The really people that matter as customers (not us peons) get LTSB which with out any additional configuration gives you more control over updates and doens't ignore GP settings. For mission critical hardware, signage, etc. 

i got sick and tired of Microsoft, and on the laptop i installed a pirated LTSB, works great, i get all the security updates and no crap. Sure you miss some nice features but it's not worth it. I really don't want to format the desktop, but if i ever will i will do the same.

 

I had one of those legit keys from ebay, so i don't even thing it's piracy.

[NeuesTestament]

2 hours ago, vorticalbox said:

The linux kernel is stable and a lot of hardware is supported out of the box.

 

I think the first people to leave we developers followed shortly by offices. All linux needs is some great office software and it's a no brainer.

 

I know there is libreoffice bit that thing looks like to time jumped from 95.

I believe that when I see it. So far every couple of years there is a shitstorm over Windows in some enthusiast online forum and then nothing really happens.

For Linux it is not enough to catch up to Windows for the normal user. No normal user goes through the effort of switching to a different OS just to get something that is just as good. And normal users are 95% of the market.

If Linux would offer some really big advantage (like 30-40% more battery life) without me having to sacrifice any of the features of Windows and without me having to change my workflow, I would switch instantely.

[mr moose]

45 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

so i've been reading through this whole thing, and i think 3 things could solve everything. 

 

1. your browsertabs get saved upon reboot

2. all windows versions should allow updates to be stopped for at least 48 hours

3. everyone should upgrade to ssd's. then, the updates take seconds, thus not causing average users to turn them off, and then people who use their pc's for more intensive stuff can stop them for a few days. 

 

@mr moose @Delicieuxz @mynameisjuan thoughts on this conclusion?

 

As far as I know 2 already happens, At least mine does that, when it needs to restart i tell it to wait until I power cycle 

 

Firefox does 1 for me sometimes but I haven't gone looking for any setting for it.

 

and for 3. Everyone should set aside a part of the week to cycle their computer and run updates and virus/malware scans just as a normal routine of good PC maintenance. 

[Ashleyyyy]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As far as I know 2 already happens, At least mine does that, when it needs to restart i tell it to wait until I power cycle 

no but i mean also block the download and installation fo them. 

 

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Firefox does 1 for me sometimes but I haven't gone looking for any setting for it.

yes it remembers what tabs were open but it reloads all of them, which messes with some sites. 

 

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

and for 3. Everyone should set aside a part of the week to cycle their computer and run updates and virus/malware scans just as a normal routine of good PC maintenance. 

well the argument that i saw a lot was that casual users turn the updates off. it is my belief they do this because they take a long long time on a mechanical hdd. if everyone had ssd's, the casual users wouldn't get irritated by the updates and wouldn't turn them off. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

no but i mean also block the download and installation fo them. 

blocking the download would on be a problem if you have a serious internet issue and can't spare the data or speed. i don;t know about blocking the install other than the installs that require a restart tell me that and give me the option to delay the install.

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

yes it remembers what tabs were open but it reloads all of them, which messes with some sites. 

I don't think that is possible, or would likely require some sort of standards to be implemented.  I'm not the best person to consider this, i hate web development. anything more complex than html and a data base query and it may as well be another language.

 

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

well the argument that i saw a lot was that casual users turn the updates off. it is my belief they do this because they take a long long time on a mechanical hdd. if everyone had ssd's, the casual users wouldn't get irritated by the updates and wouldn't turn them off. 

They do it for many reasons, but that is the main problem and why MS has forced updates.  As I said earlier, I have everything set to recommended and power cycle my pc daily. I've only had one forced restart that caused me annoyance in the 3 years. for me the argument about forced updates is rather moot because I have yet to experience any of the problems other seem to.  Mind you I do have an SSD, I've had it for almost 8 years now, i thought they were basically standard.

[Delicieuxz]

1 hour ago, firelighter487 said:

so i've been reading through this whole thing, and i think 3 things could solve everything. 

 

1. your browsertabs get saved upon reboot

2. all windows versions should allow updates to be stopped for at least 48 hours

3. everyone should upgrade to ssd's. then, the updates take seconds, thus not causing average users to turn them off, and then people who use their pc's for more intensive stuff can stop them for a few days. 

 

@mr moose @Delicieuxz @mynameisjuan thoughts on this conclusion?

 

Well, no matter how quick the process becomes, the interruption to workflow and having things open and laid-out particular ways is still going to make not rushing to update a thing. And there really is no reason to have an update as soon as it's released.

 

For me, a bigger help would be if people could install security-only updates, as used to be the case with previous editions of Windows.

 

As for people saying that Microsoft wants to not have to support older versions of Windows, that doesn't appear to be a solid argument because the security updates for Windows 7, 8, and 10 are practically identical, reflecting the under-the-hood similarity between the OSes and suggesting that Microsoft will still be developing the same security updates regardless of whether older Windows and Windows 10 versions expire from support or not.

[Delicieuxz]

1 hour ago, strajk- said:

As someone that develops a Process Control System and that interacts/visits clients fairly often, the first question is always "Do you know how to disabled Windows Updates?".

One example is a Brewery producing, an alarm is ringing because the program running in the Universal Controllers detected that something is wrong, and you can't check any logs in the Process Control System managing this whole process to see what is actually wrong, worse is that you can't control anything afterwards because Windows 10 decided to install an update or busted an installation while doing so.

 

In these situations, the Brewery Master is forced to hit the Emergency Stop Routine to halt all production, control everything manually and wait for a Technician to analyze the issue with his PLC Development Application or wait for the PC to finish its updates in order to resume production.

 

These issues are happening all over the place and are costing companies millions to maintain, since many solutions that are currently in the market require an internet connection, so for the client leaving the System running disconnected from the internet is nowadays a nogo.

Solution would be to shut down the Windows Update Service and disable it, but apparently that service gets restarted and set to Enabled once again by Windows 10 without user consent.

 

You can't install anything less than Windows 10 either, because the ones responsible for said systems get upset by saying that their system isn't modern enough if the Project Leader goes for Windows 7 or 8.1 instead, not giving a shit that by doing the jump to Windows 10 you're compromising your system.

 

I've been to big Pharmas, Breweries, Paint Plants, Power Plants, Water Facilities...etc you name them, and every single one of them has the exact same issues "Windows 10 is compromising our production".

 

That's interesting.

 

If you have use of any more ways to disable Windows Update, take a look at this post here:

 

 

And if you know of any additional ways to turn off Windows Update, I hope that you'll share them and I'll add them to the list.

[Ashleyyyy]

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

blocking the download would on be a problem if you have a serious internet issue and can't spare the data or speed. i don;t know about blocking the install other than the installs that require a restart tell me that and give me the option to delay the install.

well it sometimes annoys me. i'll be playing a game and all of a sudden my ping gets like double, and i think it has to do with Windows downloading updates. 

 

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I don't think that is possible, or would likely require some sort of standards to be implemented.  I'm not the best person to consider this, i hate web development. anything more complex than html and a data base query and it may as well be another language.

i can set my pc to hibernate, and then turn it back on and everything is still there. i'm talking about similar functionality built into the browser, so that if it gets closed suddenly all of my stuff is saved. 

 

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They do it for many reasons, but that is the main problem and why MS has forced updates.  As I said earlier, I have everything set to recommended and power cycle my pc daily. I've only had one forced restart that caused me annoyance in the 3 years. for me the argument about forced updates is rather moot because I have yet to experience any of the problems other seem to.  Mind you I do have an SSD, I've had it for almost 8 years now, i thought they were basically standard.

ssd's aren't standard just yet, not in low cost laptops. and that's what the casual users mostly buy so... 

 

i don't like forced updates, because i don't like my pc installing stuff i didn't ask it to.

 

10 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Well, no matter how quick the process becomes, the interruption to workflow and having things open and laid-out particular ways is still going to make not rushing to update a thing. And there really is no reason to have an update as soon as it's release.

i'm not disagreeing with that, but in my opinion the thing that bugs me the most about rebooting is all my browsertabs reloading. 

 

10 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

For me, a bigger help would be if people could install security-only updates, as used to be the case with previous editions of Windows.

that would be nice indeed. 

 

10 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

As for people saying that Microsoft wants to not have to support older versions of Windows, that doesn't appear to be a solid argument because the security updates for Windows 7, 8, and 10 are practically identical, reflecting the under-the-hood similarity between the OSes and suggesting that Microsoft will still be developing the same security updates regardless of whether older Windows and Windows 10 versions expire from support or not.

as far as i know there's no real reason why MS can't support older versions of 10... it's the same OS after all... 

Edited November 21, 2018 by firelighter487
typo

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

well it sometimes annoys me. i'll be playing a game and all of a sudden my ping egts like double, and i think it has to do with Windows downloading updates. 

That sucks. 
Companies like MS (and all online services) need to understand not everyone has 15+Mb/s connections.