Reddit pulls a Twitter. Third Party Apps will cost some developers $20 MILLION/yr.

[RejZoR]

32 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, but Apollo is not a mod tool. Some mods might have used it for moderating, but that's not the same as being a mod tool.

See:

 

 

Let's be honest here. You didn't know that third-party mod tools were excluded from the API changes. Many people don't know that, and that's a problem. People should know what is actually happening so that they can accurately decide what they want to believe for themselves.

That still doesn't change the fact that official Reddit client is a big poop.

[vetali]

30 minutes ago, rrats said:

what did they do a month ago

Banned all NSFW stuff, annual purges of content. The latter is a big thing. A lot of forums that didn't have their own embedded images relied on imgur in the early 2010s after imageshack died.

[rrats]

7 minutes ago, vetali said:

Banned all NSFW stuff, annual purges of content. The latter is a big thing. A lot of forums that didn't have their own embedded images relied on imgur in the early 2010s after imageshack died.

Oh hell, one music discussing forum I use still relies on imgur and other sharing sites. I seriously don't get it, I mean if it wastes so much storage then why not just recompress all old images to like 300xHEIGHT 80% JPEG, instead of fully deleting them

[LAwLz]

54 minutes ago, KnoT said:

False: https://mods.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/16693988535309

Which part is false exactly? The article you linked confirms what I said. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

That still doesn't change the fact that official Reddit client is a big poop.

I agree. But that's not really related to anything I said. 

Personally I use boost and gave the developer a tip yesterday as a thank you for the excellent client. I will be very sad to see it go, and truly wish Reddit wouldn't do these changes. Even if I modify the boost client like I intend to do, it will won't restore 100% of the functionality (like access to NSFW). 

 

But that does not mean people shouldn't be informed about what the changes entails and be free to make their own minds up. Again, the amount of misinformation regarding this is scary, and people are truly behaving like sheep by repeating some catch phrase to drown out any and all serious discussions. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, rrats said:

Oh hell, one music discussing forum I use still relies on imgur and other sharing sites. I seriously don't get it, I mean if it wastes so much storage then why not just recompress all old images to like 300xHEIGHT 80% JPEG, instead of fully deleting them

That would be better for the users, but it would also require quite a bit of processing power and storage. The sad reality is that imgur is a for profit company and most of their revenue comes from people looking at the image, and most images get most of their views within a few days or weeks. After a year, I wouldn't be surprised if an image had gotten 99% of all views it will ever get. It sucks for those last 1% but it's probably costs imgur more to keep those images around than to just remove them completely. 

[AlTech]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Which part is false exactly? The article you linked confirms what I said. 

No, it confirmed that mod tools can be free and not subject to the charges but it does not guarantee it. It says some tools will have to pay for the APIs.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

No, it confirmed that mod tools can be free and not subject to the charges but it does not guarantee it. It says some tools will have to pay for the APIs.

1) Please define "mod tools" because it seems like you and I use those terms differently. I define a lod tool as a price of software that is designed for moderating on reddit. That should be it's primary use and audience, moderators. 

 

2) Which quote are you speficially referring to and what is your point? 

 

3) When you say "some tools will have to pay for the APIs" are you talking about mod tools or other tools? It's important to keep those things separate to not confuse people, since those are treated differently when it comes to API access. 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

So a tool used by moderators isnt a mod tool because it doesnt allign with your views, very deep and intellectual reasoning... /s

A mod tool is, by my definition and seemingly most peoples' definitions, a tool primarily targeted and used by moderators, so that they can moderate. 

If a tool is primarily designed for consuming content but might have some secondary functions for moderating, then I wouldn't say it's a mod tool. 

 

I think it's best and most logical to label things by their primary intended and de facto usage. 

 

Apollo for example doesn't even mention moderation functions on their website, and in the app's trailer it is only briefly mentioned near the end. The trailer is 98 seconds long and moderation capabilities are shown for 2 seconds, at seconds 78 to 80. The rest of the video is for regular user features. 

 

Saying that mod tools will not work after the API changes, and then say this is true because Apollo is a "mod tool" is disingenuous. It's a deliberate attempt to mislead people, or a misunderstanding of what the API changes actually entail (a lot of people seem to think it affects mod tools as well, which it doesn't). 

[AlTech]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

1) Please define "mod tools" because it seems like you and I use those terms differently. I define a lod tool as a price of software that is designed for moderating on reddit. That should be it's primary use and audience, moderators. 

One would image the moderators on reddit using tools to moderate would define what a mod tool is and they have indicated by and large that the mod tools they use are 3rd partys apps and bots. The bots may be specifically designed for moderation but the apps are not.

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

2) Which quote are you speficially referring to and what is your point? 

 

That what you said was wrong about all the mod tools being free.

Quote

The vast majority of moderator bots and other tooling using our Data API will fall into the free API tier. If you have a bot that is going over these rate limits, is broken, or is otherwise impacted by updates related to the API, please contact our team.

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

3) When you say "some tools will have to pay for the APIs" are you talking about mod tools or other tools? It's important to keep those things separate to not confuse people, since those are treated differently when it comes to API access. 

Not necessarily, mod tools that go over their free allowance have to reach an agreement with Reddit and/or may have to pay if they wish to use more API calls than Reddit gives away for free.

[rrats]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

t sucks for those last 1% but it's probably costs imgur more to keep those images around than to just remove them completely. 

yeah, servers cost money as well. actually they could maybe have passive servers or something in which all images that don't get views regulary are left on old servers, which turn on if user really needs to see the image, or are kept on much lower clock speed

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

One would image the moderators on reddit using tools to moderate would define what a mod tool is and they have indicated by and large that the mod tools they use are 3rd partys apps and bots. The bots may be specifically designed for moderation but the apps are not.

And as I said earlier, I think it is best and most logical to define things by their primary purpose, audience, and usage. Just because people sometimes sleep in their cars does not mean cars should be referred to as bedrooms. I am fairly sure people would still classify cars as vehicles.

Likewise, just because a mod might use Apollo as their Reddit client does not make it a "mod tool". As I said earlier, the developer didn't even mention it being used for moderating on their website, and the video about the app spent literally 2% of the video's time talking about using it for moderating. The other 98% of the video was spent talking about how it can be used for non-moderator activities.

Just saying "mod tool" when you refer to Apollo is just you trying to make people believe things that aren't true by omitting important nuances and details. If you think this is an important thing to talk about then you shouldn't try and device people. Just be honest and as clear in your communication as possible.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

That what you said was wrong about all the mod tools being free.

Come on, you are flip-flopping between stances and arguments now.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about and just change your position and try and retroactively interpret your old posts in ways they were never meant to be interpreted.

 

 

 

Here is how the conversation went.

1) Someone said Reddit is getting rid of mod tools and won't improve their first-party ones.

2) I replied by saying they aren't getting rid of mod tools and they have said they will improve their first-party ones.

3) You enter the conversation by saying a number of mods use third-party apps like Apollo.

4) I clarify by saying tools designed primarily for moderating are excluded, but apps that aren't primarily designed for moderating (like Apollo) will be affected. I once again clarify the difference between "mod tools" and other programs to make it clear that they are two different things. Not just in my opinion, but also in how the APIs treat them. It is a very important distinction.

5) You respond to this by saying most mods use third-party tools because the official one isn't good enough (which heavily suggests you didn't know third-party mod tools would be excluded).

6) I point out that third-party mod tools are excluded as well.

7) You once again say Apollo is shutting down and you knew all along that third-party mod tools are excluded (even though your previous comment suggests otherwise and you have so far never mentioned the fact that third-party mod tools are excluded from the API changes).

8) I clarify that Apollo is not classified as a mod tool, because it is not its primary usage or target audience.

9) Someone jumps in and says I am wrong and that even tools specifically designed for moderating will be shut down, and you like their comment, which is strange because you just said you knew that third-party mod tools (those exclusively used for moderating) would be excluded from the API changes.

 

I feel like you didn't know what was actually going on, and in order to save face you are now digging your heels in and desperately trying to find a way to define what a "mod tool" is so that your previous posts are still true even though you meant something different when you wrote them. Why did you like a comment you had already said you disagreed with?

You said you knew tools specifically designed for moderating would be excluded from API changes, and then you liked a comment saying that statement was false.

 

I feel like you are now just going to agree with anyone who seems to try and argue against me, regardless of what they say and how their posts align with your previous posts.

 

 

All I am asking for is consistency and clarity so that people can actually understand what is happening. Despite what you say, we have a clear example of at least one person (KnoT) completely misunderstanding a key detail in this debate, which is that program specifically designed for moderating will be excluded from the API changes and will continue to work like normal.

[randy123]

Always funny watching these losers cry over these dumb things. Remember when reddit had a meltdown for months saying net neutrality would RUIN DA INTENETZ!!!

....

...

and then nothing happened, at all. when net neutrality became a thing

 

same thing here. This is just a bunch of idiots crying over literally nothing 

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

That what you said was wrong about all the mod tools being free.

Quote

The vast majority of moderator bots and other tooling using our Data API will fall into the free API tier. If you have a bot that is going over these rate limits, is broken, or is otherwise impacted by updates related to the API, please contact our team.

Did you miss the part right under that where they said they have manually excluded all the bots they have detected that didn't fall into the free API tier?

 

The reason why they are asking developers of these bots to reach out to their team is in case they accidentally missed one that should be whitelisted.

They are not saying "we will block some bots and tools" which seems to be the way you interpret the message.

What they are saying is "we have allowed all mod tools and bots we have been able to find. If we missed yours then reach out so we can allow it".

 

There is a massive difference between "we will deliberately block some" and "we might have accidentally blocked some, and we will fix that if it's brought to our attention". You are trying to claim the former is happening, when it's actually the latter happening.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Not necessarily, mod tools that go over their free allowance have to reach an agreement with Reddit and/or may have to pay if they wish to use more API calls than Reddit gives away for free.

Yes, and so far it seems like Reddit is very open about just removing the limit like they did on bots.

Again, they have literally removed the limit for every single mod-bot they were able to detect themselves and encourage developers of bots to reach out to them in case they accidentally overlooked some so that they can whitelist that too.

 

I think the view you seem to be pushing, that Reddit would for some reason not handle other types of mod tools* in a similar manner to how they handle bots, to be entirely based on prejudice and not any evidence. I would argue that the best evidence we got right now (the announcements of how they handle bots) indicates that what you are suggesting is false. Without evidence (which doesn't exist), this entire sentence just serves to spread FUD.

 

 

*Mod tool being defined as "a program specifically designed for moderating subreddits and to be used by moderators, not regular users" or something along those lines.

 

 

What Reddit seem to be targeting are clients designed for browsing Reddit, not moderating. Every single thing we have go to on so far seems to align with this. There is some overlap between "moderating tools" and "browsing tools", but to say that Reddit is going to block moderating tools just because of this small overlap just makes people misunderstand the situation. I can't shake the feeling that this vague wording is done intentionally because claiming that "Reddit is harming moderators, which will make the platform worse" is a stronger argument than "Reddit is going to make ~10% of their users have to use less good client to look at memes with".

[LAwLz]

20 minutes ago, randy123 said:

Always funny watching these losers cry over these dumb things. Remember when reddit had a meltdown for months saying net neutrality would RUIN DA INTENETZ!!!

....

...

and then nothing happened, at all. when net neutrality became a thing

 

same thing here. This is just a bunch of idiots crying over literally nothing 

I think you were browsing the wrong subreddits if you saw users saying net neutrality would ruin the Internet.

Reddit seemed to be for net neutrality, at least the ones I browsed. The reason why it was bad to repeal it was that we already had evidence of ISPs doing bad things (like throttling Netflix and then demanding that Netflix pay to have the speed restored). The idea with net neutrality was to not just have that stop but also to ensure that they didn't do worse things.

 

It was a law primarily meant to stop bad things from happening. It was basically a seat belt. If you drive without a seat belt and someone goes "hey, you should wear a seat belt" then you didn't exactly "prove their concert invalid" just because you didn't end up in a crash. The concert was still valid, and their advice was good. It's just that in that particular case you managed without following the advice.

 

In the case of net neutrality, the repeal of the law basically removed the "seat belt". Just because we haven't been in a crash doesn't mean we don't need the seat belt. We have also had other developments (such as local laws and a big increase in bandwidth) to thank for ISPs not abusing the hell out of the lack of net neutrality in the US.

Other countries haven't been as lucky. For example in Portugal at least one carrier at some point charged for specific "buckets" of data. Wanted to browse gmail? Then you needed to buy a plan that allowed for that. Wanted to browse Facebook? Then you needed to pay specifically for that. Wanted to listen to Spotify? Then that was a separate fee, and so on. It seems like they stopped with that though. Not sure if the EU stepped in or if customers didn't put up with that crap.

[LAwLz]

49 minutes ago, rrats said:

yeah, servers cost money as well. actually they could maybe have passive servers or something in which all images that don't get views regulary are left on old servers, which turn on if user really needs to see the image, or are kept on much lower clock speed

I am not really sure what you mean by "passive servers", but keeping old servers around is not really a viable strategy.

 

Turning servers off and on introduces massive delays which people wouldn't tolerate. Hell, most people would probably think the image was broken because at some point the browser times out.

 

The issue is also that they still need to keep the data in their storage pools, which are probably separate from their servers handling the processing. The issue might not be the processing part, but the storage part.

 

Keeping old servers around might not be a good idea because of upgrade reasons as well. You don't want to have a bunch of old servers running because it might make support difficult. They still need to be patched and such takes up room, increases the need for cooling and power, and so on. This also assumes they are using their own servers, which they might not be. From what I can tell they are, but who knows?

[rrats]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Turning servers off and on introduces massive delays which people wouldn't tolerate. Hell, most people would probably think the image was broken because at some point the browser times out.

yeah, a stupid idea really. still, deleting old stuff seems to be a worse idea

[KnoT]

13 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Which part is false exactly? The article you linked confirms what I said. 

 

16 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The tools that are specifically for moderating are excluded from the API changes. This is the truth, not a lie.

 

"Excluded" everything that uses API cant exceed the Free 100 API calls/min that INCLUDES 3rd part mod tools and APS I dont get why is it so hard to understand for you?

I would appreciate if you would not call ppl liars when you cant even get your facts straight.

[AlTech]

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

And as I said earlier, I think it is best and most logical to define things by their primary purpose, audience, and usage. Just because people sometimes sleep in their cars does not mean cars should be referred to as bedrooms.

This anology is wrong on so many different levels, principally because it doesn't represent the nature between non-dedicated mod tools and dedicated mod tools.

 

A better anology would be eating a meal at a coffee shop vs a restaurant. You can eat food at both but restaurants are designed specifically for eating food but coffee shops tend to also sell food.

 

In this respect, both can be said to be places where someone can eat.

 

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am fairly sure people would still classify cars as vehicles.

Likewise, just because a mod might use Apollo as their Reddit client does not make it a "mod tool"

It does if a not insignificant portion of mods use an app like Apollo.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

. As I said earlier, the developer didn't even mention it being used for moderating on their website

As I'm sure Ford wouldn't have mentioned on their website about the Crown Victoria being used by police when they still sold the Crown Victoria to consumers.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

and the video about the app spent literally 2% of the video's

Which video?

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

time talking about using it for moderating. The other 98% of the video was spent talking about how it can be used for non-moderator activities.

Just because the video didn't spend a lot of time talking about it doesn't mean it won't impact the mod community in a large way.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Just saying "mod tool" when you refer to Apollo is just you trying to make people believe things that aren't true by omitting important nuances and details.

I'm still not sure where I substituted Apollo for "Mod tool" but they are frankly interchangeable as moderators use it as a tool.

 

Some people might not call a heat gun a repair tool but it is frequently used in mobile phone repairs. Does this mean it is not a tool? No.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

If you think this is an important thing to talk about then you shouldn't try and device people. Just be honest and as clear in your communication as possible.

I have been honest and clear throughout. Reddit is a scummy company for making the API pricing changes, trying to blame mods for the blackouts when Reddit is the one being unreasonable, and insulting their users and moderators.

 

Many tools that moderators use will no longer be available because of these API changes. That is a fact.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Come on, you are flip-flopping between stances and arguments now.

Not at all. I am merely pointing out one of the principal arguments you have advanced was wrong.

 

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You clearly don't know what you are talking about

Oh don't I?

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

and just change your position and try and retroactively interpret your old posts in ways they were never meant to be interpreted.

I haven't changed my position in the slightest.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Here is how the conversation went.

1) Someone said Reddit is getting rid of mod tools and won't improve their first-party ones.

That isn't an unfair characterisation of the situation.

 

If I have a box full of tools including tools I purchased myself, but my employer restricts my ability to use the tools I purchased myself in the toolbox but says I can keep all the other tools, and I rely heavily on my tools then I would not be wrong in saying that my employer is getting rid of some of my not insignificant tools.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

2) I replied by saying they aren't getting rid of mod tools

That's debatable.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

and they have said they will improve their first-party ones.

Taking Reddit at their word, yes.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

3) You enter the conversation by saying a number of mods use third-party apps like Apollo.

Sure.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

4) I clarify by saying tools designed primarily for moderating are excluded, but apps that aren't primarily designed for moderating (like Apollo) will be affected

I will conceded that the limited number of mod tools that are exclusively mod tools are unlikely to be affected but we will not know with 100% certainty until each tool has been updated to be compliant with Reddit's new API requirements.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

. I once again clarify the difference between "mod tools" and other programs to make it clear that they are two different things.

Perhaps because non dedicated mod tools are so prevalent among mod use as to potentially warrant it?

 

In which case, they would be, in my opinion, mod tools.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Not just in my opinion, but also in how the APIs treat them. It is a very important distinction.

It is an attempt at drawing a line in the sand by Reddit.

 

I don't see a major distinction in it.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

5) You respond to this by saying most mods use third-party tools because the official one isn't good enough (which heavily suggests you didn't know third-party mod tools would be excluded).

I do not remember if I knew that at the time or not. Regardless, what I said did not imply that.

 

You may have read into that something, but that doesn't mean it was intended to be read into it.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

6) I point out that third-party mod tools are excluded as well.

As I have pointed out multiple times already in this thread this is not necessarily true. Reddit have discretion as to whether to allow the remaining tools that have not yet contacted Reddit to be allowed or not allowed; in theory Reddit can say no to them and they will have been excluded.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

7) You once again say Apollo is shutting down and you knew all along that third-party mod tools are excluded (even though your previous comment suggests otherwise and you have so far never mentioned the fact that third-party mod tools are excluded from the API changes).

1) They are excludes based on an assurance (which I think most people would not trust too much after their attempts at defamation and lying) and a handshake.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

8) I clarify that Apollo is not classified as a mod tool, because it is not its primary usage or target audience.

We can both argue whether a chicken burger is not a sandwich until we're both blue in the face. This doesn't mean many people use it or view it as a sandwich.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

9) Someone jumps in and says I am wrong and that even tools specifically designed for moderating will be shut down, and you like their comment, which is strange because you just said you knew that third-party mod tools (those exclusively used for moderating) would be excluded from the API changes.

 

I feel like you didn't know what was actually going on, and in order to save face you are now digging your heels in and desperately trying to find a way to define what a "mod tool" is so that your previous posts are still true even though you meant something different when you wrote them.

I could argue literally the same thing about your stance on what is classed as a mod tool or not.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Why did you like a comment you had already said you disagreed with?

I liked a post that pointed out flaws in your position on what is or is not a mod tool which sarcastically said your comment was well reasoned.

 

I didn't like a post that disagreed with what I said.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You said you knew tools specifically designed for moderating would be excluded from API changes, and then you liked a comment saying that statement was false.

I said I knew some tools specifically designed for moderating would be excluded. You were making the argument that all tools specifically designed for mods would be excluded. I disagreed with that and I still do.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I feel like you are now just going to agree with anyone who seems to try and argue against me, regardless of what they say and how their posts align with your previous posts.

I will agree with people when their post says something I agree with or that is correct, whether they happen to be quoting you or not.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

All I am asking for is consistency and clarity so that people can actually understand what is happening.

Despite what you have said, the parties involved: Reddit, the Mods, the people upset with Reddit, and the people upset with the Mods, all know and understand what is actually happening.

 

Whilst it can technically be true that most mod tools are excluded from the API changes, it is as much of a technicality as saying a tomato is a fruit. It does not change what a tomato is or its use.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Despite what you say, we have a clear example of at least one person (KnoT) completely misunderstanding a key detail in this debate

I don't mean literally everybody and I have never meant literally everybody.

 

This feels like cherry picking words I have used and trying to somehow turn it into something else entirely.

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

which is that program specifically designed for moderating will be excluded from the API changes and will continue to work like normal.

Let's agree to disagree. I'm not sure this conversation between you and I can possibly go anywhere else meaningfully or productively.

[creesch]

I see a lot of good information in this discussion, but also a lot of focus on the technical impact without consideration for the broader picture.  I've been involved on reddit for a while (over a decade), used to be a mod (actually quit last year as I was already tired and burned out on it) and am one of the developers of one of the most populair third party moderation tools on the platform.  By saying this, I probably disqualified myself in the eyes of the "power hungry mods"  crowd, but to them I only say "have you never volunteerd for anything you care for?". 

 

Anyway, ofter the past few days I have written a lot about the entire endevour. The text below captures what I believe to be the main issue with how reddit is approaching this entire thing. The original comment can be found here.

 

 

I used to be a mod on /r/history until last year. I no longer mod here. Mostly because I have been involved with reddit for over a decade and have grown tired of the direction taken over the past few years. I however do fully support the team still invested in making one of the biggest history communities on the internet work.

For people who still don't quite understand what the big deal is.

Reddit as a platform has existed since 2005, it is now 2023. In this period for the majority of the time the platform was actually open source and until now had an API that was free to use. It has a long history of being an open platform on which people can build communities, interact with those communities and manage those communities in a variety of ways.

More importantly, for the longest time reddit didn't have mobile apps on their own. More embarrassingly even for reddit, a lot of mod tools except the most basic ones haven't been created by reddit or thought up reddit. It was third party developers (hi!) who created them. In some cases like automod reddit hired the developer as an admin, who then still had to fight to make it a native tool. In other cases they did re-implement tools natively but then fairly limited.

By restricting API access and by being openly hostile to third party developers reddit is effectively closing that door of innovation.

Not everyone will be familiar with RES, but it is another third party tool used by millions of users (I am not kidding). The creator posted this excellent comment about it a few days ago

Quote

 

ETA: well this should be interesting tomorrow... https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x

During my many years on reddit, I've always felt like I had to pull punches in my criticism of the folks who run it for 2 big reasons:

1) having written RES, I didn't want to jeopardize any sort of potential relationship with them, even though I never commercialized it nor did I intend to

2) I'm old enough and mature enough to understand that businesses have business priorities, and that's just how the world works

but damn, does this section ever piss me off:

It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.

It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.

We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.

None of these things are technically false, but each of them has problems.

The most important context that I feel the blackout should be used to educate people on is that Reddit didn't always have mobile apps. The ONLY REASON it gained mobile apps is because 3rd party developers built them.

AlienBlue (which reddit eventually bought) was released in 2010 or so.

BaconReader was released in 2012.

Reddit Sync, my current favorite app I'm about to lose, was released in 2012.

Mobile traffic to reddit was practically an afterthought back then. It didn't make up a huge percentage of reddit traffic at all. The whole reason mobile has grown enough for reddit to now decide it wants to own the totality of mobile traffic is because of these third party developers!

The whole reason their moderator ecosystem exists as it does today and does as good of a job as it can (sidebar: bad mods exist, but most are just passionate internet janitors who care about their communities) without r/toolbox and to a lesser extent RES.

To read "it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps." is kind of insulting, honestly. First of all, if that was the phrase that was actually uttered, it's just obnoxious. They've had WELL OVER A DECADE of watching mobile traffic and seeing it rise to decide to come up with a way to share revenue. If it was becoming a financial burden, they've had MANY years to raise that issue and come up with a solution to it.

They could've started limiting API requests in 2015 and tested the waters for what was reasonable. They could've started in 2016, 2017... They could've started working with devs on licensing agreements or other ways to share revenue or, uh, "cover costs". But they didn't.

"It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free." -- same thing, another dig at app developers suggesting they're some sort of horrible leeches. Woe is reddit, poor giant company with massive investors. If they didn't want people profiting off of it, they shouldn't have offered a free API and assumed nobody who made a great app would want to be compensated for it. Reddit's full of software engineers. Software engineers get paid good money. They're not going to quit their job or put 40+ hours a week into an app on top of their job if it's free. Only one software engineer I know of is dumb enough to put that much work into something and never monetize it, and his name is u/honestbleeps [+12]

"We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it." - really kind of a final straw for me. The APIs have existed for ages, and really haven't changed a ton. They're JSON endpoints. There's certainly a remote possibility that I'm out of my element here, but "big tech" isn't exactly foreign to me and I have a VERY difficult time believing that the amount of API usage that an app like Apollo drums up (given it's the one they've lambasted publicly and published numbers on) costs even a tiny fraction of what they're charging to "cover costs".

imgur's API, bulk calls to Amazon's API ($1 per 1 million requests using REST), etc are DRASTICALLY cheaper. Suggesting that the fees they want to charge are anywhere even remotely close to "covering costs" rather than "marking up costs by multiple orders of magnitude" is highly implausible.

All of this just sucks. The dishonesty about it, their lack of progress in the past 13 years of existence of 3rd party apps existing toward a better solution than "go nuclear and shut them all down", etc. It's just awful.

Are there some wild machinations in the background that make reddit's APIs cost far more to serve? I mean it's possible but my gut instinct as an engineer is it'd speak to poor efficiency somewhere, or not utilizing caching and other tools as well. It seems fairly unlikely. It seems more like they just kept letting things slide for far too long, and now that they're going to go public, they've been caught with their pants down over scrutiny on profitability.

I'm speculating, of course. I don't work for reddit, I don't get inside info from anyone who does. But everything I know about building software, including at scale, suggests that this is dishonest. I wish they'd just say "yeah, it's a business decision, we're killing 3rd party apps" - the (apparent) dishonesty just makes it far worse.

damnit, I'm really mad over this, and I'm going to be even more mad when I lose access to my favorite app (reddit sync is my personal go to, but there's a lot of great ones). This whole process has been absolutely shameful.

 

 

Also yes, part of this was posted as reply to a different comment. But I figured that it can stand on its own as a top level comment.

[Polderviking]

He needs to give users the ability to vote the CEO out.

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, Polderviking said:

He needs to give users the ability to vote the CEO out.

Buy enough shares in Reddit when they go public and maybe you can.

[AlTech]

Just now, Spotty said:

Buy enough shares in Reddit when they go public and maybe you can.

Something tells me this Reddit CEO is jumping ship as soon as it IPOs.

[Polderviking]

1 minute ago, Spotty said:

Buy enough shares in Reddit when they go public and maybe you can.

That feels a little bit too much like boarding the Hindenburg.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, KnoT said:

"Excluded" everything that uses API cant exceed the Free 100 API calls/min that INCLUDES 3rd part mod tools and APS I dont get why is it so hard to understand for you?

I would appreciate if you would not call ppl liars when you cant even get your facts straight.

No, third party mod tools are excluded even if they exceed 100 calls per minute. 

Read the entire post you linked and read my response. It will explain the situation.

 

They confirm that this is the case for bots, and I don't see anything that indicates the same won't be true for other "mod tools". They are actively encouraging people to report to them if they missed whitelisting the mod tools they have already whitelisted so that they can grant unrestricted access to those tools.

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

No, third party mod tools are excluded even if they exceed 100 calls per minute.

At Reddit's discretion.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

At Reddit's discretion.

Of course. That is always the case with APIs. That is neither a good or bad thing. Just because Reddit could change access does not mean they will. In fact, it would be basically impossible for the API access to not be at Reddit's discretion. 

 

So I don't really understand what your point is with this comment.