Everyone Was Right About Tesla

[GoodBytes]

5 hours ago, Drak3 said:

And other electrics aren't and weren't ugly either. Definitely better looking than a Tesla.

That just just a question of taste.  Tesla did a more of a "normal car look", then the other companies at the time, who was trying to also re-invent the car, where some of them even having questionable aerodynamics, or be too small to be any useful (no truck, for example). On top of that they cost a lot for what you get, where low powered and had short range.

 

The problem is that previously, all car manufacture took the bottom to top approach. Focusing on making the electric car the least expensive as possible. This has given a bad image to electric cars.

 

Tesla, in the other hand knew that electric cars were expensive (and still is today), and they knew that only market that can actually buy them are those that can afford luxury cars. And that is what they started with. Super expensive models, but allowed them to put incredible batteries and motors competing with the best performance oriented cars, even beating them.  This allowed to get the attention of the consumer, media and changed people perspective on electric cars. Top that by getting the best designers to bring a look that most people like a lot, while still looking unique. When you see the Porche rear or front, or sides, you don't need to look up close to see the company badge to know it is a Porche as it has a signature look that is identified/associated with the brand. Same for other luxury cars. Tesla managed to get that special look and ave their brand associated with is, and now people can go "Oh the car behind me is a Tesla! Nice!", if you get what I mean.

 

Now, they started on aiming to drop the price of the car. A feet that is clearly easier to reach than the contrary. Showing the approach from top to bottom, was the best one. Looking at the Model 3 full tear down, you can easily see further work that can be done to cut cost. Basically, cost optimization. Granted Tesla issue is that they over built everything in their car, adding a lot of complexity, at the advantage of being the most secure car, and perhaps have a lot of useless things that can be removed ( for example: remove added panels or soldering line points from the body, that is not actually needed, or the body can be done differently to get the same results, but cheaper),  Being a new car manufacture it has a lot to learn, but optimization and knowledge is something that they get either over time, or buy the best of the best in the industry to work together to help reduce production cost, simplifying manufacturing process and reducing Quality Control issues as well.

 

That said, many owners of Tesla vehicle get them under a Lease, so they don't really care about Quality Control, I mean, anything is covered under warranty which they get to match their lease period, and that is all that they care about. Of course, not having to service the car is even better, but this is more of an issue for those interested in purchaser a car and keeping for many years to come. This will come, as price drops, which of course they can, as, as mentioned there is a lot of places that the company can optimize things to drop the price (body of the car, for example)

 

Where I am, Montreal, in Canada, you see A LOT of Tesla. I don't recall 1 week without seeing one parked in a mall parking lot or on the road, summer or winter.

[D13H4RD]

I don't know about you, but I like it better when cars have understated design and weren't trying to reinvent the wheel

[Mihle]

31 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

 

Where I am, Montreal, in Canada, you see A LOT of Tesla. I don't recall 1 week without seeing one parked in a mall parking lot or on the road, summer or winter.

On my 15 min bike commute, if I look, I usually see like 3 Tesla's minimum. Might be somewhat cheating that 1-2 of them is in a spesific parking lot people use to then take the train to somewhere else, but still.

[Brooksie359]

1 minute ago, Mihle said:

On my 15 min bike commute, if I look, I usually see like 3 Tesla's minimum. Might be somewhat cheating that 1-2 of them is in a spesific parking lot people use to then take the train to somewhere else, but still.

Yeah when i was in LA for a week I would see 2 to 3 at least anytime we went anywhere. I would often seen a dozen or so when going places. 

[Monkey Dust]

Tesla still have a huge amount of debt, and won't have the high-end EV market to themselves for much longer. The Audi E-Tron and the Porsche Taycan are coming soon, with their wide dealer networks and excellent interior build quality. The Jaguar E-Pace is already available. Plus Elon has been doing Tesla's image no favours recently either.

 

Tesla isn't dead yet, nor is it out of the woods. Calling it either way is premature.

[Canada EH]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

incredible batteries and motors competing with the best performance oriented cars, even beating them.

Yup incredible parts that is for sure!

Performance I agree, like on the drag strip with their instant torque from zero rpm, and their top speed.

 

Range Anxiety on the other hand, still apart of "performance" in my books, along with Ease of Use.

 

Going back to that Rich Rebuilds guy on YT, he only had 110V outlet in the beginning and could only get a charge rate of 3 miles per hour of charge. But on the 220V it was better of course not sure what he got on 220V home power. On the Tesla Recharge station it was like 30 miles per hour of charge, but the stations were too far from his home, not sure how far, but the stations were in a mall parking lot. Not sure if you can buy the Tesla Supercharger Station for your home, because maybe it requires 3 phase power I am not sure.

 

Other draw backs were the Regen, think about this regen adds braking and on icy roads, its not good.

Another draw back, turn on your interior heater and you are chewing up battery power like its candy.

They say just use the seat warmers. I say just install a cab heater that plugs into 110V, over night its toasty warm. Could probably even do it to whatever else needs heating. But why would the cosumer need to, after dropping big coin like that. Most cold weather places have block heater outlets in parking lots.

 

[CarlBar]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

That just just a question of taste, but all in large, Tesla did a more "normal car look", then companies trying to also re-invent the car, with questionable aerodynamics. On top of that they cost a lot, low power, and short range.

 

The problem is that previously, all car manufacture took the bottom to top approach. Focusing on making the electric car the least expensive as possible. This has given a bad image to electric cars.

 

Tesla, in the other hand knew that electric cars are expensive (still today), and knew that only market that can actually buy them are those that can afford luxury cars. And that is what they started with. Super expensive, but allowed them to put incredible batteries and motors competing with the best performance oriented cars, even beating them.  This allowed to get the attention of the consumer, media and changed people perspective on electric cars. Top that by getting the best designers to bring a look that most people like a lot, while still looking unique. When you see the Porche rear or front, or sides, you don't need to look up close to see the company badge to know it is a Porche. Same for other luxury cars. Tesla managed to get that look as well.

 

And know they started from the top, are aiming to drop the price of the car. A feet that is clearly easier than the contrary. Looking at the Model 3 full tear down, you can easily see further work that can be done to cut cost. Basically optimization. Granted Tesla issue is that they over built everything in their car, adding a lot of complexity, at the advantage of being the most secure car. And being a car manufacture it has a lot to learn, but optimization and knowledge is something that they get either over time, or buy being able to get the best of the best in the industry to work together to help reduce production cost, simplifying manufacturing process, reducing Quality Control issues as well.

 

That said, many owners of Tesla vehicle get them under a Lease, so they don't care about Quality Control. Anything is covered under warranty which they get to match their lease period, and that is all. Very few buys the cars and plan to keep it for 10 years or something.

 

Where I am, Montreal, in Canada, you see A LOT of Tesla. I don't recall 1 week without seeing one parked in a mall parking lot or on the road, summer or winter.

 

This so much. Your never going to get an electric car thats cheap and any good anytime soon, the battery tech isn't there yet. Motors aren't such a big deal, high efficiency compact electric motors have been around for ages, getting them cheap enough is tricky, but not impossible either from a technical standpoint. But the batteries, thats rough as all hell.

[MattMatt]

Tesla has single handedly ignited the change to electric vehicles, that was Elon's goal, not to take over the automotive industry but to make them want to change and sustain the push. That's why they started with luxury cars, as others have stated it changed people's perspective, got the desired attention. 

 

It's phenomenal how quickly things are changing and how normal electric cars already are in such a short space of time. I think it's amazing how well Tesla has done despite the onslaught of negativity and unfair criticism they've faced. It's like abusing an 18 year old for not being as good or efficient at work as a 50 year old veteran. They're young and not perfect, but they may well go on to lead the world. We're lucky Tesla wasn't killed by these short sighted nihilistic people. The big players obviously had their reasons to try and take down Tesla but many of the general public just seem so short sighted... stating their gas car is better, well I'm not surprised given the decades of refinement and infrastructure, it's the '50 year old employee'.

 

You don't buy a Tesla to save money right now. If you have the money it's about creating a better future, one without air and noise pollution, and one with less extreme weather cycles. 

 

I agree with the repair issues and wish Tesla allowed 3rd party repairs but it could well be a necessity right now to limit the chance of more negative press when inevitably someone fixes something wrong and Tesla get the blame.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, asus killer said:

crooked and defunct? they were audit by one of the top audit companies in the world and the audits where public, i'm at a lost.

 

Why are you lost.  You told me to google Enron, I only asked you to explain it.  If you have a point to make then make it, if you don't why do you keep posting and making claims of being lost.

 

It's simple, explain why you think Enron is important to my post. How is it important? on what grounds is it relevant to what I said?

 

You can't just tell me to google a company and then act as if that is all the information required. 

 

 

[Mr.Dingle]

5 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

The problem is that previously, all car manufacture took the bottom to top approach. Focusing on making the electric car the least expensive as possible. This has given a bad image to electric cars.

Wouldnt say thats a problem , but to each his own i suppose.

[jagdtigger]

9 hours ago, Mihle said:

Depends.

On paper electric cars should have stuff break less often.

In some countries like here electricity is quite a bit cheaper than petrol. And the more hydro and wind is built for example, that's going to be more the case in others too.

Also, if more governments do as here and have no tax/vat on electric cars..... (And compensate with more on petrol/diesel)

It doesnt matter how cheap the electricity, after EV's starting to really take off rest assured governments will introduce a tax for it. Same with compensations. BTW even those only support the wealthy. Most of the population can only afford one used, maybe a new IC car with a huge loan (hybrids are just a gimmick so i usually ignore them). Its just economically not feasible to buy an EV and have/rent an IC just for long trips. (Plus the charge network for EV's still close to non-existent,  not to mention in my area there are a lot of houses without parking space so charging overnight is problematic[the cables would be gone along with the adapter for instance].)

[Deus Voltage]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Why are you lost.  You told me to google Enron, I only asked you to explain it.  If you have a point to make then make it, if you don't why do you keep posting and making claims of being lost.

 

It's simple, explain why you think Enron is important to my post. How is it important? on what grounds is it relevant to what I said?

 

You can't just tell me to google a company and then act as if that is all the information required. 

 

 

Well, you probably made a research on it already, but Enron was a company that fucked up a lot of people big time. From my understanding, they manipulated the stocks and cashed out before shit hit the fan. With that being said, I don't see any relationship between Tesla and Enron. Tesla is gonna be fine for a long time, I even plan on investing in the company at some point.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Deus Voltage said:

Well, you probably made a research on it already, but Enron was a company that fucked up a lot of people big time. From my understanding, they manipulated the stocks and cashed out before shit hit the fan. With that being said, I don't see any relationship between Tesla and Enron. Tesla is gonna be fine for a long time, I even plan on investing in the company at some point.

 

The only thing I know about Enron is that they were dodgy and burnt the books to the degree that people where charged and laws were introduced to prevent it happening again.    All I want to know is why Asus killer thinks it is relevant to my post?  does he agree/disagree? have some further information that he thinks I should just know? 

[CarlBar]

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

The only thing I know about Enron is that they were dodgy and burnt the books to the degree that people where charged and laws were introduced to prevent it happening again.    All I want to know is why Asus killer thinks it is relevant to my post?  does he agree/disagree? have some further information that he thinks I should just know? 

 

This started from a "they have to publicly publish stuff" comment by you. Enron had to do the same, they where still able to hide a tone of dodgy stuff. How your unable to figure that out on your ow i have no idea.

[Wildosvt]

22 hours ago, vetali said:

They both paid those bailouts back long ago. Ford also was bailed out, and has not fully paid off its debts. Toyota was bailed out by the Japanese government, but they got double dinged by the recession and gas pedal recall. Nissan had a hefty loan to build an EV plant to build the Leaf. Tesla was also given a relatively small loan.

 

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2016/09/21/trump-should-be-asking-will-ford-pay-off-its-government-loan-before-moving-small-cars-to-mexico/#3a0e75af5e37

 

https://www.foxnews.com/story/toyota-seeking-government-bailout-in-japan

 

The problem with GM was even after post bailout restructuring, they still had too many models with not enough shared platforms. Could of saved a ton of jobs today if they had more shared platforms between sedans and crossovers. Also having 5 different sedans didn't help. Really terrible management. Tesla would be smart not to dig themselves that hole by creating a crossover based off the Model 3 platform. 

 

Ford did not get a bailout. Ford took a loan like many others did to build build more fuel efficient vehicles in plants that built trucks. This is vastly different to what GM and Chrysler did with their true bailout. The interest was super low at a time when you could not get loans thanks in part to wallstreet. It was not a bailout it was a loan.. Ford had already did it's restructure prior to GM and Chrylser's issues and was smart to have done it. Ford has a couple years left on the terms of the DOE loan to pay it off. No worries, I can state this as a fact as I am a Ford employee and that era had a-lot to do with my family's well being. 

 

 

I will agree with you about GM, While they are truly a new company (I am sure you know the GM you see is today is not really the GM of pre-bailout) they sure are using the old way of thinking. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

 

This started from a "they have to publicly publish stuff" comment by you. Enron had to do the same, they where still able to hide a tone of dodgy stuff. How your unable to figure that out on your ow i have no idea.

You know that the laws have changed substantially since then? and that having one company temporarily find away around old laws doesn't mean they all do and can. 

 

By that same logic the community standards don't work to keep this forum mostly civil because some time ago someone didn't abide by the original terms.

 

EDIT: and besides all that, in this exact case the financials reported by Tesla don't appear to be erroneous and are part of the reason so many people knew they were on the brink. 

[Cyanara]

9 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Their designs are generic and their cars are still as niche as ever. The only reason they're noticeable is because they lack grills.

Yeah, that statement doesn't even remotely relate to anything I was saying.

[killertek78]

On 11/26/2018 at 9:59 PM, williamcll said:

So what's the best alternative EV to the model 3 right now? E-golf?

Define alternative, Range? Size? Etc..

 

Hyundai Kona EV comes to mind, EPA range of 258 miles. They look and feel like normal ass cars from my understanding. 

 

The EV issue is range anxiety, quirkyness for the sake of quirkyness, and cost. Oh, and range. I can very easily do 1000Km in a day(multiple times this year already) with my lil turbo 1.6L, and still only fill up once(600+Km) in that distance, in minutes, not hours, pretty much anywhere I want. Until EV has that kind of convenience, it will never truly take over. Hopefully by that time, we will have moved on to hydrogen fuel cell, where we really should be focusing our collective efforts. EV is a stop gap band aid solution, always has been.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, killertek78 said:

 I can very easily do 1000Km in a day(multiple times this year already) with my lil turbo 1.6L,

The year is almost over so whats that two or three times?  Also it is a very important factor that not everyone does that, in fact most people travel less than 100K (80Mile) a day.  Which is well within the range of nearly all electric vehicles not even considering hybrids.

 

3 hours ago, killertek78 said:

and still only fill up once(600+Km) in that distance, in minutes, not hours, pretty much anywhere I want. Until EV has that kind of convenience, it will never truly take over.

I think you underestimate the required convenience of something before it becomes mainstream.  In developed countries,  petrol will become less popular than electric within years and petrol/diesel will be relegated to remote areas and long haul/heavy load usage.

[ZestyJalapeno]

10 hours ago, ScootsMcgoots said:

I know nothing about business and economics, but Tesla claims they're a tech company not a car company. From what I understand tech companies like Amazon purposely operate on very thin margins and spend allot of their capital.

Correct, Amazon until 2015-ish never made profits proportional to their massive revenue. They operate pretty much on investor $$$ deluge because golden egg companies like Amazon and to an extent Tesla focus on growth and expansion rather than paying dividends. Profit and dividend happens when you approach monopoly and you have carte blanche to stagnate.

[maartendc]

On 11/26/2018 at 6:53 PM, SlimyPython said:

Did you ever want the Unrepairability like apple

 

Did you ever want the issues like microsoft (poor 1809)

 

Did you ever want the overpriced products like apple

 

Did you ever want the build quality of many budget things

 

DID YOU EVER WANT EVERYTHING ABOVE

well... here is tesla

I don't know if their products are overpriced... Hard to compare when there are very few similar products on the market.

 

Who else makes a luxury sedan that is all electric? Like the BMW i8 or something? That is overpriced as well. Most other all-electric cars are compact cars, like the Nissan Leaf.

 

I don't know much about cars, but I always assumed the price of the Model S was partially due to the price of the batteries and electronics in it, and partly because it is a luxury vehicle. The Model 3 doesn't seem that overpriced compared to other mid-size cars.

[Big Head Tech]

On 11/26/2018 at 6:11 PM, BuckGup said:

As GM lays of 14,000 people

You know why?  GM Banked on the US following the rest of the worlds trend of smaller & more eco friendly/fuel efficiency vehicles.  Instead, we want gas hungry trucks & SUV's and fuel efficient CUV's which by European Standards, "must tow a gas station behind it".  My VW Gold GTI gets around 26-29mpg in the city which is 8.5-9L per 100km which is substandard at best.

[BuckGup]

14 minutes ago, Snaeb said:

You know why?  GM Banked on the US following the rest of the worlds trend of smaller & more eco friendly/fuel efficiency vehicles.  Instead, we want gas hungry trucks & SUV's and fuel efficient CUV's which by European Standards, "must tow a gas station behind it".  My VW Gold GTI gets around 26-29mpg in the city which is 8.5-9L per 100km which is substandard at best.

Yeah Ford axed every small car they have and only have SUVs and trucks now

[michaelocarroll007]

On 11/26/2018 at 6:28 PM, Blademaster91 said:

Not very competitive when Tesla can't deliver on their promised output of Model 3's, lots of issues as mentioned with build quality, nearly impossible to get aftermarket parts,and their cars are still really overpriced compared to other companies EV's. Perhaps Tesla should do like Apple did and stop publishing their sales numbers.

I mean is there really any competition to the Model 3/ S / or even X. 

 

Even considering gas cars the model 3  Audi A4  Price, Performance and quality it stacks up Decently. Though each have there own advantages argubly 

 

Quote

 

 Quarter 3 to put the Model 3's success in perspective, Tesla sold more Model 3s than GM sold Cadillacs or Buicks -- of any model. The Model 3 also outsold all Honda Acuras and Ford's Lincolns and Tesla sold more Model 3s than Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Audi sold cars (when including SUVs, the big four luxury makers each outsold the Model 3).

The Model 3 surpassed those established brands even though Tesla doesn't advertise and, in most cases, Tesla has far fewer stores than its competitors' dealership network.

 

 

[michaelocarroll007]

On 11/27/2018 at 11:36 AM, GoodBytes said:

 

Last 3 months have been Crazy went from seeing a model 3 like once a month  To Multiple in a day Everyday ( I do drive a good amount)   Model S are very popular by me though and have been for a while. Interesting to see the 3 take over though. Im assuming ill see more 3s then S in a few more months