Finally Someone Decided To Do Something About Miners

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

 

@done12many2 You've basically wasted your time typing that out. It's something I gathered from past conversations. Sorry if I don't make my point clear to other people.

 

No worries. Just sharing my experience to date. 

 

Somewhat on topic.  I mine and I game. Don't know where that fits in with all these pages or presumably back on forth.  

[Drak3]

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

No worries. Just sharing my experience to date. 

 

Somewhat on topic.  I mine and I game. Don't know where that fits in with all these pages or presumably back on forth.  

Is your card dead yet? Did you brutally murder it, as Inno3D claims?

 

Can I see the bloodied remains?

[done12many2]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Is your card dead yet? Did you brutally murder it, as Inno3D claims?

 

Can I see the bloodied remains?

 

No carnage to report. No signs of degradation or anything of the sort. Admittedly I haven't done a great deal of mining, but they've seen a lot of folding.  They never get warmer than high 30's under load so that may factor in slightly. 

[rockking1379]

For everyone asking how they could tell it wouldn’t be hard. Think of an SSD with all the SMART data. Basically add that to new GPUs and theycould easily tell. If a six month old card shows say over a thousand hours above a given threshold (say 80%) then you can induce it was likely used for an application it wasn’t designed for. 

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, rockking1379 said:

it was likely used for an application it wasn’t designed for. 

Every GPU on the market today is designed of one very specific task:

 

Running highly parallelized code in a slave role, as the co-processor to your CPU.

Beyond that, they aren't designed for certain coding, they're designed for certain target audiences.

 

They're commonly used for Netflix and gaming, but that isn't their only function. And 24/7 use is also not misuse.

6 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

No carnage to report. No signs of degradation or anything of the sort. Admittedly I haven't done a great deal of mining, but they've seen a lot of folding.  They never get warmer than high 30's under load so that may factor in slightly. 

But the experts! They said! They said, the experts! The experts, they said!

 

(Reading that in Morty's voice, or some other dumb cartoon character voice, is optional).

[DeScruff]

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Really? So far, everything points to it being the exact same thing - inferior product failing to withstand a task that it should be able to withstand.

Yep I remember it being a big thing 3 or 4 years ago. http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3517/t/19492918

 

Though I am gonna disagree with you on the "Task it should be able to withstand" At no point did any company claim these consumer grade cards were rated for 24/7 100% load, and its unreasonable to expect such from practically any consumer grade product.

If we were talking Professional workstation cards, or whatever meant for a server/Super computer. You would have a better leg to stand on, but miners are not interested in Professional GPUs, they are more likely to grab the cheapest card they can get their hands on.

[Drak3]

Just now, Sypran said:

Task it should be able to withstand" At no point did any company claim these consumer grade cards were rated for 24/7 100% load, and its unreasonable to expect such from practically any consumer grade product.

With an understanding of the binning process and how Quadro and GTX lineups come to be, it really isn't. Most difference comes down to firmware, the main hardware differences being NVLink and ECC RAM.

 

We've also seen them running 24/7 at high loads with folding at home use cases. Long story short, they can do 24/7 operation when ran at stock settings or settings that promote longer life when ran at consistant load.

 

Quite frankly, the only tasks these things shouldn't be able to withstand are programs that are actively trying to thermal throttle or kill these processing units. In which case, most still withstand them well enough to either not throttle, or barely throttle. They're pushing voltages and thermals that would still allow them to last for a good year or two at the very least, defective product and early run FTW2 cards barred.

[XenosTech]

38 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

No worries. Just sharing my experience to date. 

 

Somewhat on topic.  I mine and I game. Don't know where that fits in with all these pages or presumably back on forth.  

I game a lot on my 1070 mined for about 2 months with it (1 month solo and 1 month with a 550TI) mine is still fine heck I got it to boost to 2126Mhz while I'm gaming

[marldorthegreat]

Gamers don't have the absolute right to buy gpus. 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

But having AMD and Nvidia blocking their video cards from running mining software has to be done.

Why? I don't see any reason to block it. I'm not a miner and I see no reason to block it. Hardware is hardware and it will be used for what it's good at. Slapping a gaming tag on it means nothing, just like it means nothing on a laptop, keyboard, mouse etc. VR ready is equally meaningless.

 

Hardware designers put out hardware, they design it for an array of tasks not specifically gaming, software developers create software to use the performance. Whether that is rendering images in real time, pre-rendering images, scanning images for details (security camera software), solving mathematical problems (stock market analysis, science, physics and weather or hashing which is used for other tasks not just mining) software developers will use the best hardware platform for the task and right now for the majority of crypto currencies that is GPUs. If you give them a better hardware platform they will move to that, you don't have to block anything just give them the better option.

 

Too many tasks use the very same acceleration features in GPUs that have nothing to do with mining, those tasks will look the same so which one is a miner and which is an academic researcher? Quadro and Radeon Pro isn't the answer to that either, those are much more expensive and software needs developing before you run it in production to do the task you are designing it for on that more expensive hardware.

 

There is also another solution, the crypto currency developers themselves. You'll find most of them really are not totally supportive of the current mining paradigm, it doesn't take much to get them to work with AMD and Nvidia if all sides are willing to which GPU manufactures are not. Lower profit? Nope. Sell just as many cards but ones tailored to crypto mining and those algorithms run much more poorly on non mining cards due to work the crypto developers have done, I think that is more likely.

 

Asking hardware manufactures to sell less products won't work from a business standpoint.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

There's no indication that 1) Ethereum will decide that

There is, Proof of Work vs Proof of Stake.

 

1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

Is it? As a consumer I'd tend to agree. But if we're talking about a company like Nvidia they're probably itching to implement even more DRM into their solutions, more wall gardens, etc. I honestly do not think they'd consider the risk "too high" since if done right most consumers wouldn't even know about. They'd be happier if they were able to force consumers, pro-sumers and enterprise customers into their own unique SKUs without overlap.

And that is why a mining card, more than just a label, is a more solid answer for everyone.

 

I see a lot of insinuations from people making arguments about blocking mining or who just don't support it that mining sales are not that big, really if that was the case why are there GPU shortages. There absolutely looks to be enough sales to support that type of market segmentation just like there is for Quadro and Raedon Pro.

 

You don't even need cards with the compute power of RX580's, very low power cards that are terrible for gaming tailored to mining and is nothing but good at that with smaller dies that can be sold in much larger volume at lower costs seems to be a market segment that can support itself.

 

Edit:

Typo's of doom >.<

[DeScruff]

49 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

With an understanding of the binning process and how Quadro and GTX lineups come to be, it really isn't. Most difference comes down to firmware, the main hardware differences being NVLink and ECC RAM.

Im not talking about just the GPU chip but things like Capacitors, VRMs, exc. Thats a common thing most companies cut corners on, specially if they view their product as something that will be replaced in 5 years. Then again I am not 100% sure about what they use on Quadros so.
 

I think the average Aluminum Electolypic Capacitor is rated at 2000-5000 hours at 85C, 2000 hours at 105C is also fairly common. Ive read high end ones can be rated for 10,000 hours at 105C. (Generally hours double for every 10C you go down)
To me it make perfect sense if a consumer grade product used one of the lower hours rated ones because the expectation is: 8 hours a day at xx temperature (which hopefully is lower then 85C)
Meanwhile a Server thats expected to be online 24/7 would use ones rated for 10K hours, because... Well its gonna be on 3x as long.

Meanwhile Bitcoin mining is 24/7 without using the higher rated capacitors, and if the rigs have a lot of GPUs in them you can expect they are running hotter then the average Gamers PC.
 

Quote

stock settings or settings that promote longer life when ran at consistant load.

Then thats not exactly 100% usage eh .

 

[Drak3]

Just now, Sypran said:

Im not talking about just the GPU chip but things like Capacitors, VRMs, exc. Thats a common thing most companies cut corners on, specially if they view their product as something that will be replaced in 5 years. Then again I am not 100% sure about what they use on Quadros so.
 

I think the average Aluminum Electolypic Capacitor is rated at 2000-5000 hours at 85C, 2000 hours at 105C is also fairly common. Ive read high end ones can be rated for 10,000 hours. (Generally hours double for every 10C you go down)
To me it make perfect sense if a consumer grade product used one of the lower hours rated ones because the expectation is: 8 hours a day at xx temperature (which hopefully is lower then 85C)
Meanwhile a Server thats expected to be online 24/7 would use ones rated for 10K hours, because... Well its gonna be on 3x as long.

 

 

Neither am I. You're not going to get the cheapest components on consumer grade components due to manufacturers understanding the different audiences buying from them. Between overclockers, folding at home/boinc users, heavy gamers, and small/indie studios (be it game development, animation, etc.), they've got reason to push cards that can do 24/7 on the cheap. Where they cut corners are validating performance on each card, using cheaper, non ECC RAM, cheaping out on the cooling of lower end models (looking at you, Armor OC). Granted, they won't use the longest life parts, but they'll use parts that can go 24/7 for a good few years.

 

Manufacturer expectation of a cheap performer, is not going to just be gaming for a few hours. They know that not everyone can afford a Quadro or FirePro that can actually drive their needs, and the few extras aren't necessary for every user.

The only thing they're not expecting is for someone to run stock voltage, 10+ cards in a room. And even then, miners undervolt to reduce thermals and power draw.

8 minutes ago, Sypran said:

Then thats not exactly 100% usage eh

So long as the base clock is met, exceeded, or a stable, user set clock is, and the program's performance cannot be improved without upping clocks, I'd say that it is.

[NumLock21]

1 hour ago, marldorthegreat said:

Gamers don't have the absolute right to buy gpus. 

Miners don't have the absolute right to hog all gpus.

Now piss off

 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Miners don't have the absolute right to hog all gpus.

Now piss off

 

I'll thumbs up the first part, second part... not so much.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

I'll thumbs up the first part, second part... not so much.

If thread lockie lockie, can wait until after my next reply?

[Dash Lambda]

3 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

All of the other stuff you mention means you're not a consumer but a workstation/professional user: Get a Quadro. Yes they do sell cheaper ones that perform worst but you can still do compute.

... That would be a pretty stupid purchase.

If I had to get a Quadro, I wouldn't be buying a GPU because I wouldn't be able to. I'm a student, I can't afford a high end Quadro -And the suggestion that I should have to pay $800 for the privilege of doing compute on a low-mid range card makes my blood boil.

Well, actually, I would probably still buy a GPU, but like I said -I would only get AMD.

[Trik'Stari]

14 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

You know, Nvidia/AMD and graphics card manufacture can just all boost manufacturing allowing both gamer and miners to get their cards. Why would one say no to money?

Ask the dude who works with me that was a banker, who quit that over morality and principles, and now bitches constantly about how it's impossible to get ahead or work your way out of poverty.

 

He made double what we make now.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

If thread lockie lockie, can wait until after my next reply?

Nah all the really bad stuff has been hidden already. This is a very interesting debate, or is to me and it's fascinating so see the multiple different sides to it and where peoples thoughts are on it. There's nothing wrong with a spirited debate as long as it's just that and not a pure argument with people attacking each other just for having a different opinion.

 

There's nothing wrong with being pro, anti, or indifferent about GPU mining with me being somewhere between the latter and pro but I will way in and give my opinion on something being bad idea or not.

[Drak3]

19 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

You said Linus' staff as that's pretty much his editing crew.  

Never mentioned them.

 

19 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

You also brought the statistics over engineers, again here.

Should there be benefit to claiming something, and statistics can verify or counter said claiming, you're damn right I want statistics. That way, I know if the engineers are outright lying or outright wrong. And so far, I have no reason to believe that it isn't one, or the other. My vote goes to them outright lying.

 

19 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Oh ya know the guys who made up the warranty adjustment, those guys.

The actual warranty hasn't been adjusted. A sticker has been put on a box. A sticker that most likely, won't hold up in any country that has consumer protections.

 

19 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

They are the experts

As far as I know, they're incompetent fools outside of building an inferior product for a fitting price.

 

And experts can easily be wrong.

 

19 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

If you choose to ignore that and want pointless testing then you pay for that.

How would it be pointless? It'd either verify Inno3D's claim, or reveal that they push inferior product. And it'd give use REAL information so idiots can stop propogating the "gaming cards can't do 24/7 work" bullshit.

 

7 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

1 card owner is not enough evidence compared to a company needing to update their warranty on the matter.

MEC-777

Done12many2

Ithanul

 

And every member here that has been running BOINC or folding @ home whenever they're not gaming.

 

 

And when it comes down to it, no numbers and no testing with disclosed methodology, Inno3D's worthless claims are worthless.

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Nah all the really bad stuff has been hidden already. This is a very interesting debate, or is to me and it's fascinating so see the multiple different sides to it and where peoples thoughts are on it. There's nothing wrong with a spirited debate as long as it's just that and not a pure argument with people attacking each other just for having a different opinion.

 

There's nothing wrong with being pro, anti, or indifferent about GPU mining with me being somewhere between the latter and pro but I will way in and give my opinion on something being bad idea or not.

There's something wrong with outright ignoring the necessary data to make Inno3D's claim worth a fuck. 

 

And at this point, it's a shit show, not a debate. A debate has conversation that moves forward. What I'd call this, I'd probably get multiple warning strikes for, if not an instant temp ban.

 

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

If you degrade your card faster than normal be it excessive usage

Evidence. Source. Citation.

 

We've got first hand accounts from a few miners already. They haven't killed any cards. They have no reason to lie about not killing cards. We've got one person actually explaining why miners undervolt, a technique used to lower thermals, which can boost the lifetime of the cards.

 

You have an inferior company that looks like they're using miners as a scapegoat for their inferior product, and a way to skirt their responsibility when possible. Nothing to actually back up their claims.

[DeScruff]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 Granted, they won't use the longest life parts, but they'll use parts that can go 24/7 for a good few years.

 

Manufacturer expectation of a cheap performer, is not going to just be gaming for a few hours.

 

The only thing they're not expecting is for someone to run stock voltage, 10+ cards in a room. And even then, miners undervolt to reduce thermals and power draw.

1) Yeah even a 2000 hour 105C capacitor can last years as long as its cool enough. - My old HD Radeon 5770 actually has caps with this kinda rating, and I gamed on that thing for way more then 2000 hours. I could probably game another 2K on the thing, (But I wouldn't really want to ) and it be fine.

2) Actually... I do kinda think thats a fair expectation. Gaming  8 hours a day everyday for 5 years? Aka 15K hours of gaming. I don't think if you added all my steam games I'd come close to that in the almost 8 years Ive been on Steam. I believe Ive read the average person games 6.5 hours a week? But Ive heard 'core gamers' can be 22 hours a week which is still ~3 hours a day. (~5.7K hours in 5 years)
- This is GPU being stressed hours, Idle hours probably have little to no effect on GPU lifespan.

 

3)  Yep exactly. But heres the thing: Though Undervolting may reduce temperatures, how much does it really reduce? Your still putting stress hours on the thing at 7x the rate of the average 'core gamer' when running 24/7. - 1100 hours a year vs 8760 hours a year. (Which coincidentally would fit into 2k105C caps failing if they were always running at ~85C)

[Drak3]

Just now, Sypran said:

Yep exactly. But heres the thing: Though Undervolting may reduce temperatures, how much does it really reduce? Your still putting stress hours on the thing at 7x the rate of the average 'core gamer' when running 24/7. - 1100 hours a year vs 8760 hours a year. (Which coincidentally would fit into 2k105C caps failing if they were always running at ~85C)

An undervolt, on some poorly cooled cards, can be the difference from a thermal throttle, and being able to boost a tad.

Stability in voltage and thermals are also bound to be better for components than needless fluctuation, if physics and engines taught me anything.

2 minutes ago, Sypran said:

My old HD Radeon 5770 actually has caps with this kinda rating, and I gamed on that thing for way more then 2000 hours.

On many things, ratings are rather conservative. Take a look at the higher trim package Toyota Tundras, Dodge RAM 1500s, and F150s, and you're likely to find shocks rated for 3/4 or 1 ton.

[cj09beira]

2 hours ago, Drak3 said:

An undervolt, on some poorly cooled cards, can be the difference from a thermal throttle, and being able to boost a tad.

Stability in voltage and thermals are also bound to be better for components than needless fluctuation, if physics and engines taught me anything.

On many things, ratings are rather conservative. Take a look at the higher trim package Toyota Tundras, Dodge RAM 1500s, and F150s, and you're likely to find shocks rated for 3/4 or 1 ton.

toyotas really are overbuilt, in africa they use small vans (hiace model) to transport people around almost 24/7, and they put 21 people inside it, the van is rated for 600-700kg and with that many people its way over that, most other cimilar vehicles from other brands don't last at all, its super easy to find parts for the toyotas, i will try find an image of one of those poor cars:

[RagnarokDel]

17 hours ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

So Inno3D has finally decided to do something about these damn miners who do nothing but waste power and stealing our gaming cards.

Inno3D's solution while it's not really going to change things, at least it's something. Maybe this is a wake up call for AMD and Nvidia to have drivers that detect when someone is mining on their cards and brick them instantly. Yeah I know it's way too much, but something has to be done about these miners. And yes obviously I know AMD and Nvidia only care about people buying their cards, not what people do with them. But once again I say, something has to be done about them.

Except both in the USA and Canada (and I'm sure other countries), it is illegal to void the warranty for intended use, compute IS intended use. 

 

Bricking a card for mining would lead to an immediate class action lawsuit which they would lose.

[alphaproject]

I just don't get why there aren't mining CARDS... MADE to mine...  The old days of mining eventually led to the ASIC miners that led to the decrease if not at all CEASE of GPU mining. WTF changed? How about Nvidia/AMD make mining carws... problems solved...they make money... we don't need to worry about GPU's being sold 2nd hand as beat up mining cards. Win/Win.