COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Commodus]

37 minutes ago, Big Nav said:

I would respectfully disagree, what I was referring to was my bodies white cell's ability to produce those antibodies when it comes in contact with a foreign pathogen, adapt and neutralize it before my body is adversely affected. Since this started I have never worn a glove, a mask , or used hand sanitizer once. Not so much as the sniffles, matter of fact I've gotten healthier over this time. As for the mass infections at religious gatherings, this I am unaware of, It was my understanding that churches where some of the 1st institutions classified as non-essential and shut down at least around where I live.

That's just... bad logic.  You're confusing circumstance and luck (so to speak) with some kind of resilience.  Those safety measures are present not because you're guaranteed to get sick if you get too close to people or touch the wrong thing, but because it's virtually impossible to know how safe you are or how your body will react if you get sick.  Being fit helps, but young people have still fallen seriously ill and died, even those who were in good shape.   And since cases can take up to two weeks to manifest and may be asymptomatic, you don't know if that person who coughed on you in the store is fine or just doomed you to weeks of pure hell.

 

As for religious gatherings, there are numerous reports of churches in reopened states having to shut down again after congregation and clergy get sick, of pastors dying from the virus after insisting their faith will protect them.  There's the South Korean church that got thousands of people infected; a Sikh guru in India died of the virus and may have spread it to over 15,000 people.  In all cases, they ignored science and paid the price for it.

[lewdicrous]

Grains of salt may be needed. 

Quote

A study by a team of researchers led by a Texas A&M University professor has found that not wearing a face mask dramatically increases a person’s chances of being infected by the COVID-19 virus.

Quote

https://today.tamu.edu/2020/06/12/texas-am-study-face-masks-critical-in-preventing-spread-of-covid-19/

 

[mr moose]

On 6/12/2020 at 1:44 PM, Commodus said:

I'm not sure how well a control group would work in this case.  These countries were chosen in no small part due to the scale of their infections; even a country with relatively high infection rate would have far fewer overall infections.

 

 

 

There is no way to intentionally include a control group, At least not ethically and without creating an entire community that has all the same characteristics of an entire nation.   However they can use existing data from other outbreaks and various other methods of disease control. 

 

When it comes to science on this or in vaccines and similar cases where a control group is impossible or unethical,  people like to point to it as being only a correlation.  The issue is that correlation not equaling causation is fine for sciences where absolute proof can be found,  but for social science and some forms of disease control this is not the case.  People need to remember that the more data you have, the less the probability is that it is a correlation only and the more likely it becomes a causal link. 

 

Even if the mechanism of that link is not understood,  with millions of samples and confidence intervals way out of the ball park then people can dismiss the data at their own peril.   For many things we have no absolute way to prove what will work medically for each individual or that even any treatment or process undertaken now will result in the outcome we desire, however it is the best knowledge and data we have on the topic by the best educated to allow for errors and assumptions. So why would anyone ignore it?    

 

E.G:

I knew when I went in for surgery that it may not work for me specifically, but I also know form the hundreds of thousands of people who have had the same operation that the probable outcome was good. There is no way to both do the operation and not do the operation on me specifically and compare the results (no way to have a control group).   So probability and sheer weight of numbers comes into play and again the outcomes repeatedly underpin the data and thus it becomes supporting evidence and not merely an observed correlation.

 

 

[PhantomJaguarr]

7 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

Grains of salt may be needed. 

...

I gotta wear a mask plus a face shield when running U-Scan. And lemme tell you I got dizzy quick having to move back and forth a lot. Heart rate is noticeably quicker. Thing fogged up something fierce. Still better than a ventilator.

 

Quote

He [Flor] also was on a mechanical ventilator for 29 days, with the use of the machine billed at $2,835 per day, for a total of $82,215. About a quarter of the bill is drug costs.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/inspiring-story-of-seattle-mans-coronavirus-survival-comes-with-a-1-1-million-dollar-hospital-bill/

[Commodus]

14 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

There is no way to intentionally include a control group, At least not ethically and without creating an entire community that has all the same characteristics of an entire nation.   However they can use existing data from other outbreaks and various other methods of disease control. 

 

When it comes to science on this or in vaccines and similar cases where a control group is impossible or unethical,  people like to point to it as being only a correlation.  The issue is that correlation not equaling causation is fine for sciences where absolute proof can be found,  but for social science and some forms of disease control this is not the case.  People need to remember that the more data you have, the less the probability is that it is a correlation only and the more likely it becomes a causal link. 

 

Even if the mechanism of that link is not understood,  with millions of samples and confidence intervals way out of the ball park then people can dismiss the data at their own peril.   For many things we have no absolute way to prove what will work medically for each individual or that even any treatment or process undertaken now will result in the outcome we desire, however it is the best knowledge and data we have on the topic by the best educated to allow for errors and assumptions. So why would anyone ignore it?    

 

E.G:

I knew when I went in for surgery that it may not work for me specifically, but I also know form the hundreds of thousands of people who have had the same operation that the probable outcome was good. There is no way to both do the operation and not do the operation on me specifically and compare the results (no way to have a control group).   So probability and sheer weight of numbers comes into play and again the outcomes repeatedly underpin the data and thus it becomes supporting evidence and not merely an observed correlation.

 

 

That's the thing, isn't it?  You could look at countries with loose or non-existent lockdown measures, but they'll never quite match up.  The only thing you can really do is look at overall trends and notice that countries with strict, science-guided lockdowns have decidedly lower infection and death rates than those that don't.  Hell, you can look at the US and realize that states which rushed to remove lockdowns early are spiking while those that held on for a few weeks more are faring much better.

 

What frustrates me these days is how many people pretend that the virus cares what humans think.  Like it'll politely step aside because you want a haircut.  As if really, really believing in a religion will make the virus pass you by.  The truth is that it doesn't care at all; the only way to stop it before there's a vaccine or treatment is to deny opportunities for infections.  And I despair when people on this forum act as if they can keep the virus away through sheer force of will, because you'd think that someone in a tech community would be guided by science and logic, not irrational impulses.

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Commodus said:

That's the thing, isn't it?  You could look at countries with loose or non-existent lockdown measures, but they'll never quite match up.  The only thing you can really do is look at overall trends and notice that countries with strict, science-guided lockdowns have decidedly lower infection and death rates than those that don't.  Hell, you can look at the US and realize that states which rushed to remove lockdowns early are spiking while those that held on for a few weeks more are faring much better.

 

What frustrates me these days is how many people pretend that the virus cares what humans think.  Like it'll politely step aside because you want a haircut.  As if really, really believing in a religion will make the virus pass you by.  The truth is that it doesn't care at all; the only way to stop it before there's a vaccine or treatment is to deny opportunities for infections.  And I despair when people on this forum act as if they can keep the virus away through sheer force of will, because you'd think that someone in a tech community would be guided by science and logic, not irrational impulses.

And it's not even a basic religious thing,  I love reading about religious practices around the world.  The thing that stood out to me about the old testament and Judaic religions is that all the old laws and profits seemed to deter people from doing things that were actually unhealthy infection/viral wise for that period.  Therefore regardless of whether people believe in god or not,  the old texts are telling them to how to avoid a getting ill (having your toilets out of town, only to eat cooked pork or unleavened bread and not sharing sex partners etc) Because they didn't have antibiotics, panadol, or infection control of any sort,  if we take that into the 21st century one should see the inescapable paradigm of god sending people the help they need to avoid trouble,  they just need to be wise to it.   If you believe god uses all people to his will then scientists are 21century profits.    If you don't believe in god then carry on.   TL:DR, I see no reason in religion to ignore science, only chosen ignorance (which seems to bare out in the number of religious people who die from stuff after refusing modern interventions).

[PhantomJaguarr]

7 hours ago, Commodus said:

What frustrates me these days is how many people pretend that the virus cares what humans think.  Like it'll politely step aside because you want a haircut.

Difference with me is that I'm waiting for the experts giving the green-light for hair salons and businesses similar to reopen before I get a haircut. And I'm making a u-turn out of the place if the hairstylists are not wearing masks. I consider myself lucky though. Compared to other cities/counties, mine seems to adhere to the elected health officials' rules for the most part. 

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

Difference with me is that I'm waiting for the experts giving the green-light for hair salons and businesses similar to reopen before I get a haircut. And I'm making a u-turn out of the place if the hairstylists are not wearing masks. I consider myself lucky though. Compared to other cities/counties, mine seems to adhere to the elected health officials' rules for the most part. 

Same... and even then, maybe wait for the initial crush of people to subside so you're not trying to dodge people ignoring distance rules to get in line.

[PhantomJaguarr]

8 hours ago, Commodus said:

Same... and even then, maybe wait for the initial crush of people to subside so you're not trying to dodge people ignoring distance rules to get in line.

Don't gotta tell me twice from what I've seen happen to other businesses during re-opening phases.

 

Quote

A short video clip played at Friday's news briefing taken at El Prez, a popular Pacific Beach sports bar and restaurant, and showed dozens of people in close physical contact without face coverings standing at the bar. The restaurant was closed by the county and will "remain closed until further notice," said San Diego County Supervisor Nathan Fletcher.

https://www.villagenews.com/story/2020/05/21/news/pacific-beach-bar-closed-for-violating-health-orders-hours-after-reopening/61190.html

[lewdicrous]

Spoiler

 

Latest numbers from the US, as of the time of posting.

[PhantomJaguarr]

Big oof. One of my household members hung out with someone who was exposed to Covid-19. That someone is getting tested first and if they test positive, the whole group is going to be tested. He just started work today at his reopened gym. That was quick, ‘rona.

[lewdicrous]

Social distancing in a gym.

Spoiler

https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gym-reopens-with-bizarre-plastic-workout-pods-2020-6

https://nypost.com/2020/06/16/gym-reopens-with-individual-pods-to-maintain-social-distancing/

 

[UntitledPhysicist]

Looking for a reusable mask to use any suggestions?

[PhantomJaguarr]

6 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

Social distancing in a gym.

  Hide contents

https://www.businessinsider.com/california-gym-reopens-with-bizarre-plastic-workout-pods-2020-6

https://nypost.com/2020/06/16/gym-reopens-with-individual-pods-to-maintain-social-distancing/

 

Lmao that didn’t happen here. When they reopened on Monday they were swamped with newcomers and regular members eager to be back. The machines were six feet apart though and top of the art disinfectant was being used.

 

 

*chuckles* I'm in danger. FFS.

 

Quote

Kahn, an expert in mask law and history, said one of the biggest issues is people are not used to taking orders from health officials.

https://www.10news.com/news/coronavirus/some-san-diegans-push-for-end-of-san-diego-county-face-mask-requirement

Edited June 17, 2020 by PhantomJaguar77

[PhantomJaguarr]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:09 AM, Zodiark1593 said:

Probably not. Apparently (according to the below article), Newsom has been barred from pushing forward any further executive orders that violate the state constitution. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/news/california/judge-limits-gov-newsoms-emergency-rule-making-powers/amp/

 

Rules that are currently still in effect are mostly untouched, but the rolling back of restrictions will probably be shot down in California Supreme Court. 

 

But then he just did this? I don't think it will sit well after what I've seen locally.

Quote

Californians are required to wear face coverings in high-risk settings as the state continues to reopen amid the coronavirus pandemic.

Gov. Gavin Newsom issued the statewide order on Thursday. It follows new guidance from the California Department of Public Health that asymptomatic or presymptomatic people can still spread the disease.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/18/880583357/california-gov-newsom-makes-face-masks-mandatory-amid-rising-coronavirus-cases

[Zodiark1593]

7 hours ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

 

But then he just did this? I don't think it will sit well after what I've seen locally.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/18/880583357/california-gov-newsom-makes-face-masks-mandatory-amid-rising-coronavirus-cases

No, already seeing a fair bit of grumbling over in Placerville. Doubt law enforcement will actually enforce this here. 

[PhantomJaguarr]

8 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

No, already seeing a fair bit of grumbling over in Placerville. Doubt law enforcement will actually enforce this here. 

So far during this work day I haven’t seen a single mask-less person in my store. And if they didn’t have one they politely asked for the complimentary ones we have.

 

I guess the coronavirus impacted Fall admission for my impacted Mathematics major when I re-applied for the university I wanted. Was just informed I was accepted. At least this whole shitshow gave me a second chance as my silver lining. I bet my future statistics and differential equations classes will be interesting with all that’s going on.

[captain_to_fire]

Tfw you’ve received a spam emails and Facebook ads selling dexamethasone as many misinterpreted UK’s NHS study on severe Covid-19 patients. 

 
 

Quote

Unless you want to live a life like a HIV patient but without the actual HIV with a bonus of literal thin skin and obesity, by no means anyone should take corticosteroids as prophylactic drugs because it will not protect you against any infection.

Edited June 20, 2020 by captain_to_fire

[lewdicrous]

Quote

Statistician's comment
“The risk of death involving COVID-19 varies across religious groups, with those identifying as Muslims, Jewish, Hindu and Sikh showing a higher rate of death than other groups. For the most part the elevated risk of certain religious groups is explained by geographical, socio economic and demographic factors and increased risks associated with ethnicity. However, after adjusting for the above, Jewish males are at twice the risk of Christian males, and Jewish women are also at higher risk. Additional data and analyses are required to understand this excess risk.”

Nick Stripe, Head of Life Events, Office for National Statistics

Quote

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyreligiousgroupenglandandwales/2marchto15may2020?hootPostID=f4c031d5596fff0d0b16c3e640239992

 

[NumLock21]

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/kota-hospital-ventilator-covid-19-6466969/

 

[Zodiark1593]

4 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/kota-hospital-ventilator-covid-19-6466969/

 

The article mentions the guy tested negative for COVID. Foul play perhaps?

[NumLock21]

2 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

The article mentions the guy tested negative for COVID. Foul play perhaps?

Don't know.

What I find odd is, it seems he was immediately taken into ICU and put on a ventilator, while they were still waiting for his results?

[Zodiark1593]

5 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Don't know.

What I find odd is, it seems he was immediately taken into ICU and put on a ventilator, while they were still waiting for his results?

Compromised respiratory function can be a symptom of a number of diseases, not just COVID. It takes time to accurately discern a root cause, though treating symptoms can be done independently in the meantime, and would be most prudent when said symptom is likely to prove fatal well before results of virus tests can be brought in. 

[ARikozuM]

1 hour ago, NumLock21 said:

Don't know.

What I find odd is, it seems he was immediately taken into ICU and put on a ventilator, while they were still waiting for his results?

A competent doctor will treat symptoms as he narrows possible diseases. 

 

But unplugging a ventilator for a cooler is a severe case of lacking common sense. 

[NumLock21]

12 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Compromised respiratory function can be a symptom of a number of diseases, not just COVID. It takes time to accurately discern a root cause, though treating symptoms can be done independently in the meantime, and would be most prudent when said symptom is likely to prove fatal well before results of virus tests can be brought in. 

What I'm curious about, was that man is such a bad state, where they must put him on a ventilator, or don't really need to, but they still did it anyway.

10 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

A competent doctor will treat symptoms as he narrows possible diseases. 

 

But unplugging a ventilator for a cooler is a severe case of lacking common sense. 

It's not the doctors who unplugged it. It's the deceased man's family member who did it, after they cannot find an extra outlet for the cooler. I would assume, they would have immediately plugged it back in, if the ventilator shuts down immediately and give off some alert after it was unplugged. Because battery power kicked in, they thought it wasn't the ventilator, only to confused by it, when it ran out of power half an hour later, and thought the machine just stopped working.