Reddit pulls a Twitter. Third Party Apps will cost some developers $20 MILLION/yr.

[StDragon]

Seems as though the CEO is hell-bent on burning down Reddit to stroke his own ego. Fine, I say let it burn down.

 

And let it serve as yet another lesson why you shouldn't have douche bags in positions of power.

 

Remember, the Internet was designed to route around problems and heal.

[Arokhantos]

I like how steam subreddit is now about any pictures of steam

[wanderingfool2]

16 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

DAU is what matters. Not total users.

 

$2 Million is a rounded up figure of how much he would have paid for API calls if the new Reddit API pricing was in effect in May 2023.

 

Assuming his app uses a similar amount of API calls every month, the price he would pay would end up being close to $20 million per year. In other words, he did not lie.

He's the one who used Reddit's MAU numbers, do you know what the D stands for?  Daily, and guess what he's talking about API costs per MONTH.  His whole "Reddit only makes 14 cents/user" rant used...you guess it MAU numbers.

 

He doesn't get to use DAU because it's convenient for him, he used all the numbers up to that point of MAU for Reddit.

 

21 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Will every user be willing to pay that? No.

 

Assuming 20% of his DAU are willing to pay for the app, that's $12.13 per month to break even when accounting for Apple's fees.

I revert you back to your whole logic that if Reddit couldn't turn a profit.  If Apollo can't turn a profit then they have nothing to blame but themselves.  Since you used that line on Reddit, the same has to apply for Apollo..

 

24 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

He did make that assumption.

DAU of 900,000 isn't that far off of 800,000.

It's over a 10% difference, or close to 28 cents.  Yes, 900 vs 800 is very far off when trying to state numbers.  As I said above, the DAU doesn't matter he used all Reddit's MAU numbers; he doesn't get to conveniently switch the metrics.

 

Otherwise then you have to use the DAU for Reddit in his calculations (which some estimates put it at 55.79 mill DAU)...which if you did the math if you base revenue on DAU then that's actually closer to $0.91/ DAU user/month for Reddit...remember he said $0.14/ user/month.

 

As an fyi, even if you assume 8 billion API calls a month (going higher in number than his stated 7 billion) and 800,000; that equates to only $2.40/user/month.

If you go with his publicly stated 7 billion API calls and 900,000 DAU; that's $1.86/user/month...or in other words "2x" what Reddit is losing out on.

 

So yea, he has to be lying in regards to some of his numbers

 

41 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

First of there's no need to be disrespectful of others. Second of all, it's not when you've got the size of numbers involved as in this case.

Yes it is, it's like him stating 1 + 1 = 3.  His numbers simply don't work, even taking best case scenarios in his favor those numbers stated are at least 5% off.  Taking the numbers he stated at face value though he's off by a staggering 25%

[LAwLz]

9 hours ago, starsmine said:

This is a bad take.
"it does not effect me, so therefore I have no solidarity" is not in any way a valid way to view issues that affect groups. 10% is a large group. 10% means you know someone, actually many people who use those tools.

I do have solidarity. Hell, I am part of that 10% myself. 

I think you are misunderstanding my post. 

 

 

9 hours ago, starsmine said:

I am baffled by what you are saying is misinformation. 

3rd party apps that better facilitate specific disabilities than the official app exist.
3rd part tools and bots that better facilitate moderation exist that have zero timetables to be replaced or have their API costs nulled other than a vague "we will get around to it" by the c-suite. 

Those tools you are talking about are not affected by these changes. That's why I called it misinformation, because what you think is happening isn't really happening. It's not just the official mod tools and bots that will continue to work, all third-party tools specifically designed for moderating and accessibility will continue to work without the developers having to do anything, except maybe email reddit and be whitelisted (if Reddit missed them in the whitelisting they did earlier). 

 

 

9 hours ago, starsmine said:

why you keep saying those two situations are not true or valid blows my mind. 

yes SOME 3rd party mod tools are not effected by the API change. that does not mean many or most. 

Which ones are affected and which ones aren't affected? From what I've seen and heard, every single mod tool, mod bot and accessibility tool will continue to work as before without any modifications needed to be done. 

And by mod tools and mod bots I am talking about tools designed for and used primarily by moderators, not just tools mostly used by non-mods. 

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

He's the one who used Reddit's MAU numbers, do you know what the D stands for?  Daily, and guess what he's talking about API costs per MONTH.  His whole "Reddit only makes 14 cents/user" rant used...you guess it MAU numbers.

 

He doesn't get to use DAU because it's convenient for him, he used all the numbers up to that point of MAU for Reddit.

DAU is what is driving the cost. Not total users.

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I revert you back to your whole logic that if Reddit couldn't turn a profit.  If Apollo can't turn a profit then they have nothing to blame but themselves.  Since you used that line on Reddit, the same has to apply for Apollo..

Apollo do have somebody to blame: Reddit for not giving them the time to adapt their API usage or gradually migrate their pricing to where Reddit wants it to be.

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It's over a 10% difference, or close to 28 cents.  Yes, 900 vs 800 is very far off when trying to state numbers.  As I said above, the DAU doesn't matter he used all Reddit's MAU numbers; he doesn't get to conveniently switch the metrics.

For calculating his costs DAU or MAU is fine. Ultimately what he

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Otherwise then you have to use the DAU for Reddit in his calculations (which some estimates put it at 55.79 mill DAU)...which if you did the math if you base revenue on DAU then that's actually closer to $0.91/ DAU user/month for Reddit...remember he said $0.14/ user/month.

I haven't seen a single person claim his DAU is 55.79 Million. This is all frankly irrelevant to the calculations.

 

The cost is based on API usage. If the usage in June for his app is similar to what it was in May then he would have had to pay about $2 Million.

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

As an fyi, even if you assume 8 billion API calls a month (going higher in number than his stated 7 billion) and 800,000; that equates to only $2.40/user/month.

If you go with his publicly stated 7 billion API calls and 900,000 DAU; that's $1.86/user/month...or in other words "2x" what Reddit is losing out on.

I'm fairly sure that maths is wrong. For 8 Billion API calls with 800K DAU it would be $3.12 before Apple Fees or $4.06 after Apple Fees.

 

With 900K DAU it would be $2.77 before Apple Fees or $3.61 after Apple Fees.

 

Also, this still assumes that every person who uses that app would be willing to pay that. Not every single person would be willing to continue paying and thus it would be harder to recoup the fee he would have to pay.

1 minute ago, wanderingfool2 said:

So yea, he has to be lying in regards to some of his numbers

 

Yes it is, it's like him stating 1 + 1 = 3.  His numbers simply don't work, even taking best case scenarios in his favor those numbers stated are at least 5% off.  Taking the numbers he stated at face value though he's off by a staggering 25%

He's not a mathemtician or a scientist, he's a developer.

 

I believe your calculations also made a mistake. His only mistake was rounding $1.68 Million to $2 Million.

 

[LAwLz]

Since this has turned into a pissing contest I though I'd throw some fuel on the fire. 

 

Some mods are now lying to users by sending out modmail telling people that they might be banned for using "unauthorized clients" like adblockers. 

 

So far it seems like it's only the mods of /r/absolutelynotme_irl and they are sending it out to everyone who posts there.

The reason why we know they are lying is because:

1) All reports so far have been sent by the automod of absolutelynotme_irl. These types of messages are typically delivered by Reddit themselves, not a mod bot for a particular subreddit.

2) All users who have posted this message so far have been active in that particular subreddit. If this was Reddit's doing it would be for all subreddits.

3) The sub mod has no way of seeing if someone uses for example an adblocker or not, so they must be lying about this.

 

 

I was informed of this on the boost subreddit:

 

 

[wanderingfool2]

44 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

I haven't seen a single person claim his DAU is 55.79 Million. This is all frankly irrelevant to the calculations.

Or you know you could read what I said; the 55.79 mill is Reddit's DAU...It's not irrelevant, he clearly stated he thought Reddit only made $0.14/user/month, yet you are saying he's using DAU for his app calculation yet he's now using MAU for Reddit.  It creates a massive disparity in the numbers he presents.

 

It's like comparing a delta in F vs a delta in C, and then saying the change in temperature is delta F / delta C.  It doesn't work that way.

 

44 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

I'm fairly sure that maths is wrong. For 8 Billion API calls with 800K DAU it would be $3.12 before Apple Fees or $4.06 after Apple Fees.

 

With 900K DAU it would be $2.77 before Apple Fees or $3.61 after Apple Fees.

 

Also, this still assumes that every person who uses that app would be willing to pay that. Not every single person would be willing to continue paying and thus it would be harder to recoup the fee he would have to pay.

His numbers are based on what "Reddit charges" per user, not what he would have to charge.

 

Also, you say no need to be disrespectful but it's simple multiplication, the fact that you got it wildly wrong I think speaks volumes

 

8,000,000,000 calls / 900,000 user = 8,888.888... calls/user

8,888.888... calls/user * 0.24 dollars /1000 calls = $2.13/user

 

8,000,000,000 / 800,000 = 10,000

10,000 * 0.24/1000 requests = $2.40

 

The simple fact is people like you are treating as though things spoken by Apollo's devs and RIF devs are like gospel and don't even consider that the numbers their stating can be wrong.

 

The simple fact is, when trying to compare numbers to make an argument you cannot simply just put in numbers/round in your favor.

 

And again, YES when you compare numbers you have to keep using the same metrics throughout, he used Reddit MAU numbers, so he should do equal comparison on cost per MAU user, not cost of DAU numbers.

[AlTech]

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Or you know you could read what I said; the 55.79 mill is Reddit's DAU...It's not irrelevant, he clearly stated he thought Reddit only made $0.14/user/month, yet you are saying he's using DAU for his app calculation yet he's now using MAU for Reddit.  It creates a massive disparity in the numbers he presents.

 

It's like comparing a delta in F vs a delta in C, and then saying the change in temperature is delta F / delta C.  It doesn't work that way.

 

His numbers are based on what "Reddit charges" per user, not what he would have to charge.

Which is why I said his numbers are correct.

39 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

8,000,000,000 calls / 900,000 user = 8,888.888... calls/user

8,888.888... calls/user * 0.24 dollars /1000 calls = $2.13/user

 

8,000,000,000 / 800,000 = 10,000

10,000 * 0.24/1000 requests = $2.40

Doesn't change his overall expense for 7 Billion API calls, it'd still be $1.68 Million.

39 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The simple fact is people like you are treating as though things spoken by Apollo's devs and RIF devs are like gospel and don't even consider that the numbers their stating can be wrong.

 

The simple fact is, when trying to compare numbers to make an argument you cannot simply just put in numbers/round in your favor.

People do all the time, especially when simplifying to present to a layman audience.

39 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

And again, YES when you compare numbers you have to keep using the same metrics throughout, he used Reddit MAU numbers, so he should do equal comparison on cost per MAU user, not cost of DAU numbers.

The cost per month would be around $1.68 Million assuming around 7 Billion API calls.

 

Can he come up with $1.68 Million without charging his customers for it? Probably not. Would his customers have been willing to stomach it? Also probably not.

[wanderingfool2]

11 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Which is why I said his numbers are correct.

54 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

8,000,000,000 calls / 900,000 user = 8,888.888... calls/user

8,888.888... calls/user * 0.24 dollars /1000 calls = $2.13/user

 

8,000,000,000 / 800,000 = 10,000

10,000 * 0.24/1000 requests = $2.40

Doesn't change his overall expense for 7 Billion API calls, it'd still be $1.68 Million.

Are you trying to be obtuse, you are presenting a strawman argument.

 

My statement was that he presented unfaithful numbers, and if he's willing to do that then you can't take what he presents as truth; and you proceed to make math error after math error and now you are trying to act as though 7 Billion API calls costing $1.68 mill was the whole thing up for debate?

 

No that fact wasn't up for debate, I never said that 7 Billion API calls wouldn't work out to be $1.68 mill charge if the stated 0.24/1000 api calls were correct.

I stated his stupid claim of $2.50/user was made up based on the numbers he himself has said.

 

Let me say this again, his claim was Reddit would be charging him 2.50/user, and used it to start the firestorm of the 20x cost with him calculating 0.14/user/month with Reddit.

 

52 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

People do all the time, especially when simplifying to present to a layman audience.

No, people don't do it all the time.  They present numbers where they assume all numbers rounded/made to be against their argument.  If you do so, and you conclude the cost is "20x" then you have a more valid argument.

 

What happened in this case, he changed some of the numbers to be drastically in his favor and made substitutions in his favor.

 

So again I'll say this,

He could have gotten $2.50 is by assuming 800,000 DAU and $2 mill.  BUT He clearly stated in the TechCrunch that it was 900k DAU and 1.3m MAU.

So either he was lying about his user count or he's lying about the actual cost per use.

 

Again he ASSUMES 800k (~10% LESS than what he's stated), and you would have to assume 8.3 billion API calls (~18.5% MORE than what he stated).

[WkdPaul]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Those tools you are talking about are not affected by these changes. That's why I called it misinformation, because what you think is happening isn't really happening. It's not just the official mod tools and bots that will continue to work, all third-party tools specifically designed for moderating and accessibility will continue to work without the developers having to do anything, except maybe email reddit and be whitelisted (if Reddit missed them in the whitelisting they did earlier). 

Question, are the mods on r/blind lying?

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/14ds81l/rblinds_meetings_with_reddit_and_the_current/

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

Question, are the mods on r/blind lying?

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/14ds81l/rblinds_meetings_with_reddit_and_the_current/

That post seems truthful to me. What would they be lying about and what goes against what I said before? 

[da na]

Summary

Well, it's happened. Allegedly, Reddit has removed several protesting moderators AND locked them out of their accounts. This wave hit moderators who changed their subreddits to NSFW in an attempt to cost Reddit ad revenue. Moderators of r/MildlyInteresting, a subreddit participating in protests, share details on how they were "removed with out any communication" from Reddit's staff.

 

Quotes

Quote

"[Reddit spokesperson Tim Rathschmidt] didn’t elaborate on how removing a subreddit’s entire moderation team with no communication ensures users can access their communities, particularly since they were never entirely inaccessible beyond the limitations imposed by Reddit itself."

 

My thoughts

Although Huffman threatened to remove mods participating in the blackout, I never thought Reddit would actually follow through with it. Pretty ballsy of them.

 

Sources

https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767848/reddit-blackout-api-protest-moderators-suspended-nsfw

 

[Drazil100]

On 6/19/2023 at 1:15 PM, Fasterthannothing said:

People are too but hurt over this entire API thing. If Reddit can't make enough to stay afloat then its a moot point if they should hand out API access for free since there would literally be no reddit. ITS A BUSINESS not a charity organization.

The issue isn't that there is an API fee. The issue is that the fee they chose for the API is specifically set so high that it would be unsustainable for 3rd party app developers to pay them. There has been a LOT of evidence over the past week over the absolute disrespect Reddit has had with this issue with multiple developers stating that Reddit told them one thing in private and another thing in public.

If Reddit was honest that they didn't want people to develop 3rd party replacements for the Reddit app and just said "we are banning them" people would be pissed, but not as pissed as they are now. They have banned 3rd party apps in the most disrespectful and dishonest way possible, and they continue to lie about it and try to turn their community against itself. This could have been over as quickly as YouTube removing the dislike button, or Elon Musk doing any of the garbage he has done to twitter, but instead they keep doing whatever thing will piss their community off the most.

[RejZoR]

From what I heard they have been reinstated already.

[Taf the Ghost]

Reddit has been devious and petty in most of their top-level actions for a while. Their general play, when they want to remove a subreddit that any traction they don't like is to remove/ban the moderators. Then, when the bot flood hits, they ban the subreddit for lacking moderation.

 

So, yes, this is exactly something Reddit would do. It's only a little surprising they didn't ban all of the mods.

[Blqckqut]

21 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

From what I heard they have been reinstated already.

they said this in edit 3

[PDifolco]

How can a formerly "nice" open community have turned into such a den of evil a$$holes ?

Sheesh

[WkdPaul]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That post seems truthful to me. What would they be lying about and what goes against what I said before? 

This ;

Quote

all third-party tools specifically designed for moderating and accessibility will continue to work without the developers having to do anything

The people at r/blind 100% disagree, the only approved accessibility 3rd party app doesn't have the mod tools they need,, and Reddit itself isn't compatible with screen readers and other accessibility needs.

 

Accessibility is an actual issue for a huge part of that community, yet you labelled that as misinformation, I'm wondering why?

[Isuck Assimov]

6 hours ago, motionlesslighting5482 said:

I just hope it won't go downhill with all the changes like Twitter.

Reddit CEO is publicly licking Elmos boots so it's not a question whether it gets as bad, just question of time at this point...

It was fun while it lasted but the site is dead and it will only keep dying deader

[Isuck Assimov]

Full on garbage fire at this point. we love seeing big corporations self destruct 

[Stahlmann]

Tbh i fully expected reddit to go through with this.

 

Reddit: Reopen the subreddit or there will be consequences.

Moderators: No.

Reddit: *bans them*

Moderators: *surprised pikachu face*

[TVwazhere]

13 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Reddit: Reopen the subreddit or there will be consequences.

Moderators: No.

Reddit: *bans them*

Moderators: 

Fixed  

[Holmes108]

17 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Tbh i fully expected reddit to go through with this.

 

Reddit: Reopen the subreddit or there will be consequences.

Moderators: No.

Reddit: *bans them*

Moderators: *surprised pikachu face*

 

Yeah. I mean, it's their site, and if this is the way they want it to work going forward, it makes sense to ban anyone who's obstructing their site. 

 

I'm not saying I agree with Reddit's direction. I don't really have an opinion, and don't really care. It may very well be a terrible business decision (both the API change, and any potential bans/moderation changes). Maybe it's the downfall of Reddit, maybe it's not. But it seems like this type of action is the logical conclusion, if they aren't going to bow to the pressure.

[Qyygle]

1 hour ago, WkdPaul said:

This ;

The people at r/blind 100% disagree, the only approved accessibility 3rd party app doesn't have the mod tools they need,, and Reddit itself isn't compatible with screen readers and other accessibility needs.

 

Accessibility is an actual issue for a huge part of that community, yet you labelled that as misinformation, I'm wondering why?

To be fair, I think LAwlz is trying to take a middle of the road approach here.

The only thing is, I don't think anything that's come out of this ongoing dumpster fire has given me hope that the Reddit admins see things the same way.

 

On the other side, even when this all blows over, the damage to Reddit is probably already done. We're just watching the fire burn down at the moment. Lots of long term users have already left the platform for Lemmy, kbin, etc. To go back to LAwlz note about 90% of users not using 3P apps, well, this applies in the other direction too. Want to bet that 90% of users also aren't posting the majority of content on Reddit?

 

I wonder who that 10% might've been. I wonder what ways they preferred accessing Reddit... It'd be a shame if most of them suddenly abandoned the site I'm sure.

[WkdPaul]

20 minutes ago, Qyygle said:

To be fair, I think LAwlz is trying to take a middle of the road approach here.

Not sure how it's middle of the road approach when he's saying accessibility tools becoming worse is misinformation, when people using those tools are actively trying to make sure Reddit listens to them and are pretty discouraged at Reddit's responses (or lack of it).

 

Like you said, it might be true that 90% of users are not using 3rd party apps, but a lot of power users are, and that's the users that create, or moderate the content (I think it's called the Pareto rule or something?).

 

For the rest I kinda agree though, pretty sure for the vast majority of the subs, things won't be as bad as people say (mod tools and bots)