Windows 11 - Here is everything you need to know - OUT NOW!!!

[GoodBytes]

11 minutes ago, StDragon said:

My spidey sense tells me they're going the path of their own "Notepad++".

Don't think so. They already have one it's called VS Code which is superior to Notepad++

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

VS Code which is superior to Notepad++

That is a gross understatement. VS Code took us all by surprise and left us baffled.

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Oh wow, they even screwed up little things Microsoft. I used to drop shortcut to Notepad into shell:sendto so I could quickly open binary files with text editor and fiddle with them. Microsoft moved Notepad to UWP garbage pile because Notepad totally needs to be updates so regularly it has to be UWP thing now. And because it's UWP app, I can't point a shortcut to it which means I can't use it to edit any file anymore. Holy f**king s**t Microsoft.

 

Now I'll have to install a 3rd party app just to do this. Idiotic beyond belief.

I just checked: 
You have Notepad under C:\Windows\notepad.exe

 

[RejZoR]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I just checked: 
You have Notepad under C:\Windows\notepad.exe

 

But that's probably like some sort of legacy exe or something?

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

How do you know it has been terribly written? You have NO IDEA on the decisions, time constraints, goals, risk analysis and cost analysis discussions. All you are doing are clueless assumptions. Where is your source that it is terrible?

Because I actually look into things before commenting on them.

Kind of like how I explained how the new file explorer works, to which you just denied it and then I had to prove it to you.

 

The problem is that it is terribly written in lots of ways, and you can't really just say "they were time constrained and cost constrained" and that somehow makes it fine. The code and architecture is still shit, regardless of the reasons for it. 

If you release a shitty product you can't just go "well making it good would have required too much time and money so we didn't do that".

 

 

  

7 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Don't think so. They already have one it's called VS Code which is superior to Notepad++

I don't think it's fair to say VS Code is superior to Notepad++.

If Notepad++ is a really high quality screwdriver then VSCode is an electric screwdriver.

It's big and clunky, but if you need some of its things then it is better. As a Notepad replacement, Notepad++ is way better if you ask me because VSCode is so resource heavy (because it is extremely poorly optimized).

[Kilrah]

8 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Oh wow, they even screwed up little things Microsoft. I used to drop shortcut to Notepad into shell:sendto so I could quickly open binary files with text editor and fiddle with them. Microsoft moved Notepad to UWP garbage pile because Notepad totally needs to be updates so regularly it has to be UWP thing now. And because it's UWP app, I can't point a shortcut to it which means I can't use it to edit any file anymore. Holy f**king s**t Microsoft.

 

Now I'll have to install a 3rd party app just to do this. Idiotic beyond belief.

You can make shortcuts to UWP apps, I've made one for Whatsapp Desktop to put in startup. 

[RejZoR]

24 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

You can make shortcuts to UWP apps, I've made one for Whatsapp Desktop to put in startup. 

How? I'd also need one for Paint.NET. It used to be simple to just Send To on image files and edit it, I haven't been able to do so since I bought Paint.NET and you could only do that on Microsoft Store.

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Because I actually look into things before commenting on them.

Kind of like how I explained how the new file explorer works, to which you just denied it and then I had to prove it to you.

 

The problem is that it is terribly written in lots of ways, and you can't really just say "they were time constrained and cost constrained" and that somehow makes it fine. The code and architecture is still shit, regardless of the reasons for it. 

If you release a shitty product you can't just go "well making it good would have required too much time and money so we didn't do that".

You still didn't say how you know it's terribly written or in what way that impacts the user experience. Just that you "looked into it". Yet i see you saying that in every W11 thread i open.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

You still didn't say how you know it's terribly written or in what way that impacts the user experience. Just that you "looked into it". Yet i see you saying that in every W11 thread i open.

Here is one example which I mentioned in this thread:

  

On 10/4/2021 at 11:14 PM, LAwLz said:

No, that is actually how it works. I can prove this.

If you block the shell extension "e2bf9676-5f8f-435c-97eb-11607a5bedf7" from running, and then restart Explorer, you get the old file Explorer back.

The shell extension is called "Ribbon Modern Share Verb" and is part of the ntshrui.dll file.

 

And yes, it is loaded in safe mode as well.

 

 

 

But yes, you're right that from some "flows", you get the old Explorer as well, such as if you go from the control panel to file explorer.

That does not change the fact that the new explorer UI is essentially running on top of the old one though. You might say it's so that they can share code base between 10 and 11, but honestly, with all the resources Microsoft has it is really too much to ask that they actually do things properly and not just stack all their new stuff on top of the old stuff?

 

As a result of Microsoft building the new file explorer on top of the old one, we get lower performance (yes, this does impact the user experience a lot, and you can find endless amounts of people complaining about it in Windows 11 threads on for example Reddit) and we get issues like the new explorer not always showing up (because the shell extension isn't always loaded).

 

Is that the kind of example you wanted? Because I got plenty more, such as Teams being extremely bloated. They managed to cut memory usage in half by switching the framework they built it in, and it's still very resource intense for what it does. If you can reduce memory usage by half, then it was not good to begin with. Agree?

 

If you want another example, did you know that legacy-Edge is still embedded in Windows because Microsoft has built things that relies on it? So even though Microsoft has officially abandoned legacy-Edge, they still have to ship it and use it because they have tied things to it that can't be fully migrated over to the Chromium based Edge. Yet another example of Microsoft just stacking more and more crap on top of old crap because of poor design decisions.

 

 

These are all very recent things as well, and not just me saying "their legacy code is bad", because if I were to talk about that then it would be too easy. If you want an example of that just take a look at the control panel, which they still haven't been able to migrate to Settings because it is such a clusterfuck of poorly documented and obscure code written in the 90's by people who no longer work for Microsoft. 

[Kilrah]

All of that is called "software development".

 

If you want everything perfect it never comes out. How many currently maintained apps on linux still depend on python 2 that has been deprecated for more than a year, after that was pushed from 2015, with an announcement in 2008?

[Stahlmann]

27 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

As a result of Microsoft building the new file explorer on top of the old one, we get lower performance (yes, this does impact the user experience a lot, and you can find endless amounts of people complaining about it in Windows 11 threads on for example Reddit) and we get issues like the new explorer not always showing up (because the shell extension isn't always loaded).

I'm avoiding reddit whenever possible and i didn't encounter this problem myself, so i didn't know about that one.

 

27 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Is that the kind of example you wanted? Because I got plenty more, such as Teams being extremely bloated. They managed to cut memory usage in half by switching the framework they built it in, and it's still very resource intense for what it does. If you can reduce memory usage by half, then it was not good to begin with. Agree?

Agree. 

 

27 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

If you want another example, did you know that legacy-Edge is still embedded in Windows because Microsoft has built things that relies on it? So even though Microsoft has officially abandoned legacy-Edge, they still have to ship it and use it because they have tied things to it that can't be fully migrated over to the Chromium based Edge. Yet another example of Microsoft just stacking more and more crap on top of old crap because of poor design decisions.

Legacy edge doesn't exist (at least it's not visibe to me) on my PC and i just installed the public W11 release yesterday.

 

27 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

These are all very recent things as well, and not just me saying "their legacy code is bad", because if I were to talk about that then it would be too easy. If you want an example of that just take a look at the control panel, which they still haven't been able to migrate to Settings because it is such a clusterfuck of poorly documented and obscure code written in the 90's by people who no longer work for Microsoft. 

Tbf all the options i need are mirgated to the new settings. So far i didn't need the control panel once. I was a little worried when they announced they want to completely remove it in W11, but now i think it's just not needed anymore. At least not for my use case.

[StDragon]

This was a surprise to see this morning. Say it ain't so Microsoft! lol, right, because my 7gen PC will never be running Windows 11, why bother listing this in Windows Updates? Ain't gonna happen.

If anyone knows how to suppress this "error" from showing up again, please do tell. It's annoying. 

 

 

 

 

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, Kilrah said:

All of that is called "software development".

 

If you want everything perfect it never comes out. How many currently maintained apps on linux still depend on python 2 that has been deprecated for more than a year, after that was pushed from 2015, with an announcement in 2008?

I'm not asking for perfection. I am asking for things to not be shit.

Also, please don't try and pull some "whataboutism" on me. I am talking about Windows and its issues. GNU/Linux has issues as well. The very unstable ABI could for example be seen as an issue in some cases (probably most cases). GNU/Linux is not perfectly either.

But it should honestly be embarrassing for a company as large as Microsoft to not even be able to get basic stuff right.

 

I think Microsoft suffers heavily from the mindset that they can use tools like Electron (or in the case of Explorer, shell extensions) because they are easy to develop with and then get away with lackluster optimization and poor performance because hardware is so fast that it will carry their inefficiencies. But that's not what we should expect from the biggest software company in the world. I think we should hold them to higher standards. 

 

I mean just take VS Code as an example since that was mentioned before.

I've seen VS Code use 20 times as much resources as Sublime. Let me repeat that. If Sublime is open and uses 20 MB of memory, opening the same file in VS Code could end up using 400 MB. 

You might say "well I got 32GB of memory so it doesn't matter", but it does matter. It matters for things like responsiveness, and it matters because this mentality and development strategy is used everywhere.

Right now Teams uses 1,2GB on my computer. I wouldn't be surprised if it could go down to like 200MB if it wasn't so poorly coded. Once you start adding up all their programs that are this bad, it becomes a lot. Not just memory usage either but also CPU usage.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Legacy edge doesn't exist (at least it's not visibe to me) on my PC and i just installed the public W11 release yesterday.

The browser is gone, but the embedded version and runtime still exists.

Basically, in an attempt to get web developers to write UWP programs, Microsoft embedded a version of Edge into Windows, so that developers could call on it for their programs, and it could be updated separately from the regular Edge browser.

Well, as we all know, Edge (edgeHTML) got scrapped got scrapped in favor of Edge (Chromium). But since Microsoft had already told developers to use the embedded EdgeHTML for their apps, they couldn't just scrap that. That could have resulted in broken apps. As a result, they were now stuck with developing both Edge for the embedded version (used by UWP apps) and Edge, the Chromium based browser.

The old embedded Edge (EdgeHTML) is slowly being replaced by something Microsoft calls WebView2, which is basically the same thing but based on Edge (Chromium) instead. Like a fork of Electron.

 

 

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Tbf all the options i need are mirgated to the new settings. So far i didn't need the control panel once. I was a little worried when they announced they want to completely remove it in W11, but now i think it's just not needed anymore. At least not for my use case.

Wish I could say the same thing, but that's besides the point.

My point is that they have been trying to migrate everything over to Settings for over 6 years now, and they are still nowhere near done.

From what I've heard from developers at Microsoft, a lot of that has to do with the control panel and the underlying settings and hooks being old, outdated, poorly documented and confusing code from like 20 years ago. Which is not too hard to believe. 

[HarryNyquist]

1 hour ago, StDragon said:

This was a surprise to see this morning. Say it ain't so Microsoft! lol, right, because my 7gen PC will never be running Windows 11, why bother listing this in Windows Updates? Ain't gonna happen.

If anyone knows how to suppress this "error" from showing up again, please do tell. It's annoying. 

 

 

 

 

I remember when someone told me on this forum that we wouldn't be pestered by M$ insisting we update to Windows 11 because of the compatibility problems.

 

Yet, here we are.

 

Clicking the X will minimize it to the right sidebar, but it's still there. Hilarious.

Counting down the days till I can jump ship from this horrible OS.

[LAwLz]

@Kilrah @Stahlmann

Here is another example.

 

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362

 

 

The TL;DR is this:

1) Experienced developer posts about performance issues in the Windows Terminal. Rendering per-character color output (for example, like this, is 40 times slower than single-color output, on GNU/Linux it's about 60-80 times slower). Some users were measuring 2-3 FPS, which I guess is not really an issue in a CLI, but it still indicates that something is very wrong, especially since it's suppose to be hardware accelerated.

2) One developer from Microsoft comments that rendering color is simply more computationally expensive and while they can probably optimize the Windows Terminal a bit, there isn't much they can do.

3) There is some back and forth. Microsoft dev explains how the Windows Terminal works. Some other devs chip in and give suggestions and so on. But overall the message is that "it's fast enough for daily usage".

4) Some outside developer posts a change (a patch to the Windows Terminal) that increases performance by 200%.

5) The Microsoft developer comes back and says that people underestimate how hard text rendering is hard to get working at all, much less get it working and performing well.

6) The person who wrote the original issue comes back and asks what exactly is hard, and gives suggestions on how to improve the implementation to be faster and accurate.

7) Some other Microsoft dev jumps in and says what essentially amounts to "text rendering is hard because the way we chose to do it is very complicated".

8 ) Some more back and forth and the original OP questions the way the Windows Terminal team has been design and what "fixes" Microsoft thinks will be good. The OP suggests a different way of rendering text that would be way faster.

9) The Microsoft developer replies that:

Quote

I believe what you’re doing is describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation as “extremely simple” somewhat combatively.

 

10) The OP thought it was preposterous that Microsoft claimed that such a simple thing was described as "an entire doctorial research project". So he spent a couple of days writing his own terminal that supports the same things as Microsoft's text renderer, and his terminal gets THOUSANDS of FPS. Remember, Microsoft's terminal got 2-3 FPS and they said making it better was not that important since it was "fast enough", and it would be way too hard to fix.

Here is a Twitter thread about it:

 

Then someone posted this to his GitHub repo: "Consider a more permissive license so the folks at MS can use your PhD dissertation"

 

It's worth noting that it wasn't just one Microsoft developer that thought "it's good enough, making it better is too hard". There was like 3-4 Microsoft developers all telling Casey this. It's most likely the entire team that thinks this way, and not just the Windows Terminal team but all teams at Microsoft.

 

 

Edit: Judging by some comments I've seen in that thread, and some other threads on the Windows Terminal GitHub, it seems like Microsoft are actually implementing something similar to what Casey wrote.

It's just sad that they were going to settle for "good enough" and said that doing it in some other way was too hard, until someone did it in like one work day.

 

 

This was just an example, and an example we know about because Microsoft has open sourced the Windows Terminal. Imagine how many times things like these happen (Microsoft developers making shitty code and then going "it's good enough" or "doing it in another way would be too hard for us") in other places of the OS.

 

[Mnky313]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:41 AM, LAwLz said:

-snip-

They also removed the ability to show seconds on the taskbar clock.

My main complaints with the new taskbar/start menu is both Open Shell and T-Clock (Redux) don't work properly anymore.
T-Clock doesn't do anything & Open shell doesn't remove the original start button, the easiest work around is make the new start button larger to cover the windows one which does work but it takes some tinkering to get it to look right.

I'm sure these will work in the future once they get updated but it just sucks that Microsoft couldn't just add simple options like seconds on the taskbar or the ability to do anything with the useless windows 11 start menu.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

@Kilrah @Stahlmann

Here is another example.

 

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362

 

Well, it's open source, it's called making a branch... he can do this.

He isn't. I see that he uses the GPU, which is fine, until you have no GPU drivers loaded. That means that the user would need to use the old command prompt under Safe Mode. If the GPU drivers crashes during run (say you are doing something with the GPU) then you have another problem, of not seeing the output anymore Which could be fine, but I don't think it currently aligns with Microsoft current goals.

 

This is Waterfox all over again. Waterfox was a 64-bit version of Firefox which Mozilla had no interest in working on at the time. At the time, it didn't align with their goals. But for those interested, you had that branch which was nicely supported. Over time Firefox implemented 64-bit support.

 

[GoodBytes]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I'm not asking for perfection. I am asking for things to not be shit.

Also, please don't try and pull some "whataboutism" on me. I am talking about Windows and its issues. GNU/Linux has issues as well. The very unstable ABI could for example be seen as an issue in some cases (probably most cases). GNU/Linux is not perfectly either.

But it should honestly be embarrassing for a company as large as Microsoft to not even be able to get basic stuff right.

I looked into it. And you are wrong.

What you fail to note is that Microsoft can now issue GUI updates via the Store, and not tied to OS release.

If you look carefully with people not getting some elements of explorer shell not being Windows 11 ones, is because they upgraded Windows 10 to 11 and Windows Feature Experience Pack wasn't updated for some reason. If I were to guess, as it seem to only affect some people who seems to modify their Windows, they probably got those wonderful "debloater" malware's, which removed the Store from fetching the latest version of Windows Feature Experience Pack to enable Win11 feature sets.

 

Assuming Windows Feature Experience Pack underlining system is complete, it allows Microsoft to improve the GUI experience to some extent via Store updates, and not have people wait a full year to get them or even longer if they are on Win11 corp computer. 

 

But I guess, this is a horrible design by your book. 

 

Quote

I think Microsoft suffers heavily from the mindset that they can use tools like Electron (or in the case of Explorer, shell extensions) because they are easy to develop with and then get away with lackluster optimization and poor performance because hardware is so fast that it will carry their inefficiencies. But that's not what we should expect from the biggest software company in the world. I think we should hold them to higher standards. 

Separating things has a cost to performance. There is no way around. It affects Linux based OSs as well.

Computers are plenty fast enough to afford this luxury. High-end phones are already there, and growing med range phone are also. Once low-end phone will reach those levels, I won't be surprised if Google changes Android to no longer have the need to have drivers and firmware baked into the OS, allowing users to get longer or better support. No longer at the merci of the manufacture. Google has been separating things under Android for a while, taking advantage of faster SoCs we now have.

 

Using frameworks, is the same as game engines. Sure there is a costs as you are loading stuff that you may not use, and optimization of the engine/framework might and most likely not perfectly align with your application. The advantage is that you don't need to reinvent the wheel multiple times, and deal with potential security issues, and more. You have people working on making the framework its best, by people who specializes with it.

 

 

Quote

I mean just take VS Code as an example since that was mentioned before.

I've seen VS Code use 20 times as much resources as Sublime. Let me repeat that. If Sublime is open and uses 20 MB of memory, opening the same file in VS Code could end up using 400 MB. 

VS Code is also more advanced than Sublime. But Ok. Are we going to compare against Notepad too?

VS Code is hugely popular for a reason. It took over Sublime users. Yes, Sublime has its advantages. Use what best fits your needs. Simple as that.

 

Quote

You might say "well I got 32GB of memory so it doesn't matter", but it does matter. It matters for things like responsiveness, and it matters because this mentality and development strategy is used everywhere.

Right now Teams uses 1,2GB on my computer. I wouldn't be surprised if it could go down to like 200MB if it wasn't so poorly coded. Once you start adding up all their programs that are this bad, it becomes a lot. Not just memory usage either but also CPU usage.

Why did you get 32GB of RAM in the first place?

I see Linux users also equipping their system with 32GB of RAM. Considering the success of VS Code, you can see how much people care. They don't. RAM is inexpensive, we have plenty of, and we want to use it.

 

Quote

The browser is gone, but the embedded version and runtime still exists.

Basically, in an attempt to get web developers to write UWP programs, Microsoft embedded a version of Edge into Windows, so that developers could call on it for their programs, and it could be updated separately from the regular Edge browser.

Well, as we all know, Edge (edgeHTML) got scrapped got scrapped in favor of Edge (Chromium). But since Microsoft had already told developers to use the embedded EdgeHTML for their apps, they couldn't just scrap that. That could have resulted in broken apps. As a result, they were now stuck with developing both Edge for the embedded version (used by UWP apps) and Edge, the Chromium based browser.

The old embedded Edge (EdgeHTML) is slowly being replaced by something Microsoft calls WebView2, which is basically the same thing but based on Edge (Chromium) instead. Like a fork of Electron.

I see. So Microsoft should pull an Apple... seem to kinda so that with Win11, and you are complaining about it. Make sense to me.

 

Quote

From what I've heard from developers at Microsoft, a lot of that has to do with the control panel and the underlying settings and hooks being old, outdated, poorly documented and confusing code from like 20 years ago. Which is not too hard to believe. 

The way coding was done 20-30 years ago, is drastically different than today.

It's called experience. What was thought to be OK turned out to not be good.  People improve on things. Shocking I know.

Expect things to continue to change.

 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Well, it's open source, it's called making a branch... he can do this.

He isn't.

Well he did release the source code for it under the GPL. But I am not sure what your point is. As he said himself:

Quote

If Microsoft wants to use the code they are welcome to pay for it. I find it somewhat off-putting to suggest that people should do all the work for Microsoft for free, and then cater to Microsoft's licensing needs.

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

I see that he uses the GPU, which is fine, until you have no GPU drivers loaded. That means that the user would need to use the old command prompt under Safe Mode. If the GPU drivers crashes during run (say you are doing something with the GPU) then you have another problem, of not seeing the output anymore Which could be fine, but I don't think it currently aligns with Microsoft current goals.

Can I ask you something? Can you please stop jumping in and defending Microsoft when you don't understand the situation or what you're talking about? I find it kind of annoying.

Windows Terminal, the software Microsoft has released, uses the GPU too. Why comment on things when it is obvious you didn't even read the links I posted? Read things, do research, and then comment, please. It's annoying having to correct a bunch of misinformation all the time. It's literally in the 4th reply in the GitHub thread.

Besides, I find your arguments to be terrible even if those things were somehow unique issues to the RefTerm, because you're basically saying "we shouldn't ask for 100,000% performance increase because if we boot into safe mode we would have to use the old cmd". That's stupid. Might as well not use the GPU at all in that case because if we boot into safe mode it might not be usable. Hardware accelerated GUI in Windows? Nahh, not worth it because if we boot into safe mode or have a driver crash it won't work. 

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Well he did release the source code for it under the GPL. But I am not sure what your point is. As he said himself:

All I see is a butt hurt person because his code wasn't accepted.

 

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Can I ask you something? Can you please stop jumping in and defending Microsoft when you don't understand the situation or what you're talking about? I find it kind of annoying.

Windows Terminal, the software Microsoft has released, uses the GPU too.

Yes, and has a full framework with fallback support.

 

 

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Why comment on things when it is obvious you didn't even read the links I posted? Read things, do research, and then comment, please.

Look who is talking. 

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

 

It's annoying having to correct a bunch of misinformation all the time. It's literally in the 4th reply in the GitHub thread.

Same here.

 

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Besides, I find your arguments to be terrible even if those things were somehow unique issues to the RefTerm, because you're basically saying "we shouldn't ask for 100,000% performance increase because if we boot into safe mode we would have to use the old cmd".

That decision is Microsoft's one. If there is a policy that everything needs to perfectly match, then it is what it is. Their loss. Maybe the author of the code should be professional and step back and analyse why it got rejected, instead of complaining. 

 

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

That's stupid. Might as well not use the GPU at all in that case because if we boot into safe mode it might not be usable. Hardware accelerated GUI in Windows? Nahh, not worth it because if we boot into safe mode or have a driver crash it won't work. 

They are proper ways of doing things. His simply didn't align with the MS at the moment. Simple as that.

[Forbidden Wafer]

22 hours ago, RejZoR said:

because Notepad totally needs to be updates so regularly it has to be UWP thing now

It is to SaVe Up SoMe DiSk SpAcE.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

I looked into it. And you are wrong.

What you fail to note is that Microsoft can now issue GUI updates via the Store, and not tied to OS release.

If you look carefully with people not getting some elements of explorer shell not being Windows 11 ones, is because they upgraded Windows 10 to 11 and Windows Feature Experience Pack wasn't updated for some reason. If I were to guess, as it seem to only affect some people who seems to modify their Windows, they probably got those wonderful "debloater" malware's, which removed the Store from fetching the latest version of Windows Feature Experience Pack to enable Win11 feature sets.

 

Assuming Windows Feature Experience Pack underlining system is complete, it allows Microsoft to improve the GUI experience to some extent via Store updates, and not have people wait a full year to get them or even longer if they are on Win11 corp computer. 

 

But I guess, this is a horrible design by your book. 

I am not sure what you are referring to here. What exactly was I wrong about?

That the new explorer is a shell extension that runs on top of the old explorer? Because I am not wrong about that, and I even told you how to verify it for yourself.

Or are you saying I was wrong about some people running into instances where the old explorer shows up even on Windows 11? Because 1) That wasn't my point, that was more of a side note and 2) I'd like a source on it only happening to people that have modified their Windows 11 installs. You yourself even said that from some "flows" you get the old one, such as when you go from the control panel.

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Separating things has a cost to performance. There is no way around. It affects Linux based OSs as well.

Not sure what you are referring to here. Are you talking about how I called a lot of Microsoft programs bloated, for example VS Code? Yes, separating things often increase resource usage, but how much extra resources are required depends on the implementation. Like I said earlier, Microsoft literally halved the memory usage of Teams by their own admissions just by dumping Electron and using WebView2 instead.

https://tomtalks.blog/2021/06/microsoft-teams-2-0-will-use-half-the-memory-dropping-electron-for-edge-webview2/

 

That if anything proves that there are better or worse ways of doing "separation" as you call it. 

I wonder what performance would be like if Microsoft put some effort into it and developed it using something like Qt or Xamarin. Maybe it'd be like 1/4 of the current memory usage?

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Computers are plenty fast enough to afford this luxury. High-end phones are already there, and growing med range phone are also. Once low-end phone will reach those levels, I won't be surprised if Google changes Android to no longer have the need to have drivers and firmware baked into the OS, allowing users to get longer or better support. No longer at the merci of the manufacture. Google has been separating things under Android for a while, taking advantage of faster SoCs we now have.

1) Computers aren't fast enough to afford this luxury. I can definingly notice that for example VS Code is significantly slower and less responsive than Sublime for example.

2) Even if they were, that's still not an excuse to write shitty, underperforming code.

3) Even if software runs "good enough", is that really what we should expect from the world's biggest software maker? I think we should hold Microsoft to a slightly higher standard than "it works well enough". They are the second biggest company in the world for crying out loud. I would certainly not be pleased with Apple if they released a phone that had a "good enough" screen, a "good enough" camera, and a "good enough" CPU. I want the leaders of the industry to actually lead, not to be lazy and put in the minimum amount of effort.

 

Also, Google has already made a lot of these changes you are talking about with Android. But it's not because the hardware is finally fast enough to do it. It has to do with other things, such as the OS just not being read for it, because it requires a lot of work (because of the unstable ABI in Linux, and because it requires SoC manufacturers to actually agree to it).

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Using frameworks, is the same as game engines. Sure there is a costs as you are loading stuff that you may not use, and optimization of the engine/framework might and most likely not perfectly align with your application. The advantage is that you don't need to reinvent the wheel multiple times, and deal with potential security issues, and more. You have people working on making the framework its best, by people who specializes with it.

Bahahaha

You can't be serious.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

VS Code is also more advanced than Sublime. But Ok. Are we going to compare against Notepad too?

VS Code is hugely popular for a reason. It took over Sublime users. Yes, Sublime has its advantages. Use what best fits your needs. Simple as that.

"More advanced" how exactly?

Also, are you seriously suggesting that VS Code became more popular than Sublime because it is better (aka argumentum ad populum) and not because it has the backing of the second largest company in the world, and because Sublime costs 100 dollars while VS Code is free? You don't think those two details have anything to do with why VS Code is more popular?

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Why did you get 32GB of RAM in the first place?

I see Linux users also equipping their system with 32GB of RAM. Considering the success of VS Code, you can see how much people care. They don't. RAM is inexpensive, we have plenty of, and we want to use it.

Why do you keep bringing up Linux? I feel like you are trying really hard to pull of whataboutism. Why do I have 32GB of memory? Because I need to use programs from developers like Microsoft and as a result I need to have ridiculous specs in my PC to have it run decently. If developers actually gave two shits then I would not need it.

(another reason I got it is for bragging rights but let's not mention that)

That's also the kind of lazy mindset that leads to these horribly written programs that uses way more resources than they should, and are unresponsive. "Dev time is more expensive than CPU time".

Well, not only did Casey prove that it wasn't about development time. It was about a lack of knowledge and skill from Microsoft's developers.

Why should programs be much slower and more resource intense than they need to? Is "we have lots of RAM" really an excuse to make poorly written programs? We have plenty of electricity and water too but that does not mean I waste it for no reason.

It is honestly mind boggling that you are defending poorly written and poorly performing software because you think it's oaky to waste resources if we have plenty of them. Why not, you know, NOT waste resources to begin with? Then we would have even more to spare.

Also, not everyone has 32GB of RAM. Ever thought of them?

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

I see. So Microsoft should pull an Apple... seem to kinda so that with Win11, and you are complaining about it. Make sense to me.

I am not saying Microsoft should abandon legacy-edge. I am using that as an example of how poor planning and decisions lead Microsoft to have technical debt even though it was a thing that is only about 5 years old. I am using it as an example of a recent fuckup that landed Microsoft in the same old "we need to support legacy" trap yet again. Just like how they are now trapped with the old file explorer being packaged into Windows 11, because the new file explorer relies on it.

I think Microsoft should stop building new stuff on top of old stuff and actually think things through so that they have a good and flexible path forward. 

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

The way coding was done 20-30 years ago, is drastically different than today.

It's called experience. What was thought to be OK turned out to not be good.  People improve on things. Shocking I know.

Expect things to continue to change.

What is your point exactly?

It always feels like whenever I bring up issues with Microsoft products, you are mostly interested in giving reasons for why things are the way they are, as if that makes the situation better. It doesn't. It might explain why things are shit, but that doesn't make them non-shit.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Hey, why are you two mad? Everything has its pros and cons. e.g. removing notepad from base windows probably saved them 10s of MBs, which doesn't sound a lot until you think of that in terms of the cloud running millions of virtual desktops loaded in RAM and swapped in and out of SSDs/Optane.

[LAwLz]

18 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

All I see is a butt hurt person because his code wasn't accepted.

Something tells me you don't understand how GitHub works...

He contacted Microsoft about an issue and wanted to be informed about how things worked.

He got an explanation of why things were performing poorly.

He gave examples of how they could improve things.

The Microsoft developers told him it was too hard.

He said it didn't seem hard and asked if he only thought that because he was missing some crucial information.

The Microsoft developers got offended, told him he was rude and that it was super hard to do and therefore they wouldn't do it.

He quickly threw together a PoC to prove that it was easy to do.

 

His code was never accepted because he didn't submit it. He just wanted to prove that it was easy, and that the Microsoft developers were full of shit. That they were incompetent.

 

 

23 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes, and has a full framework with fallback support.

I feel like you're using words that either you or I don't understand.

What exactly do you mean when you say the Windows Terminal has "a full framework with fallback support"? Also, are you implying that it would be impossible to implement software rendering support as a fallback for RefTerm? Why is this even relevant?

The fact is that the hardware accelerated Windows Terminal performs like shit compared to what it could do. I mean seriously, listen to yourself and the Microsoft developers. They already have hardware acceleration implemented, and yet they are unable to render colored text at more than 2-3 FPS. 

By the way, it's not like they have a low FPS to conserve battery life or something either. It eats up a lot of battery life because the low performance comes from inefficiencies.

 

 

26 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

That decision is Microsoft's one. If there is a policy that everything needs to perfectly match, then it is what it is. Their loss. Maybe the author of the code should be professional and step back and analyse why it got rejected, instead of complaining. 

Ehm, what are you on about? Again, I strongly recommend you actually read what happened. The code didn't get rejected because it was never submitted.

Casey gave advice to Microsoft on how to do things.

Microsoft thought it was way too hard to do.

Casey made a PoC to prove that it was easy.

That's it.

 

And no, it is not Microsoft's loss when something "doesn't match their policies perfectly". It a loss for us, the users, because we become stuck with using poorly written software.

 

 

28 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

They are proper ways of doing things. His simply didn't align with the MS at the moment. Simple as that.

Again, it seems like you think he submitted his code and Microsoft rejected it. That is not what happened. Please, I beg you, look into the situation before jumping in to defend Microsoft.

[Distinctly Average]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am not saying Microsoft should abandon legacy-edge. I am using that as an example of how poor planning and decisions lead Microsoft to have technical debt even though it was a thing that is only about 5 years old. I am using it as an example of a recent fuckup that landed Microsoft in the same old "we need to support legacy" trap yet again. Just like how they are now trapped with the old file explorer being packaged into Windows 11, because the new file explorer relies on it.

I think Microsoft should stop building new stuff on top of old stuff and actually think things through so that they have a good and flexible path forward. 

 

 

 

I wonder if that will happen IF the future moves away from x86. Surely at that point all the legacy stuff could be dropped and do an Apple like thang of a transitional layer for the old crap.