Finally Someone Decided To Do Something About Miners

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

I wonder how many non-techies actually read that, though.  Because a lot of them are hitting the used market when their others fail.

I find it more believable that non-techies are more likely to read their warranty into.

 

Ted always wanted to know what those warrantees covered.

[vanished]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

It's different where I am.  You have some techies who do it, but most don't care here.  Most of the people interested in mining, where I'm from, are only interested in it because of the news.  These people are mostly coin collectors.

I just find it hard to believe that non-techie home users have causes a global GPU shortage...

[Misanthrope]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

I just find it hard to believe that non-techie home users have causes a global GPU shortage...

They obviously haven't we're talking people emptying any stock available buying dozens of cards at a time.

[vanished]

Just now, Misanthrope said:

They obviously haven't we're talking people emptying any stock available buying dozens of cards at a time.

yeah, that's the image I have in mind for "most miners".

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

 

All of the other stuff you mention means you're not a consumer but a workstation/professional user: Get a quadro. Yes they do sell cheaper ones that perform worst but you can still do compute.

Quadro cards are not viable to everyone. Especially not to newcomers that don't need the features of the quadro but do need half way decent performance.

 

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

I've actually not seen that happen before, so I'm probably getting some form of bias from that.  I've only had non-techies take the product out of the box, and then ask me 30 million questions.

The second part implies that only a handful of people read warrantees to begin with.

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

That would probably be techies thinking that the GPU companies will keep dealing with their BS.

Until any manufacturer explicitly comes out with a warranty AND a statement that mining is not an approved use of their GTX/RX GRX cards, it really isn't abuse or RMA abuse.

 

And when a company does, they've lost my business to any and every manufacturer that refuses to do that.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

I love the hypocrisy in this thread. The same people who bitch and moan about prices for graphics cards being high and not being in stock are the same people who instantly say no to any measure to stop the miners because "OMG it's not fair" or "No you can't tell people want to do" or "Let's ban this as well because it can be used for bad things".

You can't have your cake and eat it. It's either one or the other.

[Atmos]

100% agree with this move.

Not all miners, and I would argue far too many run their cards far too hard to try and get maximum profit. When those cards die they get RMA'd and a new card shipped out. The cards are not intended to be used in those kinds of conditions, if you want a warranty to cover application outside of what a card is designed for then you should have to get some form of adapted warranty, or maybe just buy a card that intends for you to mine or run calculation heavy, constant workloads.

 

And no, AMD and Nvidia don't encourage mining like some have said just because they release support drivers for it. Refusing to provide support for an already large percentage of your users will just generate more negativity than turning your back on them entirely.

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

If you're putting a processor of any type at that much use on a daily basis, which it really isn't intended for

According to, who exactly? I must have missed the the announcement.

 

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

That's why companies have limitations because the ones who don't usually go bankrupt.

There have been no numbers on RMAs, nor has there been anything even remotely suggesting that any increase is due to mining, and not just the statistic trend scaling up with more sales.

[GOTSpectrum]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

If you're putting a processor of any type at that much use on a daily basis, which it really isn't intended for, then your warranty should be voided just like with tampering and OCing.  One company who went under for supporting such bs from the consumer was BFG Tech.  That's why companies have limitations because the ones who don't usually go bankrupt.

As a miner and folder, I buy older hardware that isn't exactly working anyway. Such as broken coolers or none working fans. I only mine on three cards, one I own for gaming and two that I got cheap as spares or repairs. Really I'm just wanting to cover my costs of mining. My next card will be ran 100% for folding(I hope). With that said, I really think manufacturers need to have it written in their warranties that mining will void the warranty. Just even as a legal leg to stand by.

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

I love the hypocrisy in this thread. The same people who bitch and moan about prices for graphics cards being high and not being in stock are the same people who instantly say no to any measure to stop the miners because "OMG it's not fair" or "No you can't tell people want to do" or "Let's ban this as well because it can be used for bad things".

Only no to measures that won't work and are fundamentally a bad idea. Reducing this down to an RMA debate is also not the full story and really is not the issue. With or without RMA ability miners will buy cards so how big the RMA rate is ultimately does not matter, if effects board partners so it is their issue alone not ours.

 

If we say no maybe it's not no to everything, it might be that all proposed solutions are just bad either due to lack of understand about how block-chain currencies work or 'nuke everything' is just terrible point blank.

 

The solution is there it's been done before, ASICs and bitcoin. Ask for that not dangerous solutions that won't work anyway.

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

Kinda obvious when you now have to say, "this card hasn't been used for mining" when you try to sell a card on the used market.  Because of the stress/usage and so on that mining puts on these cards they tend to die faster.

People fear that. People say that. But so far, the only things I've found regarding the lifespan of GPUs being mined on are all speculation from forums. People claiming they killed their cards, aren't under circumstances unique to mining, it's not learning how to prolong the lifespan of components.

 

Quite frankly, I have no reason to believe that a GTX1080 that has been mined with will die before the usable lifespan if ran at stock settings or custom settings that prioritize cooling and power draw.

[GOTSpectrum]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

I know it isn't our problem.  Our problem is that mining farms are buying up all the cards they can get to make money while making their power company hate them.  I think a lot of these companies don't want to end up like BFG Tech.  Where you support everything your consumers do then end up paying for it.

On the contrary, I think the power companies love mining farms! They're like cash cows, after all, just like the Romans said, expand or die! Same with mining when your entire income is reliant on it.

[GOTSpectrum]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

That was a joke that was executed poorly.

I think a /s would have been a good addition but seriously, I'm terrible at getting jokes anyway.

[GOTSpectrum]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, I don't always add that.  

I didn't notice /s

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Parts degrade the more you use them.  That's common knowledge.

An engine dies faster, the more you fluctuate its usage. 

 

So far, no one has provided any reason why the humble GPU would be different.

 

Both are killed from usage, both use more 'fuel' when accelerating than maintaining, and how fast both die are dependent on how much 'fuel' one feeds them.

 

And the usable lifetime on computer hardware, save for the mainboard and storage devices, is almost always shorter than the absolute lifetime.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Only no to measures that won't work and are fundamentally a bad idea. Reducing this down to an RMA debate is also not the full story and really is not the issue. With or without RMA ability miners will buy cards so how big the RMA rate is ultimately does not matter, if effects board partners so it is their issue alone not ours.

 

If we say no maybe it's not no to everything, it might be that all proposed solutions are just bad either due to lack of understand about how block-chain currencies work or 'nuke everything' is just terrible point blank.

 

The solution is there it's been done before, ASICs and bitcoin. Ask for that not dangerous solutions that won't work anyway.

Nuke everything is not a bad idea. It's the solution, but people are too afraid of doing what has to be done.

[GOTSpectrum]

Just now, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Nuke everything is not a bad idea. It's the solution, but people are too afraid of doing what has to be done.

I feel like if this is done well humanity will have no more problems to deal with... ?

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Nuke everything is not a bad idea. It's the solution, but people are too afraid of doing what has to be done.

No it's not the solution, it's what you think it is and that's your opinion on the matter. That's fine and is not one I share. I can also look at one that has actually worked and say "Yea that is a much better way". Your idea has no evidence that it will work and based on history we know that it is unlikely to work. Miners will just make custom drivers, been done before in the Linux community. Messing with drivers will not work.

 

Introducing a competitive and compelling alternative is and has always been the solution to almost everything, not just in the tech industry.

[Misanthrope]

38 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Quadro cards are not viable to everyone. Especially not to newcomers that don't need the features of the quadro but do need half way decent performance.

The second part implies that only a handful of people read warrantees to begin with.

Quadro cards shouldn't be viable to everyone. Look don't get me wrong: if compute was leveraged by many applications widely used and where it actually makes a difference that would matter to consumers then the market demand would push AMD and Nvidia to provide cheaper SKUs and in-between or "Pro-sumer" grade cards: We already have the Titan and the Frontier Edition after all.

 

But the reality is that there's just not enough of a market for that at the moment. Is it nice to cater to a small audience of amateur/student designers and coders as well as folders? Yes it is nice. But not at the expense of your core audience and spenders which is still gamers.

[Misanthrope]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No it's not the solution, it's what you think it is and that's your opinion on the matter. That's fine and is not one I share. I can also look at one that has actually worked and say "Yea that is a much better way". Your idea has no evidence that it will work and based on history we know that it is unlikely to work. Miners will just make custom drivers, been done before in the Linux community. Messing with drivers will not work.

 

Introducing a competitive and compelling alternative is and has always been the solution to almost everything, not just in the tech industry.

Technically speaking this could be detected and blocked at the bios level. Yes some miners might still try to get the card and flash a custom bios but again: From the reports of Gamers Nexus they're already blocking bios flashing at least for Vega anyways.

 

Don't assume a driver lock is the only solution.

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

But, the people who make the units have stated what I have.  Why do you think Inno3D won't agree to it anymore?  These are engineers saying it

Yeah I'm not taking their word as being absolute, nor weak speculation attempts, when no one has demonstrated the phenomenon through actual testing.

 

The only conclusion I can realistically draw from this, is that Inno3D's products are inferior and the increased sale that mining brought about, demonstrates.

That conclusion can only change once we see actual testing of MSI, Galax, Sapphire, XFX, EVGA, ASUS, Gigabyte, etc. cards dying from just being at 24/7 load. Testing that can be replicated, with the results being able to be replicated. Methodologies that we can analyze for flaws. Which I'm hard pressed to believe will happen, as LTT's residential miners that have spoken up about this all seem to have had fully functional cards that lived longer than what people like you would try to convince me, and all they've seem to have done is not be idiots about mining.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

Technically speaking this could be detected and blocked at the bios level. Yes some miners might still try to get the card and flash a custom bios but again: From the reports of Gamers Nexus they're already blocking bios flashing anyways.

 

Don't assume a driver lock is the only solution.

I'm not, just responding to the proposed idea. Bios flashing only doesn't work on Vega currently and I wouldn't say it's impossible either, just not done yet. It also relies on more than just the GPU to stop the flashing, it's a security feature in motherboards and CPUs.

 

Introducing those types of things in to drivers and firmware is fundamentally a bad idea, it doesn't take much thinking to realize this. There is also far too much scope for it to go wrong, and really when it comes down to it a GPU at the firmware level is going to have a VERY hard time telling what is a general CUDA/OpenCL load and what is hashing checking.

 

Any solution that has to monitor load or load characteristics then arbitrarily limit performance is bad and the issue is not big enough to even warrant thinking about that, it just isn't. The risk is too high.

 

And no one has yet told me how a solution that has worked before won't work again.

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

Yes, because an expert on the matter doesn't know what they're talking about.  Only a statistics major does.  That's what I got from your argument.

An expert can lie. An expert can be wrong. If his/her claims are untested by third parties, we cannot know if either are the case.

 

Or should I take AMD's word on VEGA's performance? After all, they got their info from experts. They've had people test these components, that know how to test these components properly, right? Same for Nvidia and Intel?

 

Should I take Chevrolet's advertised weight and towing capacities point blank?

 

Or should I take the more reasonable stance and trust someone not trying to sell a product. Trust someone that has no reason to try to cover Inno3D's ass? Trust someone that tells me how they got the results that they got?

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

And no one has yet told me how a solution that has worked before won't work again.

Because we're peons and we're proud!

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No it's not the solution, it's what you think it is and that's your opinion on the matter. That's fine and is not one I share. I can also look at one that has actually worked and say "Yea that is a much better way". Your idea has no evidence that it will work and based on history we know that it is unlikely to work. Miners will just make custom drivers, been done before in the Linux community. Messing with drivers will not work.

 

Introducing a competitive and compelling alternative is and has always been the solution to almost everything, not just in the tech industry.

Alternatives are not always the solution. The solution is either ban all crypto currencies, or make it so that whenever the card detects mining software being executed to block it from running. Whether through the bios or driver, doesn't matter, just block it.

I get the fact that you don't like nuking the crypto currencies, ok fine with that. No nuking.

But having AMD and Nvidia blocking their video cards from running mining software has to be done.