Is honey vegan?

[lewdicrous]

1 hour ago, Tsuki said:

fair enough lol  you're right. i got my pollen and nectar mixed up again

 

but my question stands, if honey is made from pollen Nectar which comes from plants, and by itself would be vegan, wouldnt honey bee vegan too?

You'd have to ask the vegan gods, I'm not a vegan myself so i don't know how their rules apply to things made from bees and whatnot.

 

In order to communicate with the vegan gods, you'll need:

- 6 well shaved carrots

- 4 ripe tomatoes

- a handful of soy beans (for milking.. obviously)

- the will to live

- a used head band

Arrange those in a specific manner (that'll cost $99.99) and you'll get 3 minutes of free airtime, after that you'll have to sacrifice an entire coconut if you want to ask another question.

 

 

Hope that helped you out

[dalekphalm]

22 hours ago, squirrl said:

Overnight, Absolutely. Over time, not at all.

Generally speaking:

 

1. Be Vegan

2. Eat GMO

 

Pick one. Basically every Vegan I've ever met (and most Vegetarians for that matter), are against GMO's. But GMO's would be mandatory to support a global Vegan diet.

 

Personally? I have no qualms at all about eating the cooked flesh of a dead cow. It's delicious and nutritious. Does that make me selfish? Maybe. But as a society, we are capable of finding ways to humanely farm animals for food without turning to Veganism on a global scale.

 

But hey, if they can make a GMO potato that tastes like a steak, I'm down to try it.

[ARikozuM]

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

But hey, if they can make a GMO potato that tastes like a steak, I'm down to try it.

As long as this doesn't happen:

[dalekphalm]

Just now, ARikozuM said:

As long as this doesn't happen:

That depends... what does it taste like grilled on a BBQ w/ some salt and pepper?

[ARikozuM]

Just now, dalekphalm said:

That depends... what does it taste like grilled on a BBQ w/ some salt and pepper?

I'm inclined to think it tastes like any other Freudian cuisine... 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

If you're not afraid from maybe getting an earful, I suppose you can ask vegan for a "professional" opinion. 

[IrshaadH]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Generally speaking:

 

1. Be Vegan

2. Eat GMO

 

Pick one. Basically every Vegan I've ever met (and most Vegetarians for that matter), are against GMO's. But GMO's would be mandatory to support a global Vegan diet.

 

Personally? I have no qualms at all about eating the cooked flesh of a dead cow. It's delicious and nutritious. Does that make me selfish? Maybe. But as a society, we are capable of finding ways to humanely farm animals for food without turning to Veganism on a global scale.

 

But hey, if they can make a GMO potato that tastes like a steak, I'm down to try it.

We've been genetically modifying food since the stone age ... it's called farming.  It's really surprises me that people don't realise this.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, IrshaadH said:

We've been genetically modifying food since the stone age ... it's called farming.  It's really surprises me that people don't realise this.

Indeed - though Anti-GMO folks will generally try to rationalize that by saying it's "not the same"... True - GMO is far more accurate than breeding traits and "hoping" we get the desired outcomes without causing terrible side effects.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that breeding crops has gone as well as it has before being able to tailor the DNA specifically.

[AshleyAshes]

1 hour ago, IrshaadH said:

We've been genetically modifying food since the stone age ... it's called farming.  It's really surprises me that people don't realise this.

Mad cow disease, all natural, GMO free!

[dalekphalm]

Just now, AshleyAshes said:

Mad cow disease, all natural, GMO free!

Only a problem if you eat the brain

[dalekphalm]

10 hours ago, ONOTech said:

My understanding of the difference between animals and plants is sentience:

 

Plants don't feel pain, yet animals do; but this goes back to the emotional appeal that you already mentioned - so yeah, it's arguably moot.

Even the concept that plants don't "feel" things is likely incorrect, based on modern research.

Plants can respond to their environment. What is pain, except something to tell an animal that a "bad" thing is happening? (The part that actually hurts is all just neural commands from our brain)

 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond

Quote

Plants fight for territory, seek out food, evade predators and trap prey. They are as alive as any animal, and – like animals – they exhibit behaviour.

 

[dalekphalm]

7 minutes ago, ONOTech said:

Interesting read. What I took way from it is this: plants respond to stimuli, which with 99% of people agree. It's more complex than I imagined, but that's the main argument from my understanding

 

But like the article states, plants lack a brain and nervous system. They're not sentient beings in the way that we understand sentience - thought, perception, and understanding to make a decision rather than following a set of commands triggered by chemical composition and changes in the environment.

 

Yes, pain is a signal that tells our body that we are being harmed, but it's also a feeling. And while the article states that we can't know for sure that plants cannot feel pain, we know animals do.

 

Nonetheless, like I stated - this loops back to the point that the argument is built purely on pathos like another poster aforementioned (and I agree more or less), and like the article stated, the whole sentience argument remains trivial for the time being. It's moot.

And frankly, for me personally, the fact that an animal is "alive" is not going to stop me from eating them. Animals themselves are disgustingly brutal in the real world, kill or be killed, eat what you have to, etc. Humans can take it too far (killing for sport, being needlessly cruel, etc), but we are still animals too, just super smart ones.

 

If we discovered that cows were fully sentient and self aware to a human-like level (able to communicate, form complex thoughts, create technology or manipulate the environment to an advanced degree, etc), I would stop eating them. I would put "human-like sentience" as my personal level at which I believe we should stop using an animal as food.

[SansVarnic]

Strictly on topic. Is Honey Vegan?

Simply put with going by what a Vegan is and what A Vegan stands for... No. 

And there is no such thing as Vegan and Non-vegan or Organic and Non-Organic Honey. It Is All The Same.

 

But Technically and Basically Honey is Bee Vomit (actually it more complicated than that). 

Honey is a product made by an Insect, not an animal but Vegan's respect all living things and wont consume products produced from a living thing.

 

That is your answer.

Side note: Veganism is not Vegetarianism.

[SansVarnic]

Oh and by the way;

This thread is border lining a flame war so please Keep Comments and Replies On Topic.

Thanks.

[Monkey Dust]

On 02/09/2017 at 5:47 AM, ARikozuM said:

It's the same feeling that I get when someone tells me their dog loves, F#CKING LOVES, dry kibble... Have you tasted kibble from the big 5 (Mars, Purina, Blue, Hills, and Diamond)? I feel bad for those dogs, especially when they come to the hospital and a bag of Grandma Lucy's or Vital Essentials fixes everything due to higher nutrition and palatability. Give your dog a chicken wing uncooked! It'll go nuts and the bones will dissolve since the proteins haven't left ... the bone! Poor animals feeding themselves on McDonalds all day. 

Except there isn't all the dog needs in a chicken wing, they need more than just the muscle tissue. If you're going to feed you dog, or cat, on raw food it needs to be the whole animal (minus feathers in the case of birds).

[Ithanul]

On 9/2/2017 at 7:05 PM, squirrl said:

With eggs what you're saying is generally true. You don't have to torture a chicken for it to lay eggs. That's about it though. Chickens often eat their own unfertilised eggs to get back the nutrients lost by laying them. Of course, you also have factory farms where the majority of eggs come from to meet the huge demand. The chickens are given tiny cages which are difficult to even rotate themselves in, and free range hens are outside cages but often crammed inside large barns with still a small amount of room to move (yes, this counts as free range). They often have beaks and wings clipped to stop them scratching themselves and others and are bred to lay as many eggs as possible before they are malnourished, wear out and "expire" or die. Male chickens are mostly useless for egg laying other than fertilisation purposes. In hatcheries, male chickens can't be kept for egg laying, so 99% of them are just ground up after they are hatched. It's likely that a lot of the places that small local farms get their chickens from will be from places such as these hatcheries. These males are not used for "meat" chickens as they are a bred for different purposes. Again, this all done to give people the supply of eggs that are being demanded, and to profit from it and not because people are taking the odd abandoned egg from a wild chicken.

Yeah, I worked for a short time in an commercial hen barn.  Most people would probably never want to touch a chicken or egg ever again if did a short time in one.  Major reason I no longer buy from certain commercial brands that sell chicken and eggs in supermarkets claiming free range.  Not after what I saw first hand.

 

To add onto about commercial companies so call free range.  A butt ton of chickens shoved into a long barn with loud, huge fans and feed is only given at certain times and at certain amounts.  Plus, the companies supply feed with hormones, steroids, and all other goodies.  The male and female hens actually get different feeds.  Water is even control and has added antibiotics.  On top of that, the chickens are genetically modified as well.

 

The major kicker that shocked me the most was the crazy amount of eggs destroyed because the eggs did not meet to standards.  Perfectly eatable eggs, but, nope, the eggs don't look right.  Seriously, I saw over 1,000+ eggs get destroyed daily during peak laying of the hens.

 

Also, the company switch the hens and roosters out yearly.  What happens to the old flock?  The flock is killed.

I was more upset about the waste of food along with their bull crap definition of free range.

[Bananasplit_00]

On 2017-09-02 at 4:42 AM, Alariel said:

There's a bee involved (several bees actually), so no.

they are involved in polenateing everything that is vegan tho, so technically more or less all vegan food has a bee involved

[dalekphalm]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with genetically modified chickens... or anything else for that matter. 

 

Nature is sometimes amazing. Other times, nature is damn inefficient. 

 

Just look at natural corn - before humans touched it and through thousands of years of selective breeding genetically modifying it to be the delicious and bountiful modern corn that everyone loves - it was practically inedible large grass. 

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Just look at natural corn - before humans touched it and through thousands of years of selective breeding genetically modifying it to be the delicious and bountiful modern corn that everyone loves - it was practically inedible large grass. 

I think this is where the line between engineering and breeding cuts. Breeding is selecting genetic traits that were already in the plant or parents and ensuring that the favorable traits move forward whereas engineering usually involves an "unnatural" carrier like a bacteria, virus, or even a denucleated cell. 

[Foxxer]

Wow.

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

I think this is where the line between engineering and breeding cuts. Breeding is selecting genetic traits that were already in the plant or parents and ensuring that the favorable traits move forward whereas engineering usually involves an "unnatural" carrier like a bacteria, virus, or even a denucleated cell. 

Not always true - there are many examples of people cross breeding multiple different plants to get a desired traits.

 

Is that still selective breeding? Yes. But it's a more advanced form of it.

 

The end result is the same - we cross breed and selective breed to get a specific trait (bigger fruit, resistance to a specific pest, better nutrients - whatever).

 

With GMO, we're able to precisely target the trait that we want, rather than selective breeding and frankly hoping for the best.

 

There's a reason it took thousands of years to selectively breed modern corn - because that form of genetic modification is very slow and inefficient.

 

Sure there's always the potential for harm with modern GMO - but that same potential for harm exists in selective breeding and cross breeding too.

 

Nothing about either process is particularly "natural" - it's just that we've stopped using the cudgel (selective breeding), and are now using a scalpel.

 

In either case, we need to maintain rigorous and incredibly thorough safety screening for any and all foods and techniques. Something we currently do with GMO foods.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

 

Honey is a product made by an Insect, not an animal but Vegan's respect all living things and wont consume products produced from a living thing.

 

What about plants? 

Would they eat metal and salt of like they could figure out how to live off it?

 

[dalekphalm]

4 minutes ago, fpo said:

What about plants? 

Would they eat metal and salt of like they could figure out how to live off it?

 

Vegans - like the general public - view plants as living, but not “alive” in the sense that they don’t think, have complex nervous systems or intelligence in th typical sense, nor do they fee pain or fear in the way an animal does. 

 

But the truth is less simple. Some plants are borderline animals that move, hunger, eat animals, and research even shows potential for some intelligence and sensations such as hunger and pain. 

 

There is so much we don’t know about it all still. 

[DarkMatterX1]

Logical argument against veganism #14,392,018:

 

Consider the chicken (gallus gallus domesticus) - here is a bird whose wings served no earthly purpose until it was discovered that dredging them in flour, deep frying them, and tossing them in hot sauce made them not only useful, but delicious.

[dalekphalm]

36 minutes ago, DarkMatterX1 said:

Logical argument against veganism #14,392,018:

 

Consider the chicken (gallus gallus domesticus) - here is a bird whose wings served no earthly purpose until it was discovered that dredging them in flour, deep frying them, and tossing them in hot sauce made them not only useful, but delicious.

You can keep the hot sauce, I’ll take some honey garlic (made with the help of those very helpful bees!)