Reddit pulls a Twitter. Third Party Apps will cost some developers $20 MILLION/yr.

[Spotty]

11 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

 If Reddit is willing to throw away the people this easily then maybe we can move on to a new platform that is better than Reddit.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the next Reddit-like platform wouldn't do the exact same thing if they were in Reddit's position.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of people mad at Reddit now who once thought "Reddit is better than those other social media sites, they would never do something like that"

[Drazil100]

Just now, Spotty said:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the next Reddit-like platform wouldn't do the exact same thing if they were in Reddit's position.

Of course, but that's just part of the life cycle of a platform. Every platform will eventually turn to shit. Even the best owner who understands the needs of their user will eventually have to retire and put someone else in charge. 

At least if Reddit dies we will get to enjoy whatever replaces it for a little bit.

[Arika]

50 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Reading some of the comments it seems Spez supposedly said they wouldn't reopen subreddits that closed which is why them doing it is even more controversial.

i think it's very careful wording on his part, which i feel makes him comments even more scummy, """reddit""" isn't reopening the subs, they are just allowing other people to take it over to reopen them. unless they are reddit employees they can hide behind the fact that "well "we" didn't reopen them"

[Taf the Ghost]

 

1 hour ago, Spotty said:

-100 karma on that post haha. I think that's only going to get worse. Reading some of the comments it seems Spez supposedly said they wouldn't reopen subreddits that closed which is why them doing it is even more controversial.

 

It's incredibly tone deaf of Reddit to ignore the reason why those moderators shut down those subreddits in the first place. Ultimately I think Reddit should have listened to the overwhelming feedback from the community and announced some changes, and then only replace moderators in large communities that still refused to reopen/were inactive/deleted their accounts. But, the show must go on. At the end of the day I don't disagree with them replacing mod teams who shut down large communities indefinitely. 

 

Now before everybody hates me for saying that, I just want to explain where I'm coming from. As a moderator of this forum (who could close the forum) I fully expect the LTT forum to continue on without me. If it ever came to that then kick me off the mod team and keep on truckin. I'm under no delusions that I'm pivotal to the community's existence. The forum was fine before I joined and it'll be fine after I'm gone. Everything will just carry on normally with new mods. Moderators don't make subreddits or forums - the community does.

 

Though, I will laugh if all the new mods Reddit appoints to these communities also take them offline. 

In hierarchy politics, you can never lose the Middle Management that actually implement policy from the top. The catastrophic mistake Reddit is making is that most of the Moderation is actually done by 3rd Party Bots used by the moderators of large subreddits. They've insured a revolt of the people that actually make their site functional and never improved the systems to actually handle the load.  It'd be no different than if Bethesda decided only vanilla Skyrim was playable.

 

There's actually an interesting question about what Reddit has been doing, development wise, for the last 5+ years.

 

46 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the next Reddit-like platform wouldn't do the exact same thing if they were in Reddit's position.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of people mad at Reddit now who once thought "Reddit is better than those other social media sites, they would never do something like that"

 

The problem with making new systems is always the same: the founders don't understand the nature of all of the backroom dealings that are going on.  It's not just that Reddit exists as a product of a large company. It has de facto and de jure support by major countries to keep existing. All social media gets flooded with bots, scams, intelligence agencies and real predators.  Thus, you spend all of your time on systems to stay in the good-ish graces of authorities. Which means giving them backside access to all sorts of things, often times outside real legal authority for them to ask for it.  Because, if you don't play ball, they'll either ruin your platform or ruin you.  This is before making the website/systems work as an actual product.  If you play ball and build something useful, you'll have money beyond the dreams of avarice, but you'll sell your soul along the way. If you don't, you'll get ousted or worse.

 

The funny part is this isn't new. This is just a replay of Extraction Economics on the Internet.  Whether it's a website or an oil field, the same things happen. It's just the Users are the object to be exploited.

[jagdtigger]

On 6/15/2023 at 12:06 PM, Spotty said:

It's more like removing the protester who glued themselves to the road so that traffic can still flow.

No, not really. Those moderators arent some freeloader who havent got anything better to do and he/she does moderation on top of their regular work for free. Now reddit wants to cripple their tools that makes it easier for them, id say its more like an employer banning power tools and their workers going on strike because of that.....

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

On something not paid enough attention to on this: the API pricing also means most of the Mod Tools used to manage the large subs are going offline.  Creating a bunch of Lame Duck Mods without tools is a great way to watch it all burn down. Reddit has finally Digg'd itself, realistically.

Mod tools are excluded from the API changes. 

I am not sure where the idea that mod tools are going to die comes from, but it's misinformation. 

[Drazil100]

4 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The problem with making new systems is always the same: the founders don't understand the nature of all of the backroom dealings that are going on.  It's not just that Reddit exists as a product of a large company. It has de facto and de jure support by major countries to keep existing. All social media gets flooded with bots, scams, intelligence agencies and real predators.  Thus, you spend all of your time on systems to stay in the good-ish graces of authorities. Which means giving them backside access to all sorts of things, often times outside real legal authority for them to ask for it.  Because, if you don't play ball, they'll either ruin your platform or ruin you.  This is before making the website/systems work as an actual product.  If you play ball and build something useful, you'll have money beyond the dreams of avarice, but you'll sell your soul along the way. If you don't, you'll get ousted or worse.

Yeah but privacy issues aside. Reddit doesn't respect us and aren't going to ever respect us. Even if by some miracle we manage to get them to backtrack now, there is 0 chance that they will start appreciating their community or it's moderators. 

I have come to accept that governments are going to interfere with and invade the privacy of any platform that has even a little bit of mainstream appeal. As hard as we try you are right that governments across the world will either ruin the site or it's owners. Even so, I would take a privacy invading site that appreciates it's community and the volunteer moderators that keep it running far before I take whatever Reddit has become. No question.

[AlTech]

Summary

 

Reddit has threatened to enact an end to subreddit blackouts by allowing users to vote out moderators and encouraging users to vote out Moderators that are continuing subreddit blackouts.

 

Reddit's CEO has refused to backpedal on the controversial changes and insists that most apps won't need to pay Reddit anything for API access.

 

Reddit's CEO has not stated whether Reddit will go through with the threat or not and what timeframe it would be implemented in if they do go through with it.

 

Quotes

Quote

Reddit’s CEO wants to bring an end to the Reddit Blackout, but not by agreeing to reverse the company’s upcoming API changes. Instead, he has suggested that users should be able to vote out the moderators leading the protest that’s keeping large chunks of Reddit in the dark.

Quote

In an interview with The Verge, however, Steve Huffman – Reddit’s CEO – has explained that the company is not planning to back down. Citing stats from a Reddit blog post about the protest, he said that 80% of Reddit’s top 5,000 subreddits by daily active users are still open and that Reddit Blackout has had no impact on its planned changes.

Huffman added that API access will remain free for non-commercial researchers and academics, as well as for moderator tools, bots, and third-party apps, provided they’re not monetized and they aren’t exceeding Reddit’s data-usage threshold.

 

 

My thoughts

 The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

You will own nothing and you will be happy.

 

This is the Reddit that people who still use Reddit, in spite of these changes, deserve.

 

I almost can't believe Reddit's CEO is actually still going through with his terrible plans and has come up with an even more terrible plan to make the other terrible plans work.

 

I know Reddit's CEO won't read this but I have a message for him anyways: It's not too late to save Reddit from imploding. Just undo the changes and resign. Reddit can go back to being awesome and losing money. You just need to find a different way of making money that doesn't involve slapping your users or moderators in the face.

 

Sources

 https://www.techradar.com/news/reddit-has-a-terrible-plan-to-end-blackout-ask-you-to-vote-out-protesting-mods

[Spotty]

Quote

Instead, he has suggested that users should be able to vote out the moderators leading the protest that’s keeping large chunks of Reddit in the dark.

I'm interested in reading/viewing the full interview. Anyone have a link to the original interview or where the CEO said this? It wasn't in the interview he did with The Verge. Apparently it's from this NBC article but that doesn't have the full interview either.

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

You will own nothing and you will be happy.

 

yeah, no shit you don't own reddit,  just don't use it problem solved? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Techstorm970]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

This is the Reddit that people who still use Reddit deserve.

FTFY

[dcgreen2k]

18 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah, no shit you don't own reddit,  just don't use it problem solved? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Literally 1984

[Poinkachu]

Thirty-Six Stratagems, Chapter 1 : Kill with a borrowed knife

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Stratagems

 

Use the userbase to fight the revolting Mods. And end up as a "Hero" in the eyes of the said userbase.

[LAwLz]

5 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

Second, many communities had public polls to decide whether or not to join the protest, and the results were pretty overwhelming in support of it. These are not rogue moderators attempting to abuse power, but moderators acting on behalf of a community who is genuinely upset at Reddit's action.

I am not so sure about those polls.

I have looked through quite a few of them, and the comments seem to be in majority for ending the blackouts, while the polls shows the options being somewhat equal (even when the mods try and sway opinions by labeling the options like "yes, I understand what I am doing" and "no, I want tyrant to reign supreme" or something along those lines).

I've heard that some Discord groups are looking up polls and then mass voting for the "stay blacked out" options, which would explain the disparity between the comments and the voting results, but I am not on Discord that much so I don't know if this is true.

 

It's not that difficult to find polls where the disparity between the comment section (seemingly the majority being for ending the blackout) and the poll results (the majority being for keeping the blackouts going).

 

 

Also, I've found that a lot of people seem to not understand what they are even protesting. The amount of people who have talked about mods needing their mod tools, or how Reddit doesn't care about disabled people is astonishing. Especially since Reddit have publicly said several times that neither mod tools, bots, nor accessibility programs will be affected by the API changes. Yet it seems to be some of the biggest arguments people have against the API changes, and they are completely false.

 

 

Polls are not fair if people don't understand what they are voting for, and external powers are manipulating the results. I think there is a strong case to be made that both of those things seem to be happening here.

[Zodiark1593]

4 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

 

 

I almost can't believe Reddit's CEO is actually still going through with his terrible plans and has come up with an even more terrible plan to make the other terrible plans work.

 

 

If Reddit is on the cusp of going under, I find it fully believable that they’d go this route. 

[Eaglerino]

some billionaire needs to buy reddit and unshackle the site

i'm not talking about the protests

[dogwitch]

4k of subs still dark...

mis info. power ego mods etc.

hell i got banned from the modcord sub..

after saying to another mods reply.

of f this and am going to let both subs am the only mods to burn...

 

the tone def of some of this mods....

 

btw i moderate some subs on reddit and a nda world lvl thing that billion people use a year..

[Haaselh0ff]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am not so sure about those polls.

I have looked through quite a few of them, and the comments seem to be in majority for ending the blackouts, while the polls shows the options being somewhat equal (even when the mods try and sway opinions by labeling the options like "yes, I understand what I am doing" and "no, I want tyrant to reign supreme" or something along those lines).

I've heard that some Discord groups are looking up polls and then mass voting for the "stay blacked out" options, which would explain the disparity between the comments and the voting results, but I am not on Discord that much so I don't know if this is true.

 

It's not that difficult to find polls where the disparity between the comment section (seemingly the majority being for ending the blackout) and the poll results (the majority being for keeping the blackouts going).

 

 

Also, I've found that a lot of people seem to not understand what they are even protesting. The amount of people who have talked about mods needing their mod tools, or how Reddit doesn't care about disabled people is astonishing. Especially since Reddit have publicly said several times that neither mod tools, bots, nor accessibility programs will be affected by the API changes. Yet it seems to be some of the biggest arguments people have against the API changes, and they are completely false.

 

 

Polls are not fair if people don't understand what they are voting for, and external powers are manipulating the results. I think there is a strong case to be made that both of those things seem to be happening here.

Yeah a butt ton of these polls have been hijacked by people who probably aren't even subscribed to these communities in an attempt to "hit reddit where it hurts". All it takes is to look at the comments where you see almost every post AGAINST the blackout continuing because it clearly did nothing and reddit does not care. They knew since the beginning that they could, at anytime, just replace the mods of a sub with their own so the second they think it's gone on long enough they just do that a reopen the place.

 

Just look at r/dota2, they had a poll and it was split near 50/50 and yet the comments are all talking about how awful the blackout is for esport communities that rely on their subs to relay information regarding leagues, highlights, etc. It's obvious that disingenuous groups are attempting to sway these polls.

[Erebuxy]

Despite the current situation, this is completely positive for the community. I encountered several bad mods, and it required enormous efforts and the entire subs going crazy to replace the mods. The mod system is completely totalitarian. 

And as for the blackout, a lot of the subs simply informed the subscribers there would be blackout, whether the majority of the subscribers liked it or not.

[TetraSky]

Instead of actually improving the moderator tools, they prefer making a way to get rid of moderators.

Why fix the problem, when you can get rid of the ones who complain.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Instead of actually improving the moderator tools, they prefer making a way to get rid of moderators.

Why fix the problem, when you can get rid of the ones who complain.

1) Mod tools are excluded from the API changes. The mod tools that exists today will continue to work even after the API changes go live. 

 

2) They are making improvements to the moderation tools. They haven't commented on a timeline yet, but they have announced some of the improvements they are working on. 

[AlTech]

54 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

1) Mod tools are excluded from the API changes. The mod tools that exists today will continue to work even after the API changes go live. 

A not insignificant number of mods were using 3rd party apps like Apollo and other apps because the Reddit app didn't have suitable moderation tools.

 

They now have to make do with inferior tools whilst Reddit has equated their moderators to effectively unpaid internet janitors. The Reddit mods don't appreciate being called such things or having their ability to manage moderation in apps taken away.

54 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

2) They are making improvements to the moderation tools. They haven't commented on a timeline yet, but they have announced some of the improvements they are working on. 

That's not good enough for any corporation, especially one in the Technology Industry. Reddit should have implemented the improved moderation tools and announced a planned change to the API whilst giving developers a transition period so that they can update their applications without developing high blood pressure or getting a surprise bill for $20 million dollars.

 

If you want people to rely on your product or platform, major changes by surprise is hardly a way to keep your fans around. Giving people time to migrate to what you want them to use instead of something they're currently using is basically a necessity in order to avoid confusion, chaos, disdain, and upset from your users.

 

Reddit is broke so they need to IPO ASAP and they think the API changes will help get them closer to being IPO ready. That's not the Moderators' problem or the 3rd party app developers' problem. Reddit is the one that handled the situation badly, not the developers or the moderators. Reddit chose to run as an unprofitable business for years and now that decisison is causing them pain. Sucks to be Reddit but they shouldn't put this on other people.

[starsmine]

57 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

1) Mod tools are excluded from the API changes. The mod tools that exists today will continue to work even after the API changes go live. 

2) They are making improvements to the moderation tools. They haven't commented on a timeline yet, but they have announced some of the improvements they are working on. 

1)
Not true. some may be, but there are many that are not.

2)
that is the most unacceptable thing Reddit can do. 
If they want to change the necessity of mod tools, they need to do that FIRST, before breaking mod tools so the transition can happen as painlessly as possible. 

If they want to create a system to move those mod tools over to a model where they don't have to pay for API access, they needed to have built that system first. 

[Drazil100]

Honestly, reading this thread, I have to give Reddit more credit than I thought I would. Yes they are spitting in the face of the protesters, but they are actually succeeding in turning us against each other. The BEST way to not fix a problem is to get the people who want the fix fighting someone else. By vilifying the protesters as essentially hijackers who don't want to be moderators anymore, they are gonna convince the people who don't care about the protest and just want Reddit back on line to get angry at the moderators, when in reality moderators are fighting to make the experience better for everyone and not just themselves.

At this point I think we need to all just jump ship. Let Reddit fade into obscurity as the owners continue to prove they don't care about their users. All I hope is that whatever replaces Reddit isn't just Discord. I love Discord, but it does not even come close to serving the role of being a publicly accessible repository of information. It's great for building communities, but you have to be in it to access the information and information on discord can't be searched for on Google.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, Eaglerino said:

some billionaire needs to buy reddit and unshackle the site

i'm not talking about the protests

Gee, that worked soo... soooooo... well for twitter. /s

 

Just let the reddit ship burn. It's not critical internet infrastructure, like twitter managed to make itself into, before it started knocking out the foundation to build a parking lot.