Finally Someone Decided To Do Something About Miners

[pas008]

Funny thing is 

If a miner is rma Ing a card

He would have multiple rmas going with a company

So they have your data which can be flagged

And if You buy 2nd hand you are Already at risk buying 2nd hand but if you do and request rma they have your data too

Numbers can be easily tracked through sales and region/etc that's what serial numbers at for

Many cries for supply and demand

And data sales etc can be traced by serial numbers 

 

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

After glancing at the first page or so... people actually attempted to RMA their dead mining card? And they actually got a replacement? I must be in wrong line of business.

 

Just now, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Alternatives are not always the solution. The solution is either ban all crypto currencies, or make it so that whenever the card detects mining software being executed to block it from running. Whether through the bios or driver, doesn't matter, just block it.

I get the fact that you don't like nuking the crypto currencies, ok fine with that. No nuking.

But having AMD and Nvidia blocking their video cards from running mining software has to be done.

Hackers will just find ways around it and we'll be back to the status quo.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Alternatives are not always the solution. The solution is either ban all crypto currencies, or make it so that whenever the card detects mining software being executed to block it from running. Whether through the bios or driver, doesn't matter, just block it.

I get the fact that you don't like nuking the crypto currencies, ok fine with that. No nuking.

But having AMD and Nvidia blocking their video cards from running mining software has to be done.

The only solution to the only problem is doing without getting 1337FPS on ultra settings. The problem, is gamers thinking that they are the only ones worthy of a broad use consumer product.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Hackers will just find ways around it and we'll be back to the status quo.

Hackers will find way around anything anytime. The thing is I've seen this comment before and wanted to reply but forgot who said that.

So I'm going to comment to you as general comment, you are assuming that miners are clever enough to do such things. They are not clever at all.

[snortingfrogs]

Here in Sweden Inno3D wouldn't be able to enforce such a shitty practice though.

[Orblivion]

5 minutes ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

But having AMD and Nvidia blocking their video cards from running mining software has to be done.

Why?

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Hackers will find way around anything anytime. The thing is I've seen this comment before and wanted to reply but forgot who said that.

So I'm going to comment to you as general comment, you are assuming that miners are clever enough to do such things. They are not clever at all.

The average person who jailbroke their iPhone, rooted their Android, or modded their PSP isn't that clever either. But it was possible because someone smarter made it so even a chimpanzee could do it.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

3 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

The average person who jailbroke their iPhone, rooted their Android, or modded their PSP isn't that clever either. But it was possible because someone smarter made it so even a chimpanzee could do it.

Yes and who many people do those things? No too many.

[Mira Yurizaki]

1 minute ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Yes and who many people do those things? No too many.

Because there's not much incentive for many people to do those things.

 

There is plenty of incentive for miners to hack their GPUs if there's a software block preventing them from mining.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Because there's not much incentive for many people to do those things.

 

There is plenty of incentive for miners to hack their GPUs if there's a software block preventing them from mining.

How about a bios block? If they screw up flashing the bios then they have a brick and if the manufactures of the cards refuse cards that have been flashed, they are screwed.

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

they've had increased RMAs due to miners.

Is it because of mining? Or because they're moving more stock. My money is on the latter.

 

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, they'd lie over something that's been screwing them financially.

That hasn't affected any other company enough for them to deny legitimate RMAs?

 

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

They're just lying for reasons!

Or, perhaps they're lying to push blame onto miners for the high RMA numbers that no one has been able to drum up.

 

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Also, AMD had to lie to compete because AMD can't 100 percent compete out of price to performance in regards to Vega.

AMD's results are repeatable, but extremely unlikely to see in the real world.

 

Whereas the only thing we've heard is that "Mining kills cards !!1!!1111! Even though we haven't actually tested that ourselves and we can't actually verify that the RMA'd cards were used for mining"

 

And quite frankly, this seems to only be an issue with Inno3d. Huh.

Just now, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

How about a bios block? If they screw up flashing the bios then they have a brick and if the manufactures of the cards refuse cards that have been flashed, they are screwed.

 So if MSI or ASUS pushes a new BIOS version, we have to buy new cards to get access? Because if you include ANY system to write an approved BIOS, it can be abused to write  an "approved" BIOS.

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 minutes ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

How about a bios block? If they screw up flashing the bios then they have a brick and if the manufactures of the cards refuse cards that have been flashed, they are screwed.

That's standard procedure anyway. If you use a third party BIOS or firmware on any part, you're pretty much on your own. But again, if there's a process that's works most of the time then this greatly reduces the risk of that event happening. And once the risk is reduced, there's plenty of incentive to not give a duck.

 

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Well, most jailbreakers and what not aren't even hackers.  They're script kiddies  A script kiddie is probably just going to brick the bios and cry about it here or on Tom's. 

Semantics aside, the point is that once someone has a method to automate the process, it greatly lowers the level of entry to do these things.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So if MSI or ASUS pushes a new BIOS version, we have to buy new cards to get access? Because if you include ANY system to write an approved BIOS, it can be abused to write  an "approved" BIOS.

The thing this has to be done starting now with the new cars, there's nothing you can do about the cards that are already out there.

[GOTSpectrum]

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

That's standard procedure anyway. If you use a third party BIOS or firmware on any part, you're pretty much on your own. But again, if there's a process that's works most of the time then this greatly reduces the risk of that event happening. And once the risk is reduced, there's plenty of incentive to not give a duck.

 

Semantics aside, the point is that once someone has a method to automate the process, it greatly lowers the level of entry to do these things.

It's not just about automation, but also exposure, I remember when everyone had their phones jailbroken because it was just what you did. Even if you didn't use it for anything additional.

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

Yes, but there's still an increased bricking chance if the maker or a partner doesn't create the tool.

Touching the firmware in general is a bricking chance. There was a time when Samsung TVs would brick because their update process was beyond stupid.

[Ithanul]

Wow, so this company going to throw a fit over crypto?

Uh, they do relies people been running GPUs 24/7 365 with like say Folding, BOINCing, and compute tasks for years?

Talk about jumping on hate bandwagon.

Also, how are they going to even tell the difference among a gaming card, folding card, BOINC card, and mining card?  That have to be some sure fancy coding.

 

I get the odd feeling this just give the company a new excuse to not RMA your card if it goes bad.

Yippy, so we going to have something similar to mileage limits.  /s

Owner of GPU, "I need my card RMA."

Company, "Sure send it in."

Company, "Looks here that this card has to many hours of run time on it.  No RMA for you."

Owner of GPU, "But, but, I only game several hours a day on it!"

Company, "Sorry, but your hours on the card are past its limit."

 

Seriously, if companies go that route, they can go burn in hell fire.

 

Also, no 24/7 365 not going to kill the card in one to two years (unless said owner of card being stupid with a OC).  If that was the case, far more of the GPUs I had would be dead from folding and BOINC.  And, not just me, I know many from EVGA, Nvidia, OCN, and other forums who run GPUs like me that still rock GPUs for years.  There is a thing called monitoring your temps and not being a dumb butt with volts.  And, if the miner in question knows what they are doing, they sure not pushing the card near as hard as folding or BOINC would do.  I can tell from experience.  I done all three.  BOINC will kick the darn butt out of card way worse than folding or mining would do, especially with PrimeGrid or doing dual compute tasks from E@H.

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

Yes, it is because of mining.

Without sources from the manufacturers, we can't determine that RMAs have increased relative to sales increases. And even if we could, we can't say it is from mining. We can assume it, but that is the best we can do.

 

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

HIS was so overwhelmed by RMAs from miners they have pulled out of China because of it.

Source? I can't find anything with Google or Bing, and HIS' shit ass site only offers one "article" about christmas shopping.

 

8 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

These companies are sick and tired of increased RMA rates by miners.  Inno3D doesn't want to pull out just yet, so they're adding to their warranty that miners will not be rewarded.

Until a company, whose reputation isn't revolving around 'budget' or worse, follows suit, or a third party does some testing, I have no reason to believe anything other than the following:

 

Inno3D sells inferior product.

Inno3D could only boast about RMAs because they had low sales

Inno3D is now covering their asses because RMAs rose with how many sales they've had, due to all good options being depleted before turning to Inno3D, and they're trying to divert blame.

 

This is compounded by MageTank's explanation regarding miners and undervolting, and MEC-777 verifying that they mine with an undervolted card.

 

Heat being the big killer of components, an undervolted component will put out less heat.

2 minutes ago, Ithanul said:

Also, no 24/7 365 not going to kill the card in one to two years (unless said owner of card being stupid with a OC).  If that was the case, far more of the GPUs I had would be dead from folding and BOINC.  And, not just me, I know many from EVGA, Nvidia, OCN, and other forums who run GPUs like me that still rock GPUs for years.  There is a thing called monitoring your temps and not being a dumb butt with volts.

THANK YOU.

[st0rm4g3dd0n]

Yeah there is no way AMD is trying to keep miners from using their cards when they are specifically making mining specific drivers. They are going to support whatever makes them the most profit, which is going to be mining.

[Ithanul]

14 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

You can tell by how much a part has degraded in a set amount of time.  The only problem with that is you can really only rule out gaming from that.  However, you can't rule out Folding or BOINCing which is the problem without adding a bios mod that detects crypto apps, but then you'd probably have an invasion of privacy outcry.  

I am not sure how AMD or AIB partners can manage that type of detection.  I mean, heck, there is curecoin on F@H.  And, I believe even BOINC has a crypto as well to entice people to do BOINC tasks.  If this type of lock out and no RMAs does occur with AMD's GPUs, I can see folding and BOINC communities back lashing at that.  Would be a big blow on Curecoin Folding team (they rank 2nd and output a crazy 873mil PPD in a 24hr period).  Not even EVGA team with the EVGA bucks for their team members can entice that type of output.

 

I know a few individuals that I fold with in the 24/7 club that are very worried about this mentality about locking out apps from the GPU.  I am even worried.  I like to do a wide variety of things with my GPUs.  If AMD goes this route, they will go right to top of my do not buy list (and here I was considering buying a Vega to fiddle around with).

[Drak3]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

I won't even bother because Inno3D's engineers weren't enough.  I know how this is going to go.  The second I add more then you want more and more and more and more and more because this already happens.  I'm not going to sit here all night sourcing every little company for you when you won't even accept common knowledge while assuming that GPUs are immortal and can take anything thrown at them because video editors know more than engineers.  Oh, and undervoting can kill the card too.

"Common knowledge," that is untested, unverified, and ultimately, not known.

 

I'm not going to pretend that GPUs are killed so easily to explain a shitty company pushing a shitty product. That doesn't magically mean I think GPUs will survive anything.

 

But you've yet to source any actual testing that tells me mining kills cards. You've yet to source me RMA numbers. You've yet to source me RMA increases that are due to mining, and not to increased sales overall. And for one reason. Those sources don't exist.

 

I can claim it's common knowledge that OS X has copies of every Shakespeare play and Blacktop Mojo song in their coding. Doesn't make it true. No sources deny it, or even touch the subject. But because I claim it so, it must be true. It's closer to the truth than what you've been spouting.

[Ithanul]

Just now, valdyrgramr said:

An application, but that could always be spoofed.  From a physical point, if they could do that then you'd have trouble ruling out what the person was doing since Crypto mining isn't the only thing that can do that as you have stuff like folding that does it too.

Indeed, that what has me worried.  Folding requires open-gl.

One big AMD folder on another forum is worried about this type of news.  The individual is well know for rocking several AMD cards and being the first on the other forum board to test with new cards, drivers, and get the cards to work under Linux distros.

[done12many2]

6 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Your head (sad day. No transention of threads).

 

I know full well why miners undervolt. I also know that when not thermally and power limited, Pascal boosts higher. I expect Done12 to up the power limit at the very least, because that'll net some performance.

 

6 hours ago, MageTank said:

Done1 is running the XOC Strix bios on both of his 1080 Ti's. He also hits 2200mhz. However, it's like I said before, that 2200mhz performs like 2100-2125mhz. He also only uses that clock speed when benching. Otherwise, he only runs 2000mhz for 24/7 and gaming. You can ask him that yourself, he is very candid about Pascal and it's performance scaling. He was also the one that helped me mod my vBIOS, even though technically my card is not a reference PCB, lol. 

 

@done12many2 right?

 

 

Stock power limits with Pascal, especially the larger die 1080 Ti are reached quick.  You can get around PL with shunt or BIOS flashing (XOC), but you still have internal power saving/power limiting features to combat.

 

The binning/stepping of the CPU frequency is a factor of load, power and temperatures.  One thing is for sure about Pascal. Cool it well (sub 38v) and it will continue to scale.  Average to slightly above average cooling while throwing more voltage at it will become counter productive quickly, but will help some.  Warm with more voltage is pretty much dog shit. 

 

The XOC BIOS completely removes the PL and allows voltage up to ~1.2v (way more than anyone on ambient cooling will ever need). I suspect that during the winter with really cold ambients I could get my cards to actually scale well in performance past 2150 MHz, but for now with average ambients, anything past low 2100s (up to 2126 or so) results in no performance scaling. The clock just rises and those previously mentioned internal PL/PS features kick in. What you end up with is a high clock speed with nothing behind it. 

[Misanthrope]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Any solution that has to monitor load or load characteristics then arbitrarily limit performance is bad and the issue is not big enough to even warrant thinking about that, it just isn't. The risk is too high.

Is it? As a consumer I'd tend to agree. But if we're talking about a company like Nvidia they're probably itching to implement even more DRM into their solutions, more wall gardens, etc. I honestly do not think they'd consider the risk "too high" since if done right most consumers wouldn't even know about. They'd be happier if they were able to force consumers, pro-sumers and enterprise customers into their own unique SKUs without overlap.

 

Quote

And no one has yet told me how a solution that has worked before won't work again.

 

What solution worked before? 

 

If we're talking previous mining related scarcity, you're assuming causation where there possibly is none: the coin operators themselves decided to tank GPU performance. There's no indication that 1) Ethereum will decide that or more importantly 2) Another coin won't just be immediately created to take advantage of GPU mining.

 

If anything I'd say that AMD and Nvidia just got lucky the last time and this mine craze might be here indefinitively. Is already well past the expectations, the difficulty increase and several people who prematurely announced it was crashing when it just bounced back.

[DeScruff]

This kinda reminds me how Dell Tech Support would deny warranty service for speaker damage if VLC Media Player is installed on their laptops.
(Why? Cause VLC could 'Boost volume to 200%!' - via software volume, not hardware. If you speakers were damaged by VLC, it was because Dell put speakers that weren't meant to output loud sounds for long periods of time.)

 

[Drak3]

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

video editors

When did this ever come up as part of the equation?

 

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Even the OP which was bases on the engineers is not good enough as a source.

The source provides no definitive proof that there are increased RMAs or that mining actually decreases the lives of GPUs.

 

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

You just don't like engineers proving you wrong.

False. I like numbers, tests, shared methodologies. Sources with real information.

 

Things that, quite frankly, haven't been provided in any capacity.

 

They didn't even share anything from the "talk with Nvidia," only that they apparently had one and some paraphrasing.

11 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

going to trust experts on the matter

The experts that have provided nothing to actually support their claims, and whose jobs depend on how well they can push blame on miners on the very likely chance that I'm right. Bold move, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.

1 minute ago, Sypran said:

This kinda reminds me how Dell Tech Support would deny warranty service for speaker damage if VLC Media Player is installed on their laptops.
(Why? Cause VLC could 'Boost volume to 200%!' - via software volume, not hardware. If you speakers were damaged by VLC, it was because Dell put speakers that weren't meant to output loud sounds for long periods of time.)

 

Really? So far, everything points to it being the exact same thing - inferior product failing to withstand a task that it should be able to withstand.

 

@done12many2 You've basically wasted your time typing that out. It's something I gathered from past conversations. Sorry if I don't make my point clear to other people.