Windows 11 - Here is everything you need to know - OUT NOW!!!

[Kilrah]

 

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It's worth noting that it wasn't just one Microsoft developer that thought "it's good enough, making it better is too hard". There was like 3-4 Microsoft developers all telling Casey this. It's most likely the entire team that thinks this way, and not just the Windows Terminal team but all teams at Microsoft.

Pretty much every software project I know is like that. Again it's software development, being a big company doesn't change anything to it, they still have to make choices on what to spend time on.

 

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

My point is that they have been trying to migrate everything over to Settings for over 6 years now, and they are still nowhere near done.

From what I've heard from developers at Microsoft, a lot of that has to do with the control panel and the underlying settings and hooks being old, outdated, poorly documented and confusing code from like 20 years ago. Which is not too hard to believe.

And is expected in any project that's been running for 30 years, and provides a good 20 years of software compatibility. Result: It will take a LOT of time to get rid of it and it's normal. 

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Hey, why are you two mad? Everything has its pros and cons. e.g. removing notepad from base windows probably saved them 10s of MBs, which doesn't sound a lot until you think of that in terms of the cloud running millions of virtual desktops loaded in RAM and swapped in and out of SSDs/Optane.

I am honestly not mad because some program might take up 10MB more memory, and as a result might be a ton of memory in VMs.

I am mad that people make excuses for why a company worth 2.2 trillion dollars shouldn't bother making their programs better, because customers can just buy more hardware to offset the bad software.

 

I am mad because the Windows Terminal is just one example of a poorly performing program. These types of inefficiencies most likely exists everywhere in Windows. When you got 30 different services that are all "good enough", it actually becomes a big deal, even if each service in and of itself is only slightly bad.

 

I am bad because these design decisions are the reason why Windows is such a mess. 

Whenever I bring up something bad with Windows I get 10 excuses for why they can't change it, but most of those excuses are because of poor decisions from Microsoft.

[GoodBytes]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Something tells me you don't understand how GitHub works...

He contacted Microsoft about an issue and wanted to be informed about how things worked.

He got an explanation of why things were performing poorly.

He gave examples of how they could improve things.

The Microsoft developers told him it was too hard.

He said it didn't seem hard and asked if he only thought that because he was missing some crucial information.

The Microsoft developers got offended, told him he was rude and that it was super hard to do and therefore they wouldn't do it.

He quickly threw together a PoC to prove that it was easy to do.

Yea, butt hurt, exactly what I said.  No one likes elitism, and rudeness.

They are ways to do things. He could have simply propose a solution marked it as it needs additional work (and clearly it did), and implement it as an experimental option.

Then you let the team pass through the evaluation process in seeing how it can fit into the policies set (if any) and the direction of the project.

 

He found a solution that the team didn't consider. This happens A LOT in the engineering as a whole. It is like this. It is life. 

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

His code was never accepted because he didn't submit it. He just wanted to prove that it was easy, and that the Microsoft developers were full of shit. That they were incompetent.

It was suggested that he did.. but whatever, I don't care. I don't see as Windows Terminal being "horrible" and whatnot, or poorly bad coding, I see as butt hurt developer who think he is the top of the world, and his feeling was hurt because he was not nominated the next emperor of the world.

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What exactly do you mean when you say the Windows Terminal has "a full framework with fallback support"? Also, are you implying that it would be impossible to implement software rendering support as a fallback for RefTerm? Why is this even relevant?

Exactly. It should be implemented. He didn't consider this. Or at least he didn't present it. It's easy to many things if you don't consider many other things.

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The fact is that the hardware accelerated Windows Terminal performs like shit compared to what it could do. I mean seriously, listen to yourself and the Microsoft developers. They already have hardware acceleration implemented, and yet they are unable to render colored text at more than 2-3 FPS. 

By the way, it's not like they have a low FPS to conserve battery life or something either. It eats up a lot of battery life because the low performance comes from inefficiencies.

You act as if color coding is this easy thing, while it is challenge in every software that implements it.

But if one is gifted as this guy, then he can contribute to it in a proper fashion. Who knows, maybe it could have led to a referral for an interview at a job at the company, which, if passes MS interviews, and is a team fit ('cause that is also important, more than knowledge, many times), then he might get it, if the person is interested in the position. 

 

 

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am honestly not mad because some program might take up 10MB more memory, and as a result might be a ton of memory in VMs.

I am mad that people make excuses for why a company worth 2.2 trillion dollars shouldn't bother making their programs better, because customers can just buy more hardware to offset the bad software.

 

I am mad because the Windows Terminal is just one example of a poorly performing program. These types of inefficiencies most likely exists everywhere in Windows. When you got 30 different services that are all "good enough", it actually becomes a big deal, even if each service in and of itself is only slightly bad.

 

I am bad because these design decisions are the reason why Windows is such a mess. 

Whenever I bring up something bad with Windows I get 10 excuses for why they can't change it, but most of those excuses are because of poor decisions from Microsoft.

While there is a lot of correct things on what you said, I would rather rewrite everything in Python and move on to the next project than program everything absolutely fine tuned C/C++. Don't get me wrong, I love trying to squeeze more performance from some programs. But *only when they're so bad it gets in the way* or when it would save more a lot more time/money in the long run (e.g. 12h CI to 3h CI).

[Dabombinable]

@GoodBytes
How lazily made Windows 11 is - definitely a shell:
The new Explorer shell is worse than any version of Explorer that I have ever used. And that's with me having started with Windows 3.1's file manager.
There is a reason why so many companies have copied the ribbon design for their software. It was an improvement over what we'd been seeing for over 20 years.

[Kilrah]

26 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am mad that people make excuses for why a company worth 2.2 trillion dollars shouldn't bother making their programs better

But they do... only not as quickly as you want it seems. Win11 works more smoothly on all the machines I've tested it on than 10 and that's what matters, nobody cares about a pedantic "is it coded in the most clean way possible?" No it's not, but it's good enough, better spend time on something else.

You're complaining both of things not being "clean" enough AND things not being quick enough, now imagine if everything was done perfectly... things would happen even more slowly.

 

It's not the 90s anymore where a small team of top level MS employees would sleep in their office to deliver the next thing, expectations have changed. Normal work life and average workers don't do miracles.

 

Also... how much are you paying MS to demand such things? A lot of what's in Windows is there for those who pay the big bucks.

Most likely the ability to revert to the ribbon in Explorer is there because there are companies who developed extensions to it and want to continue using them, and they have enough leverage to have MS keep that in. The W10 taskbar which used to still be there in dev builds is unfortunately gone in release, so if stuff isn't removed there's likely a reason.

[Arika]

If you want to get w10 functionality back, why not just fully roll back to w10? It even gives you the option. The first release of any version of Windows is rocky at best, go back to what you're used to and try again later.

 

The same thing will happen to w10 that happened to w7, and the same thing will happen to w11 that happened to w10: people will remember w10 in a good light because they don't like w11 and will stay with it as long as they can and call it the superior OS. While Windows 11 will always be critised for years to come because people had a bad first experience at launch and no matter what is changed or improved, it will be marred by the taste of salt already in their mouth.

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am honestly not mad because some program might take up 10MB more memory, and as a result might be a ton of memory in VMs.

I am mad that people make excuses for why a company worth 2.2 trillion dollars shouldn't bother making their programs better, because customers can just buy more hardware to offset the bad software.

You'll always pull this card, regardless of how much memory it will use. 

There is always optimization that can be done.

 

13 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am mad because the Windows Terminal is just one example of a poorly performing program. These types of inefficiencies most likely exists everywhere in Windows. When you got 30 different services that are all "good enough", it actually becomes a big deal, even if each service in and of itself is only slightly bad.

Welcome to the world of software development. Like an artists, the work is never done. The line has to be drawn.

 

[GoodBytes]

24 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

@GoodBytes
How lazily made Windows 11 is - definitely a shell:
The new Explorer shell is worse than any version of Explorer that I have ever used. And that's with me having started with Windows 3.1's file manager.
There is a reason why so many companies have copied the ribbon design for their software. It was an improvement over what we'd been seeing for over 20 years.

Windows Feature Experience Pack. Allows the GUI being updated via the Store. No need to make the users wait for a new release schedule for next year. t also allows same code base for Windows 10 which needs to be supported until end of 2025 at the minimum. It probably took them more work (including planning time) to do all this (I am including the the back-end of 'Windows Feature Experience Pack' system)

[Dabombinable]

10 minutes ago, Arika S said:

If you want to get w10 functionality back, why not just fully roll back to w10? It even gives you the option. The first release of any version of Windows is rocky at best, go back to what you're used to and try again later.

 

The same thing will happen to w10 that happened to w7, and the same thing will happen to w11 that happened to w10: people will remember w10 in a good light because they don't like w11 and will stay with it as long as they can and call it the superior OS. While Windows 11 will always be critised for years to come because people had a bad first experience at launch and no matter what is changed or improved, it will be marred by the taste of salt already in their mouth.

Windows 10 wasn't a shell on top of Windows 7...and straight up the user experience is inferior in the out-of-box configuration. Has been for some time (I have been running W11 insider on my TabPro S, since I have a second identical one for a truly fair comparison). Windows 10's UI did end up being an improvement at least as well - all it was lacking was Aero. Windows 11 though...some of the changes don't even seen to have a logical basis.

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Windows Feature Experience Pack. Allows the GUI being updated via the Store. No need to make the users wait for a new release schedule for next year. t also allows same code base for Windows 10 which needs to be supported until end of 2025 at the minimum. It probably took them more work (including planning time) to do all this (I am including the the back-end of 'Windows Feature Experience Pack' system)

So...just update the GUI entirely (without removing contextual items), and then have additons/updates via WFEP. As things are though...its not new and it certainly isn't an improvement. That being said - probably easier for people to make+implement custom themes now. No more messing with .dll hopefully.

[Arika]

14 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Windows 10 wasn't a shell on top of Windows 7

i don't really understand the animosity around this anyway. why does it matter if it's just an overlay on top of the old windows 10? didn't everyone already assume as much anyway? the entire time between the first screenshots and release people have been saying "it's windows 10 with a new skin", so i don't know why anyone is surprised.

 

It would be interesting to see what the reactions would have been like had MS just implemented something in settings that allowed you to switch between the W10 or W11 look at will with a little slider for individual aspects of the OS and say "hey we know some people like the old look, so we're giving you the option to chose". But instead people feel like they have "caught" MS in some grave scandal by doing what people (apparently) already knew.

 

EDIT: also there's nothing to say that a future update couldn't remove the old FE and implement a new one built from scratch, but again, will people care? because either

• they got used to how the "old" one works and find no difference in the new one, completely forgetting it was a skin
• they won't care because they remember the bad times when it was just a skin, and no amount of fixing it will improve their opinion

[ouroesa]

2 Questions"

1. What is GA release?

2. Why can't I access the task manager by right clicking the taskbar? This and the new right click menu made me go back to Win10. Petty, I know but I use these a lot.

[Kilrah]

General availability, i.e. when it's going to start being offered as an update to W10 users.

[linkboy]

3 minutes ago, ouroesa said:

2 Questions"

1. What is GA release?

2. Why can't I access the task manager by right clicking the taskbar? This and the new right click menu made me go back to Win10. Petty, I know but I use these a lot.

 

GA = General Availability

 

As for the taskbar, it was totally rewritten for the (now cancelled) Windows 10x project and that new taskbar was carried over to 11, and there's a lot of features that haven't been reimplemented.

[CommanderAlex]

48 minutes ago, ouroesa said:

2. Why can't I access the task manager by right clicking the taskbar? This and the new right click menu made me go back to Win10. Petty, I know but I use these a lot

If you right click on the Windows start button, you'll be able to access Task Manager there. (or use the keyboard shortcut of Ctrl+Shift+ESC). You can center the taskbar back to the left side as how Windows 10 was by default, but for the top and left/right sides, not yet. 

[GoodBytes]

AMD confirmed performance issue with their CPUs under Windows 11 and is working with Microsoft to solve them:

 

 

[NumLock21]

I tried upgrading on my unsupported CPU and it didn't work.

They say CPUs not supported can still run Win11 when you do a clean install, but IMO that will create a hassle in the long run especially when a newer build comes out. When the newer build arrives, you'll have to do a clean install again and again for every new build there is. So even though Microsoft is letting you install, it will be a pain to keep your system up to date.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

I tried upgrading on my unsupported CPU and it didn't work.

They say CPUs not supported can still run Win11 when you do a clean install, but IMO that will create a hassle in the long run especially when a newer build comes out. When the newer build arrives, you'll have to do a clean install again and again for every new build there is. So even though Microsoft is letting you install, it will be a pain to keep your system up to date.

Within 1 week of release, there will be ISO's online with patched work arounds. You will not need to install windows again and again.

 

You don't buy the OS anymore. You buy a key. This is what legitimizes your install.

 

fTPM is a security feature that they are removing your rights to have enabled or not. 

 

And yes, you can update W11 without TPM. Mine is fully up to date. 

 

Also, you don't need a key to Install W10. Just don't plug the ethernet in.

 

W10 insiders program - W11 using this key. (Upgrade). Some people that went from W7 to W10, may very well be on the insiders program using a valid W7 key!!! Now wouldn't that be something??? 

[NumLock21]

26 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Within 1 week of release, there will be ISO's online with patched work arounds. You will not need to install windows again and again.

 

You don't buy the OS anymore. You buy a key. This is what legitimizes your install.

 

fTPM is a security feature that they are removing your rights to have enabled or not. 

 

And yes, you can update W11 without TPM. Mine is fully up to date. 

 

Also, you don't need a key to Install W10. Just don't plug the ethernet in.

 

W10 insiders program - W11 using this key. (Upgrade). Some people that went from W7 to W10, may very well be on the insiders program using a valid W7 key!!! Now wouldn't that be something??? 

• I'm got the ISO and tried to do a upgrade from Win10 to Win11 since I'm not looking forward to do a clean install of the entire OS
• During setup, it says CPU is not supported and it gives me the options of go back to the previous setup page or close
• My cpu does not have TPM, but I do have a TPM 2.0 module and even Win11 health check says the TPM is ready for Win11
• Using a key from a older OS to activate Win11 has nothing to do with being a Windows Insider
• The way I see it for having to do a clean install every time a new build of Win11 is, when upgrading it will continue to say CPU not supported and the only way to bypass that is to again do a clean install.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

• The way I see it for having to do a clean install every time a new build of Win11 is, when upgrading it will continue to say CPU not supported and the only way to bypass that is to again do a clean install.

Quote

 

Type ‘regedit’ and hit enter

The Windows Registry Editor will now open. In the address bar, type ‘HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup’ and hit enter

You should now see a ‘Setup’ key. Right-click it and choose New > Key

You’ll now be prompted to give it a name. Choose ‘LabConfig’ and hit enter

Right-click the new key you’ve created and choose New > DWORD (32-bit) value

Give it the name ‘BypassTPMCheck’ and set its data to 1

Follow the same process for ‘BypassRAMCheck’ and ‘BypassSecureBootCheck’, with the same value of 1

Close this window using the red X in the top-right corner

Close the Command Prompt window by typing ‘exit’ and hitting enter

You’ll now be back at the ‘This PC can’t run Windows 11’ message. Click the back button in the top-left corner

You should now be able to complete the installation as normal

 

Source https://www.techadvisor.com/how-to/windows/windows-11-tpm-2-0-requirement-3806413/

 

Regedit is permanent. Why on earth would you need to install it over and over? 

 

Once you bypass the fTPM non-sense, it installs just like windows 10 and you're done. Windows still updates, and it will remain telling you that you can't upgrade even though you already did. 

 

So far, I haven't had any issues updating the operating system. Luckily that has nothing to do with hardware authentication such as the Mac address to each component in your system, the TPM is just an encrypted confirmation of the authentication.  Essentially pretty much totally useless. 

 

Thus, the simple work around I've given to you above so you can run your rig. And you're welcome.

[jagdtigger]

8 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Why on earth would you need to install it over and over? 

That workaround only works in the installer, it wont work if you want to upgrade an existing install. I know this because i tried it. The only way to upgrade on a unsupported machine is to implant the 11 install.wim onto a 10 install media....

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

That workaround only works in the installer, it wont work if you want to upgrade an existing install. I know this because i tried it. The only way to upgrade on a unsupported machine is to implant the 11 install.wim onto a 10 install media....

I did no such thing. Did exactly the above. No USB modified installation of W10.

 

Totally upgraded from W10. 

 

The difference from the above, is that I restart the system any time after I edit the registry because some values won't do anything until the system is restarted  

 

Need screenies? I'm not sure how I'd prove it's an upgrade and not a modified W10 ISO though.....

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

Pretty much every software project I know is like that. Again it's software development, being a big company doesn't change anything to it, they still have to make choices on what to spend time on.

1) Not all software projects are like that. A lot of them are, but not all of them.

2) I think we can, and should, hold a 2.2 trillion dollar company to slightly higher standards than your average company.

 

 

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

And is expected in any project that's been running for 30 years, and provides a good 20 years of software compatibility. Result: It will take a LOT of time to get rid of it and it's normal. 

What is your point? Just because it is normal does not change the fact that Windows is a mess and really need some deep cleaning. But my point was that even the new code is a mess. 

 

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Yea, butt hurt, exactly what I said.  No one likes elitism, and rudeness.

They are ways to do things. He could have simply propose a solution marked it as it needs additional work (and clearly it did), and implement it as an experimental option.

Then you let the team pass through the evaluation process in seeing how it can fit into the policies set (if any) and the direction of the project.

 

He found a solution that the team didn't consider. This happens A LOT in the engineering as a whole. It is like this. It is life. 

The problem is that he found and presented the solution in a proper manner, and asked if it would work or if he had missed something. The response from Microsoft was that it was very complicated and would be an "entire doctoral research project". It kind of goes to show how low-skilled Microsoft's developers are to think something is an entire PhD research project when another developer could scrap it together in a couple of days.

It's not that Microsoft was suggested the solution and they went "oh, we didn't think of that". Several Microsoft devs came into the thread and told Casey that it was too hard, that it was good enough already, that they didn't have the technical knowledge to implement it the way he suggested, etc. That's why he went "bullshit, I'll do it myself to prove it".

 

Your view of the whole thing is quite frankly baffling. It's like you view everything Microsoft said in good faith, and everything Casey and the other developers said in bad faith. Microsoft were in the wrong, and they really got shown how wrong they were, so now you think the person telling them "no you're wrong and I'll prove it" is mean? Maybe it was mean of Microsoft to shoot the suggestion down without a second to consider it? It sounds a lot like arrogance from Microsoft if you ask me.

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It was suggested that he did.. but whatever, I don't care. I don't see as Windows Terminal being "horrible" and whatnot, or poorly bad coding, I see as butt hurt developer who think he is the top of the world, and his feeling was hurt because he was not nominated the next emperor of the world.

Casey: Hey, I think it would be better if you did things this way. It would perform better. Is there something I'm missing or would it be possible?

Microsoft: No, that's super hard to do. Good luck with your PhD-level research project. We will keep doing what we're already doing.

Casey: It's not that hard.

Microsoft: Yes it is and we won't do it.

Casey: *Does it in like 3 days* See? It wasn't that hard. If you want you can buy the code from me.

Microsoft fans: Wow, look how rude this guy is! He should just have given Microsoft the code and shut up about it! What an asshole!

 

 

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Exactly. It should be implemented. He didn't consider this. Or at least he didn't present it. It's easy to many things if you don't consider many other things.

What do you mean? Are you talking about a fallback to software rendering? But the discussion wasn't about that. That would most likely be easy to implement. The entire discussion was "your hardware acceleration is really slow and could be way better".

I feel like you're nitpicking completely irrelevant things right now because you can't admit that Microsoft's program is poorly written. What does having software rendering as a fallback have to do with the performance when using GPU acceleration? 

 

Windows 11 has a performance issue on AMD processors, right?

Imagine if I had suggested a fix for that to AMD and Microsoft and they had just said "nope, we won't fix it because it's too hard. You'll just have to live with it".

Then I spent a day coding a patch and posted it to this forum going "hey, I know a lot of people have performance issues with AMD processors. Can you try this patch I wrote? It seems to work fine for me but maybe I am missing something".

Would you then go "how dare you! Why are you acting like the queen of the world, showing off that you think you know better and AMD and Microsoft? You're just butthurt! Also, did you ever consider that some people use Intel processors? No, didn't think so!"

 

 

You're acting really strange.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

You act as if color coding is this easy thing, while it is challenge in every software that implements it.

Apparently it wasn't since this guy did it in a couple of days in his spare time. Also, another person in the Github thread improved performance (in the Windows Terminal) by 200% with some changes he submitted.

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

But if one is gifted as this guy, then he can contribute to it in a proper fashion. Who knows, maybe it could have led to a referral for an interview at a job at the company, which, if passes MS interviews, and is a team fit ('cause that is also important, more than knowledge, many times), then he might get it, if the person is interested in the position. 

1) You seem to assume that he wants to work for Microsoft, as if that's like the highest honor someone can achieve. 

2) Thanks for describing exactly what this blog talks about. I was thinking of posting this but didn't really have a good way of putting it into the conversation.

 

I want people as gifted as this guy to be the developer behind the software I use. That is honestly what I expect from the biggest software maker in the world. I expect their developers to be the crème de la crème. Not some people who whine about how improving performance is "too hard" and that it is "good enough".

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

But they do... only not as quickly as you want it seems. Win11 works more smoothly on all the machines I've tested it on than 10 and that's what matters, nobody cares about a pedantic "is it coded in the most clean way possible?" No it's not, but it's good enough, better spend time on something else.

You're complaining both of things not being "clean" enough AND things not being quick enough, now imagine if everything was done perfectly... things would happen even more slowly.

 

It's not the 90s anymore where a small team of top level MS employees would sleep in their office to deliver the next thing, expectations have changed. Normal work life and average workers don't do miracles.

Now you're just making stuff up.

I have been repeatedly saying that they should delay Windows 11 for at least a year because it is clearly not done yet. The only thing I mentioned was a slow process was the migration of the control panel to settings, but I said that because I wanted to highlight how much technical debt they got, not to highlight "look at how slow Microsoft are". I think you misunderstood my previous post. I mentioned the control panel as an example of how Windows is a mess, not as an example of "they should do this much faster".

 

I agree that "average workers don't do miracles", but I think we should hold Microsoft to higher standards than just having "average workers". They are the biggest software company in the world. Is it really too much to ask that their developers are a cut above the rest?

 

 

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

Also... how much are you paying MS to demand such things? A lot of what's in Windows is there for those who pay the big bucks.

We (the customers) are paying Microsoft 54 billion dollars a year for it. 

 

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

Most likely the ability to revert to the ribbon in Explorer is there because there are companies who developed extensions to it and want to continue using them, and they have enough leverage to have MS keep that in. The W10 taskbar which used to still be there in dev builds is unfortunately gone in release, so if stuff isn't removed there's likely a reason.

I feel like you don't understand my complaint. My complaint isn't "the old explorer is still in Windows 11". My complaint is "the new explorer is built on top of old explorer in a poor way that impacts performance and will cause maintenance issues down the road".

I wish you would ask me questions if you are unsure what I mean, because it feels like more than half of my posts towards you is just me explaining how you misunderstood what I said.

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

You'll always pull this card, regardless of how much memory it will use. 

There is always optimization that can be done.

No I won't. 

There is a difference between "we could squeeze out 5% more performance if we did this complicated thing!" and "we could get a 1000x performance increase if we did this thing".

 

I am not asking Microsoft to write their terminal software in asm because they might squeeze some more performance out of it. What I am asking however is for them to not think 2 FPS and a ton of resource usage is "good enough" when like 2 days of work could make it run at 2000 FPS.

 

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Welcome to the world of software development. Like an artists, the work is never done. The line has to be drawn.

Yes, and I think it is sad that Microsoft has settled for developers that shout "it's good enough" and don't even consider other, better, approaches even when someone suggest it to them because they don't have the knowledge or experience to implement it.

I think we should expect good software from Microsoft, but if there is any take away from this conversation then it's that you and plenty of others think that good code is not something we should expect or demand from them. "It works, kinda" and "it's fast enough" is where the bar is set.