Is honey vegan?

[AresKrieger]

Just now, AshleyAshes said:

You may be shocked to learn that Oreos are vegan.

Well in the US anyway the formula differs in different regions (or at least it used to), not that it matters though since milk isn't vegan and eating oreos without milk seems rather depressing

[AshleyAshes]

1 minute ago, AresKrieger said:

Well in the US anyway the formula differs in different regions (or at least it used to), not that it matters though since milk isn't vegan and eating oreos without milk seems rather depressing

It's quite fine when it's on a table with a lot of other snacks.  I have a vegan friend and it's proven to be exceptionally easy to have gaming snacks on hand that are vegan only because a lot of processed snack foods omit animal products for the sake of shelf stability.  ...Including maple bacon potato chips.

[Drak3]

18 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

You may be shocked to learn that Oreos are vegan.

Can't derive joy from Oreos without milk.

[PCGuy_5960]

 

[squirrl]

4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Being vegan can actually have some serious negative health affects so I have no clue why someone would do it

So can not being vegan. It's all about getting the right balance of nutrients. Doesn't matter where you get them from.

 

15 hours ago, mariushm said:

We're omnivores, otherwise we would have lost some of our teeth thousands of years ago as they wouldn't be needed anymore.

 

Honey is basically food for bees and is stored in excess by bees so they're not really harmed by harvesting it.. well except maybe for the very rare few dying from the smoke which is meant to calm them as honey is harvested.. basicaly it's not a cruel thing.

The bees are still protected during winter by the beekeeper so they won't miss the honey.

 

Same for chicken eggs... it's not like you have to torture or force chicken to lay eggs.. and you could argue some cows could get sick if you don't collect their milk so again it's not a "hurting the animal" thing, just a mutua beneficial thing between a domesticated animal and humans

 

Vegans are just ridiculous imho

But honestly i don't care about them... it only pisses me off when i hear about vegetarian or vegan parents that impose their beliefs on they children/babies. IMHO if a kid comes to a hospital with nutrition problems due to stupid parents... they should at least get a person assigned to monitor each meal to make sure they get all a kid needs until kid can decide for himself.

 

You have some points but they aren't flawless and I'm gonna get spammed for this.

 

On the topic of bees, they make honey to feed themselves. In the wild they would make their own hives, and generally, make them the right size that they need, and then fill it with honey.

Commercially, hives are often greater in size than the bees would usually make them. Therefore they make more honey. In the bigger, higher profit circumstances, all the honey is taken and the bees are just given sugar water. Then you have what you mentioned with the bees getting killed by smoke and general carelessness when pulling apart the hive to extract the honey and extracting the bees that are caught in the harvested honey. This is all for the sake of selling honey, not for the sake using "leftover honey" from bees.

 

With eggs what you're saying is generally true. You don't have to torture a chicken for it to lay eggs. That's about it though. Chickens often eat their own unfertilised eggs to get back the nutrients lost by laying them. Of course, you also have factory farms where the majority of eggs come from to meet the huge demand. The chickens are given tiny cages which are difficult to even rotate themselves in, and free range hens are outside cages but often crammed inside large barns with still a small amount of room to move (yes, this counts as free range). They often have beaks and wings clipped to stop them scratching themselves and others and are bred to lay as many eggs as possible before they are malnourished, wear out and "expire" or die. Male chickens are mostly useless for egg laying other than fertilisation purposes. In hatcheries, male chickens can't be kept for egg laying, so 99% of them are just ground up after they are hatched. It's likely that a lot of the places that small local farms get their chickens from will be from places such as these hatcheries. These males are not used for "meat" chickens as they are a bred for different purposes. Again, this all done to give people the supply of eggs that are being demanded, and to profit from it and not because people are taking the odd abandoned egg from a wild chicken.

 

With milk, yeah sometimes, as it is with all mammals, sometimes pregnant females will overproduce milk causing them discomfort. Are we drinking milk because we want to make the cows more comfortable? Of course not. What about all the other animals in the wild that have the same problem? It's said many times but the milk is made to raise the children of the cow as it is with all mammals. To meet the demand for milk, and to make a profit you need to keep those cows making milk by keeping them pregnant. You want the milk to sell so you either take the calf away from the mother (which can cause the mother and child distress) for meat or to sell somewhere else or wean it early and don't let it drink any more milk. Not really mutual benefit is it? 

 

People can bring these topics up all they want, but it's very unlikely that they're living on some remote farm where all the animals are prancing around open fields happily squirting milk into jugs and firing eggs into baskets ready for them to take home.  Their food will likely come from these factory farms and horrible conditions where animals are pretty much just machines for many reasons including but not limited to:

1. There's a HUGE demand for animal products so these idyllic conditions are just not sustainable.

2. There's profit for the farmers

3. It's cheaper than other things: Meat/milk etc.. is subsidised by the government out of tax money to make it more affordable. That's one of the reasons why a burger can cost $2 when a salad costs $6

 

Then you have all the other things like (again, not limited to) the deforestation for land, high methane production, huge cesspools of waste from the animals and these waste products and smells travelling in the air through nearby towns/villages.

 

 It's just not nice at all for anyone except those who are ignorant to it.

[BuckGup]

3 hours ago, squirrl said:

snip

So you are vegan because you don't like cruelty towards living organisms? What about plants? They have feelings too. 

[PCGuy_5960]

13 hours ago, BuckGup said:

So you are vegan because you don't like cruelty towards living organisms? What about plants? They have feelings too. 

Too funny

Edited September 3, 2017 by PCGuy_5960

[c00face]

So you're a meat eater because you choose to be? Why clown on vegans for choosing to eat plants? If nobody is on you for eating meat and vegans have to tolerate 24/7 advertisement of meat everyday, why can't any of you tolerate someone wanting to eat only vegetables? You think people chose to eat vegetables because it feels good? People do it for all sorts of reason, some for empathy towards animals, some do it for health reasons because their body is failing, and some do it because they want to overcome their own addiction to eating in general.

 

This idea of, "Vegan, no logic, hahah!" Need to quit. Nobody gave you any attitude when you ate your meat, leave the vegans to eat what they choose, it's their own life.

 

As for OP, honey is not meat and have a lot of health benefits when taking into consideration. I would definitely include it into your diet as a vegan. The idea that, "It hurts animals," tell them to shut up. If you are empathetic to the bees and animals, then they have wildflower honey which is collected from wild flowers and not from bees.

 

[squirrl]

12 hours ago, BuckGup said:

So you are vegan because you don't like cruelty towards living organisms? What about plants? They have feelings too. 

You're 100% correct! "Plants have feelings". Why didn't I think about that before??? Well done you just levelled up my veganism. More plants are grown for feeding the animals you eat than are eaten by people. That means there's going to be an even greater amount of "hurt feelings" that way than just eating the plants that are grown directly. You can feed the world many times over with the quantity of plants that are grown specifically for feeding farm animals. 

[divito]

14 hours ago, Supermangik said:

Why clown on vegans for choosing to eat plants? If nobody is on you for eating meat and vegans have to tolerate 24/7 advertisement of meat everyday, why can't any of you tolerate someone wanting to eat only vegetables? You think people chose to eat vegetables because it feels good? People do it for all sorts of reason, some for empathy towards animals, some do it for health reasons because their body is failing, and some do it because they want to overcome their own addiction to eating in general.

 

This idea of, "Vegan, no logic, hahah!" Need to quit. Nobody gave you any attitude when you ate your meat, leave the vegans to eat what they choose, it's their own life.

The vegans that are staying silent aren't the problem, nor are the ones that are smart enough to have balance nutritionally despite their choice.

Where the vast majority of people see issue, and the reason the tensions exist, comes from those that are making the choices principally, hurting their health, or for the vegans that can't go 24 hours without telling someone they're vegan, bashing people for eating animals, and/or that preach and advocate consistently. 

There are plenty of perfectly fine vegans; but there are plenty of asshat vegans as well.

[BuckGup]

3 hours ago, squirrl said:

You're 100% correct! "Plants have feelings". Why didn't I think about that before??? Well done you just levelled up my veganism. More plants are grown for feeding the animals you eat than are eaten by people. That means there's going to be an even greater amount of "hurt feelings" that way than just eating the plants that are grown directly. You can feed the world many times over with the quantity of plants that are grown specifically for feeding farm animals. 

If you are vegan it is much harder to get your daily nutrition like calcium. So you would need to either eat really exotic expensive plants which cannot support the world or take supplements which are horrible and most of the time don't even work as your body cannot recognize them

[Sauron]

On 9/2/2017 at 2:57 AM, IrshaadH said:

This question's driving me mad, please help! 

No, because vegans refuse to eat any animal product, which includes milk and honey. However, if you're asking because you want to be vegan and are trying to understand what counts as vegan and what doesn't, the question you should ask yourself is: why do I care? If you have to ASK what is objectionable about honey chances are you don't really believe it's bad to eat it... being vegan (or vegetarian, or whatever) should be about you believing eating something is wrong, not you trying to fill in a checklist for no particular reason.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, squirrl said:

You can feed the world many times over with the quantity of plants that are grown specifically for feeding farm animals. 

I'd love to see you eat cow forage as your main meal.

 

 

Yummm, looks tasty!

[c00face]

44 minutes ago, divito said:

The vegans that are staying silent aren't the problem, nor are the ones that are smart enough to have balance nutritionally despite their choice.

Where the vast majority of people see issue, and the reason the tensions exist, comes from those that are making the choices principally, hurting their health, or for the vegans that can't go 24 hours without telling someone they're vegan, bashing people for eating animals, and/or that preach and advocate consistently. 

There are plenty of perfectly fine vegans; but there are plenty of asshat vegans as well.

You must be joking right? If you seriously think vegans going around shouting, "I'm a vegan!" You must be kidding yourself. This world is filled with bill boards proclaiming meat, in the supermarket it's all about meat, the T.V commercials filled with how good meat is. And you're complaining about one guy who says, "Hey, I don't eat meat." This delusional of, "Vegans are shouting too loud," you must be kidding yourself. I hardly ever met people who said to me, "I'm a vegan" unless I asked.

[c00face]

15 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

If you are vegan it is much harder to get your daily nutrition like calcium. So you would need to either eat really exotic expensive plants which cannot support the world or take supplements which are horrible and most of the time don't even work as your body cannot recognize them

Lmao. No. Just stop.

[BuckGup]

2 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

Lmao. No. Just stop.

I'm just saying it is not a viable solution to have the whole world become vegan.

[mariushm]

If you need more proof we are omnivores  (and to show what i said before, what makes me angry about vegans/vegetarians):

 

Italian baby kept on vegan diet taken into care after being found malnourished

 

Quote

A 14-month-old Italian baby, who was reportedly fed a vegan diet, has been removed from his parents after arriving at a Milan hospital seriously malnourished.

The baby, whose name has not been released, was taken to hospital by his grandparents a week ago and doctors were shocked to see the poor state of the baby’s health and a body weight only just slightly higher than a newborn.

Blood tests revealed the child, who was born in May 2015, was severely malnourished with calcium levels barely adequate to survive. The baby was also suffering from a congenital heart condition which required emergency surgery. He is now recovering in hospital.

 

Parents Found Guilty For Causing Baby's Death After Feeding Him Vegetarian Milk

 

 

Quote

For a lapse of 4 months, the parents gave Lucas, a 7-month-old baby, milk made from oats, buckwheat, rice and quinoa. The pair ran a health food shop near Antwerp and said they set the baby's diet because he was lactose and gluten intolerant.

 The baby weighed just 9.5lb and was found malnourished and dehydrated before his death.

 "We never went with Lucas to a doctor because we never noticed anything unusual." Lucas's father, identified only as Peter S, said in court.

The baby's organs were shrunk to half the average size and were not insulated by fat.

 

 

 

[Sauron]

22 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

You must be joking right? If you seriously think vegans going around shouting, "I'm a vegan!" You must be kidding yourself. This world is filled with bill boards proclaiming meat, in the supermarket it's all about meat, the T.V commercials filled with how good meat is. And you're complaining about one guy who says, "Hey, I don't eat meat." This delusional of, "Vegans are shouting too loud," you must be kidding yourself. I hardly ever met people who said to me, "I'm a vegan" unless I asked.

You're missing the crucial point that ads and supermarkets are trying to sell you a product, not an ideology. They are not questioning your morality if you don't want to eat meat. Vocal vegans on the other hand are questioning your morality and trying to spread their ideology. To be clear, I don't mind people trying to spread their beliefs - as long as it's done respectfully. Believe it or not, there are vegans who will call you out (perfect strangers mind you) and demean you if they see you eating meat. It may not be you, and I certanly won't claim it's ALL vegans or even a majority, but asshats do exist and denying it won't make them disappear.

1 minute ago, mariushm said:

If you need more proof we are omnivores  (and to show what i said before, what makes me angry about vegans/vegetarians):

Italian baby kept on vegan diet taken into care after being found malnourished

Parents Found Guilty For Causing Baby's Death After Feeding Him Vegetarian Milk

I'm not a vegan, but I'll play devil's advocate for a moment - this does not prove that it's impossible to feed a baby properly while sticking to a vegan diet. It just proves that the diet has to be carefully considered, preferably with the help of a nutritionist rather than trying to feed it whatever.

[c00face]

20 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You're missing the crucial point that ads and supermarkets are trying to sell you a product, not an ideology. They are not questioning your morality if you don't want to eat meat. Vocal vegans on the other hand are questioning your morality and trying to spread their ideology. To be clear, I don't mind people trying to spread their beliefs - as long as it's done respectfully. Believe it or not, there are vegans who will call you out (perfect strangers mind you) and demean you if they see you eating meat. It may not be you, and I certanly won't claim it's ALL vegans or even a majority, but asshats do exist and denying it won't make them disappear.

I'm not a vegan, but I'll play devil's advocate for a moment - this does not prove that it's impossible to feed a baby properly while sticking to a vegan diet. It just proves that the diet has to be carefully considered, preferably with the help of a nutritionist rather than trying to feed it whatever.

Believe it or not there are meat eaters who boost about eating meat. I'll be rich for every time I've heard, "This steak is so good, I need that meat, wtf is wrong with you plant eaters meat is good yo, mmm... meat has a lot of protein, you need meat to survive, you're dumb if you don't eat meat because it has protein, meat is good for your brain." Cherry picking a very very slim margin of vegans who does go out shouting, "I'm better than you," it's not better than cherry picking meat eaters who go around fighting people because they refuse to eat meat.

 

And this idea that it's done respectfully, when was the last time a vegan disrespectfully told you he'll sock your face if you eat meat? Half of the vegans I know respect each other. If you're hanging out with them and you're eating meat, you should be ready to hear some criticism from them because you're hanging out with them. The same when I eat out with meat eaters and I tell them I only want to eat vegetables and they criticize me for not eating meat. And just because the supermarket advertisement doesn't mean it isn't an ideology. Selling you anything that opposes your own belief IS an ideology, regardless if you're trying to make money off it or not. If a business choose to sell abortion in my clinic and they're promoting it through ads, guess what? It's their ideology. You can't just sit there say, "It's not an ideology because they're selling a product," no. Anything you promote is what you associate it regardless if you're trying to make money off it or not. If you're just selling things just to make money, well guess what? You're ideology is a greedy bastard who only cares for his own welfare and money.

 

Is like you people are offended at everything and anyone who opposes your habits, your daily living, and anything out of your comfort zone. Angry at vegans, angry at those knocking on your doors because you're watching hentai, angry at your mom because she interrupted you while playing video games, angry at Christians because they're spreading their love, angry at those telling you gaming has become an addiction, angry at what the f' ever opposes your comfort zone.

[Sauron]

6 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

Believe it or not there are meat eaters who boost about eating meat. I'll be rich for every time I've heard, "This steak is so good, I need that meat, wtf is wrong with you plant eaters meat is good yo, mmm... meat has a lot of protein, you need meat to survive, you're dumb if you don't eat meat because it has protein, meat is good for your brain."

And they are just as annoying as excessively vocal vegans. However, the ideology they're trying to forward is not "eat meat", but rather "vegans are dumb", which is a stance I disagree with in general terms. "Meat eaters" are not a group. There is no "meat eater" approved diet. Not to mention veganism goes far beyond simply refusing to eat meat, but that's another matter entirely.

9 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

And this idea that it's done respectfully, when was the last time a vegan disrespectfully told you he'll sock your face if you eat meat? Half of the vegans I know respect each other. If you're hanging out with them and you're eating meat, you should be ready to hear some criticism from them because you're hanging out with them. The same when I eat out with meat eaters and I tell them I only want to eat vegetables and they criticize me for not eating meat.

There's a long way between being annoying and disrespectful and straight up threatening someone with physical violence... I don't mind if you have something to say about what I eat, but only if the subject has been brought up, as it would be if someone asked you if you wanted a burger and you answered you are vegan. At that point there's absolutely nothing wrong in exchanging opinions on the matter. If you need a conversation topic, maybe you can bring up veganism, but calling out someone while they're ordering at a restaurant is annoying.

16 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

And just because the supermarket advertisement doesn't mean it isn't an ideology. Selling you anything that opposes your own belief IS an ideology, regardless if you're trying to make money off it or not. If a business choose to sell abortion in my clinic and they're promoting it through ads, guess what? It's their ideology. You can't just sit there say, "It's not an ideology because they're selling a product," no. Anything you promote is what you associate it regardless if you're trying to make money off it or not. If you're just selling things just to make money, well guess what? You're ideology is a greedy bastard who only cares for his own welfare and money.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideology

 

An Ideology is defined by a set of rules people who adhere to it must follow. Veganism is such a thing. Not following vegan rules is not. By your logic, every ideology would automatically spawn another mirror ideology which consists in not following that ideology and place everyone else into that group. In that case, talking about ideology is completely pointless - the term loses all meaning and trying to group people based on ideology doesn't make any sense anymore. It's as if I decided I want to keep one of my eyes closed forever, called it "eyepatchism", then claimed "two-eyers" were a group with an ideology and since many "two-eyers" are assholes they can't criticize me or any other "eyepatchian" for being assholes. Surely you realize how ridiculous that is.

 

Not caring about something is not a ideology, it's the default. I could eat a vegan diet and not be against the idea of eating meat or animal products - that would make me neither a vegan, nor a "meat eater". On the other hand, if I had a personal rule by which I HAD to eat meat every so often, you could call that an ideology.

 

Riiiight, selling meat for money because it's your job makes you a "greedy bastard who only cares for his own welfare and money" whereas, by virtue of being vegan, engaging with any act of consumerism, greed and anything other than pure selflessness (such as owning literally anything at all other than your bare necessities, by the way, and not actively seeking to give your life to save innocents) is forgiven and you can be at peace with your soul. You know, this is exactly the sort of "holier than thou" attitude we were criticizing to begin with.

32 minutes ago, Supermangik said:

Is like you people are offended at everything and anyone who opposes your habits, your daily living, and anything out of your comfort zone. Angry at vegans, angry at those knocking on your doors because you're watching hentai, angry at your mom because she interrupted you while playing video games, angry at Christians because they're spreading their love, angry at those telling you gaming has become an addiction, angry at what the f' ever opposes your comfort zone.

That's very ironic considering what you wrote. On a side note, I'm a Christian, but I suppose us filthy meat eaters are all the same to you. It's funny how you call me out for generalizing (which I didn't do) and then proceed to generalize like there's no tomorrow.

[jeffery7466]

@Sauron @Supermangik 

One thing I would say is that diets are heavily influenced by our respective culture, which in term is very much like an ideology.

[Salacious B Crum]

Well if your going to bee technical most plants are derived from animal waste being applied to the fields so I don't think you'll bee violating your oath Did I mention the "Bee" joke?

[squirrl]

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

Snip

 

 

None of that proves anything about humans being omnivores or veganism being unhealthy. It just proves that if you don't properly care for your child then you're a terrible parent. If you fed only mcdonalds to a baby they would probably end up the same way.

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

I'd love to see you eat cow forage as your main meal.

 

MMMM tasty!

I did specifically mention the quantity and not the type of food. 

 

2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

If you are vegan it is much harder to get your daily nutrition like calcium. So you would need to either eat really exotic expensive plants which cannot support the world or take supplements which are horrible and most of the time don't even work as your body cannot recognize them

Believe it or not, most of the nutrients that come from eating animal products come from supplements which the animals are fed. The rest comes from the animal's food. which you guessed it, is plants. It's actually not that difficult to get daily nutrition even without supplements and sunlight, and I really doubt that every non-vegan is a nutrition expert and has the perfect amount of daily nutrition in the first place.

 

28 minutes ago, Sauron said:

snip

 

There's a number of reasons for people being hostile towards vegans:

 

1. Misconceptions about veganism and vegans

2. Their everyday life and upbringing is being questioned as wrong. People don't like change and actively try to avoid it. It doesn't matter what it is, if you're used to doing something and never questioning it and then someone says they shouldn't do it, hostility ensues. This isn't just veganism, it's psychology.

3. It's a very black and white ideology. Compared to a religion (for the most part), non-believers don't negatively affect what believers stand for. Believers get the benefits of having the belief, and may or may not try and convert other people because they believe that it will benefit others. This isn't always true (especially in the past) but is for the most part, and there are a lot of other ideologies where the "base" is neutral and partaking in the ideology is supposedly better.

With veganism the "base" is fundamentally negative. People don't agree with the current state of things with good reason, and would like to make a change. Without people who are outspoken and promoting it, it won't get anywhere.

People hate when the comparison is made (again because of 2.), but the current situation translates to modern slavery on a huge scale. Back in the days, people were fine with slaves. They weren't people, they were property and used as such. They were bought, sold and fed in return for hard labour. There may have been people who had slaves but treated them well "ethical slaves?". They were still slaves, and in today's society we still view slavery as bad, and that's because people protested and were laughed at and persevered until people actually listened. Farm animals are bought, sold, bred, fed and used and killed in horrible conditions and this happens in the high billions per year. The only difference is that they don't speak human language, but they do show joy, sadness and pain. People just don't want to know about it and don't care as long as they can get that cheap burger and bottle of milk in the supermarket, and the companies selling these products need to keep making money so they come up with all these fancy "facts" about nutrition and necessity to brainwash people and get sales, and in fact they're no different from the oil companies fighting against clean power. They just care about the product, sales and company grown and not the source or effect it has on others or the environment because they would then be questioning what they thought was right.

Veganism is just the same as every other movement that sees something wrong with the world and tries to correct it. People have their upbringing questioned, get defensive and laugh it off while poking fun at those who are trying to make a change. Or see the point that's being made, do research and become part of the movement until it becomes widely accepted. The fight against slavery was "preachy" and "stupid" at the time, and the same thing has been happening with any sort of rights movement in the past and present.

[BuckGup]

1 minute ago, squirrl said:

 

k. I am still going to eat wonderful juicy steak and sizzling bacon. 

[divito]

4 hours ago, Supermangik said:

You must be joking right? If you seriously think vegans going around shouting, "I'm a vegan!" You must be kidding yourself. This world is filled with bill boards proclaiming meat, in the supermarket it's all about meat, the T.V commercials filled with how good meat is. And you're complaining about one guy who says, "Hey, I don't eat meat." This delusional of, "Vegans are shouting too loud," you must be kidding yourself. I hardly ever met people who said to me, "I'm a vegan" unless I asked.

Not a matter of thinking, I've known several people to proclaim their stance without provocation or inquiry. Again, that doesn't mean every vegan is a holier-than-thou nut job, but there are instances where some would go out their way to publicize their stance. And of course, that's not vegan-specific, as lots of self-important people exist espousing whatever they happen to be passionate or obsessed about.

And even without it being vegan-specific, I can't recall a time someone has volunteered the fact that they eat meat, or that they don't eat fruits or vegetables. If you're at a restaurant with new friends, you can simply order what you're comfortable with. Announcing your veganism is a wholly unnecessary step that occurs far too often in my experience; typically seeking confrontation and/or admiration from some type of perceived moral superiority.