Finally Someone Decided To Do Something About Miners

[SteveGrabowski0]

18 minutes ago, WMGroomAK said:

I'm fairly sure that most Crypto-Miners already take this approach and are not constantly RMA-ing GPUs back to manufacturers.

Gamers Nexus did a video where they did anonymous interviews with AIB partners who were complaining that a pretty substantial proportion of miners were RMA'ing their cards once Litecoin mining died just so they could sell the replacement as new. Nevertheless the AIB partners and AMD themselves seemed pretty happy with resurgence of gpu mining since it obviously drove demand for their products through the roof.

[WMGroomAK]

3 minutes ago, TVwazhere said:

I would argue my points are still valid and are still relevant to the conversation. Especially since you're made the claim that GPU's are not meant for computing, which is an oversimplification of what GPU mining is. 

I guess to add to your points, NVidia has a page dedicated on their site to GPU Accelerated Computing Tasks and a catalog of applications that employ this.

 

http://www.nvidia.com/object/what-is-gpu-computing.html

http://images.nvidia.com/content/tesla/pdf/Apps-Catalog-March-2016.pdf

 

While I understand that NVidia is mainly focusing this on their Quadro Series of cards, that does not mean that a standard 'gaming' card cannot benefit from this same use or that consumers cannot make use of these in a similar fashion.

[mynameisjuan]

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

2. If you're willing to provide proof that's awesome, otherwise don't spout unsubstantiated thoughts.

 

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

Proof that they die that quickly?
Even back when cards were twice the TDP with worse coolers they didn't die that quickly.

You do realize that just using the GPU shortens its life span? Parts dont last forever and running a GPU 24/7. Hell this doesnt even just apply to GPUs but also to CPUs, chipsets...etc.. TDP has nothing to do with it provided there is sufficient cooling. But seeing how most GPUs run at 70+ (I know some miners undervolt them) its still 24/7 use. Its the reason why people sell them for so cheap after because they die shortly after. 

 

Go to any mining forum about life span and the first thing mentioned everytime is "you can get it replace before RMA is up" because they know its going to die. I wish more companies would stand up like this.

[PocketNerd]

4 hours ago, Lurick said:

Tell the difference between mining, folding at home, and other applications. Then tell my why I should be punished for using a card I bought and should have software that can arbitrarily decide that I've done something a company doesn't like. Maybe the next step is they burn your System ID into the card and if you try to sell it then it won't work.

First of all, folding normally uses CPU cycles and not GPU cycles.

 

Second, Mining is just a dead-end anyway. The cost-vs-reward keeps getting exponentially smaller.

[Tech_Dreamer]

it's kind of a weird move from them , it's a product intended to what the user wishes to do ,They can reduce the  warranty period in overall aspect . but cherry picking usage scenario kinda seems a bit lame.

[dizmo]

12 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

 

You do realize that just using the GPU shortens its life span? Parts dont last forever and running a GPU 24/7. Hell this doesnt even just apply to GPUs but also to CPUs, chipsets...etc.. TDP has nothing to do with it provided there is sufficient cooling. But seeing how most GPUs run at 70+ (I know some miners undervolt them) its still 24/7 use. Its the reason why people sell them for so cheap after because they die shortly after. 

 

Go to any mining forum about life span and the first thing mentioned everytime is "you can get it replace before RMA is up" because they know its going to die. I wish more companies would stand up like this.

Obviously. You do realize that parts quality has improved, and they don't use as much power as before?

TDP has everything to do with the issue, because a vast reason the cards died before was poor coolers. Lower TDP = lower heat = less chance of failure.

 

You're quoting old issues, that may not even be prevalent with this round of mining.

[GOTSpectrum]

15 minutes ago, PocketNerd said:

First of all, folding normally uses CPU cycles and not GPU cycles.

 

Second, Mining is just a dead-end anyway. The cost-vs-reward keeps getting exponentially smaller.

I guess you haven't folded in a while? Folding at home just like mining has mostly moved over to GPU useage these days. 

[MrTiC]

4 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

Because there's a worldwide shortage of 460s, 560s, 1050s and 1080ti's , right? 

 

 

Depending on where you live .. 

Only thing worth buying is:

GTX 1050 ( 1050TI is at the price of a 1060 3GB), RX 560 2gb (4gb is 80% more expensive)

GTX 1060 3GB ( also a 50-70% price increase for the 6GB)

GTX 1080 cause a 1070 is at the same price or cost more

GTX 1080 TI is just not affordable

And anything from amd rx 570/580 is more expensive then a GTX 1060 6GB wich is also overpriced 

 

Here it is either rx 560 at 119 euro, GTX 1050 at 159 euro, GTX 1060 3gb at 224 euro , or a GTX 1080 at 599 euro ... 

Anything else is very bad in price/performance 

[MageTank]

The first manufacturer? PNY did this MONTHS ago. Also, find me a miner that cares even a little bit about voiding warranties, lol. This will do nothing to stop miners, not even a little. There is a reason every card from every manufacturer sells out when it's priced right. The only thing that will stop/slow miners, is the volatile nature of the trade itself. 

[Drak3]

 

5 minutes ago, MageTank said:

The only thing that will stop/slow miners, is the volatile nature of the trade itself. 

At this rate, I want mining to keep going. I want miners to buy as much stock as they can throughout Vega's life if sale. Put more money in AMD and Nvidia pockets, and hopefully both will put a little bit more into RnD and manufacturing.

Also, because the threads about mining on LTT are fun to read.

[MageTank]

Just now, Drak3 said:

 

At this rate, I want mining to keep going. I want miners to buy as much stock as they can throughout Vega's life if sale. Put more money in AMD and Nvidia pockets, and hopefully both will put a little bit more into RnD and manufacturing.

Also, because the threads about mining on LTT are fun to read.

Will also add a ton of cheap cards on the used market. Sure, they may have had some of their lifespan drained, but if you can find one cheap enough, it will be worth it. 

 

Manufacturers offer gamers a chance to buy these cards by subscribing to their stores email. EVGA gives people 2 weeks notice before cards hit their store, and allow people to contact and reserve cards. They are limited 1 per shipping address/customer, but it's still a decent shot at getting one. Just be mindful of the shipping. EVGA's shipping costs are absurdly high, lol. 

[WMGroomAK]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

Will also add a ton of cheap cards on the used market. Sure, they may have had some of their lifespan drained, but if you can find one cheap enough, it will be worth it. 

While not betting on it, after the current mining bubble pops, it will be nice to see all of the GPUs coming up on the market at great prices.  Would love to be able to play around with some of them in some cheap modded system builds without breaking my bank account or feeling too bad if what I end up doing kills it. 

[MageTank]

Just now, WMGroomAK said:

While not betting on it, after the current mining bubble pops, it will be nice to see all of the GPUs coming up on the market at great prices.  Would love to be able to play around with some of them in some cheap modded system builds without breaking my bank account or feeling too bad if what I end up doing kills it. 

A guy in our hardware group was ready to sell EVGA 1070's for $250 a piece after the initial ETH decline. I didn't need them, but I was prepared to upgrade my brothers, lol. He did end up holding on to them (and now he is happy again) but that's just an example of how bad these people want to regain some of their initial investment. He paid $429 a piece for those things, lol. 

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Will also add a ton of cheap cards on the used market. Sure, they may have had some of their lifespan drained, but if you can find one cheap enough, it will be worth it. 

 

Manufacturers offer gamers a chance to buy these cards by subscribing to their stores email. EVGA gives people 2 weeks notice before cards hit their store, and allow people to contact and reserve cards. They are limited 1 per shipping address/customer, but it's still a decent shot at getting one. Just be mindful of the shipping. EVGA's shipping costs are absurdly high, lol. 

The used market is something I'm not overly enthusiastic about, but I'd feel much better buying from a miner like MEC-777 than an overclocker like Done12many2, if MEC is honest about undervolting the card.

[MageTank]

Just now, Drak3 said:

The used market is something I'm not overly enthusiastic about, but I'd feel much better buying from a miner like MEC-777 than an overclocker like Done12many2, if MEC is honest about undervolting the card.

Almost every miner undervolts the card. In order to get the best hash:watt efficiency, you undervolt them using a lower power limit and custom voltage curve. Also, Done1 keeps his hardware under a custom loop. Those things live their entire life without seeing anything over 40C. Pascal has a hard voltage limit that no custom BIOS can magically overcome. Your performance will scale negatively, due to an internal safety mechanism that throttles engine clock to protect itself. I noticed it on my 1080 Ti, even after using the XOC BIOS, that while I can technically overclock to 2200mhz, it gives worse performance than 2150, and 2150 gives slightly worse performance than 2100. 

 

No Pascal owner is overvolting their cards, especially when mining is the focus. 

[itzsnookums]

14 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

At this rate, I want mining to keep going. I want miners to buy as much stock as they can throughout Vega's life if sale. Put more money in AMD and Nvidia pockets, and hopefully both will put a little bit more into RnD and manufacturing.

Also, because the threads about mining on LTT are fun to read.

I like this guy =-p

[WkdPaul]

Thread cleaned again.

 

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[Drak3]

10 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Almost every miner undervolts the card. In order to get the best hash:watt efficiency, you undervolt them using a lower power limit and custom voltage curve. Also, Done1 keeps his hardware under a custom loop. Those things live their entire life without seeing anything over 40C. Pascal has a hard voltage limit that no custom BIOS can magically overcome. Your performance will scale negatively, due to an internal safety mechanism that throttles engine clock to protect itself. I noticed it on my 1080 Ti, even after using the XOC BIOS, that while I can technically overclock to 2200mhz, it gives worse performance than 2150, and 2150 gives slightly worse performance than 2100. 

 

No Pascal owner is overvolting their cards, especially when mining is the focus. 

The point. (Get ready for a magical journey that might transend threads).

 

7 minutes ago, itzsnookums said:

I like this guy =-p

Thanks. I like me too.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

The point. (Get ready for a magical journey that might transend threads).

 

Thanks. I like me too.

My point was, MEC has no reason to be lying about undervolting his card. It's simply the best way to go about mining. Less voltage = less heat = more stable clocks = longer lifespan/lower power costs. I also highly encourage non-mining pascal users to undervolt their cards and test various custom voltage curves. It's truly the best way to get the most raw performance out of your cards. It's kinda why I question people modding the power limit on Pascal when it does little to nothing for practical performance. It's great at achieving higher "paper clocks", but it won't net any real performance over those without a modded card. 

[TacoSenpai]

But Jimmy I heard theres dem gold out der in Californieee...

[Drak3]

Just now, MageTank said:

My point was, MEC has no reason to be lying about undervolting his card. It's simply the best way to go about mining. Less voltage = less heat = more stable clocks = longer lifespan/lower power costs. I also highly encourage non-mining pascal users to undervolt their cards and test various custom voltage curves. It's truly the best way to get the most raw performance out of your cards. It's kinda why I question people modding the power limit on Pascal when it does little to nothing for practical performance. It's great at achieving higher "paper clocks", but it won't net any real performance over those without a modded card. 

Your head (sad day. No transention of threads).

 

I know full well why miners undervolt. I also know that when not thermally and power limited, Pascal boosts higher. I expect Done12 to up the power limit at the very least, because that'll net some performance.

[MageTank]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Your head (sad day. No transention of threads).

 

I know full well why miners undervolt. I also know that when not thermally and power limited, Pascal boosts higher. I expect Done12 to up the power limit at the very least, because that'll net some performance.

Done1 is running the XOC Strix bios on both of his 1080 Ti's. He also hits 2200mhz. However, it's like I said before, that 2200mhz performs like 2100-2125mhz. He also only uses that clock speed when benching. Otherwise, he only runs 2000mhz for 24/7 and gaming. You can ask him that yourself, he is very candid about Pascal and it's performance scaling. He was also the one that helped me mod my vBIOS, even though technically my card is not a reference PCB, lol. 

 

@done12many2 right?

[Zodiark1593]

5 hours ago, Prysin said:

Won't work. Miners will keep buying cards as they get cheaper. As more cards mine it gets harder to earn money, so you need more cards than the other miners. 

 

It is a self amplified issue. The only way to "fix" it is to make sure that the cards cannot run these algorithms without a driver, and forcefully make sure that consumer cards cannot be used with mining bioses. 

 

As for people trying to work around this. Add a monitor to the driver that checks for extremely repetitive algorithms ran over a prolonged period of time and have the driver to write a "mining suspect" value onto a special ROM cache in the silicon itself. 

So what is there to differentiate between something like mining, and a 3d ray tracing application (which can also take many hours or days depending on scene complexity and light sample quantity), or applications such as BOINC or Folding@Home?

[dizmo]

@Armakar I know you quoted me, but only glanced over your post before it was deleted. Might want to learn to snip posts...though if you're on mobile I know it's a total pain

 

One point you touched on was the warranty, and gave an example of your bike. The bike's warranty was likely laid out in a way that explicitly stated guidelines. This can be done with GPU warranties as well, but the simple fact of the matter is that most of them haven't been rewritten. Period. No "it's out of use", no "but they burned out too quickly". The companies provide a warranty, not barring mining, and miners are fully within their contractual rights to take advantage of it and RMA them. While the warranty can definitely be adjusted, it won't affect those who already purchased their cards.

 

Really, if anything, we might see some good come out of it as we did before with even better cooling.

[Dash Lambda]

4 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

And why exactly should AMD and Nvidia tell a large majority of buyers/potential buyers to fuck off? 

Three reasons as far as I know:

-Miners don't develop brand loyalty, so they can't actually expect repeat customers. This also extends to ecosystem stuff -I mean, miners don't exactly lock themselves into Nvidia cards by getting Gsync monitors.

-When miners get rid of their cards, there's often way more of them than usual at much lower prices than normal. That could affect future sales.

-Miners aren't really market share in the traditional sense. They're not reliable, sales don't propagate like they're supposed to, and they just block off expansion into the target market.

 

Though of course I don't think companies should attack miners. The best solution I've been able to think of is selling mining-specific cards at a much lower price than the full cards. They'd lack video outputs, have cheaper components and lower build quality (since miners seem to treat them as more disposable), a PCIe x1 interface, maybe even using specially binned chips or even a unique die that has none of the unnecessary features, and be priced low enough that miners would rather hold off of consumer cards and deal with stock issues with the mining cards because it's better ROI.

4 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Then again I have maintained that consumers don't need to use compute, at all. I know is controversial but they should kill compute at the bios levels and push miners to the workstation cards instead, they can deal with the price increase due to the other workstation features.

I absolutely disagree and am, despite my best efforts, somewhat offended by that sentiment.

For one matter, that would destroy projects like F@H and BOINC.

For another matter, that would force everyone who wants to do something other than games with their GPU to buy special and expensive hardware. As someone who is starting to get my feet wet with compute applications and plan to do more (machine learning and general number crunching), if either AMD or Nvidia did that I think I would just never buy one of their products again unless forced to (either by features or an insurmountable performance gap). If both of them did that, I... Would probably stab my wall and then rant to anyone else in the house about how stupid it is as I angrily repair the wall.

4 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

I'll never understand why people see value in virtual fake bits given to people who do useless pointless math equations on the computer... The entire process feels like a huge waste of computing power and electricity... If only F@H gave bits there would be a reason behind it but the way it is.... Bloody pointless.

 

For all I care you can do whatever you want with your hardware, I just will never understand how can people actually see value in cryptocurrency... I prefer being old fashion/oldschool and just get real money from a real job...

I wonder if it would be possible for the F@H people to make a Foldcoin or the likes. If they did and it started to gain traction, they'd probably see a massive influx of users and gain a lot more compute capacity.

Then maybe they could give users the option of donating the coins they generate back to F@H or even to the various research projects that they help. I know I'd do that.

 

Though once the return started to level off they'd lose people again, but the ones who are folding anyway could still generate money... Even so, I really do wish that there was something of value besides the coins themselves in mining. The way it is right now, it's entirely self-serving and quite wasteful.