Reddit pulls a Twitter. Third Party Apps will cost some developers $20 MILLION/yr.

[Strobel]

1 hour ago, Fasterthannothing said:

People are too but hurt over this entire API thing. If Reddit can't make enough to stay afloat then its a moot point if they should hand out API access for free since there would literally be no reddit. ITS A BUSINESS not a charity organization.

 

[Alcarin]

 

On 6/18/2023 at 2:34 AM, AluminiumTech said:

(broken down below)

Quote

I think you misunderstand the nature of the API access of 3rd party apps on a platform like Reddit.

I don't misunderstand it at all. I am familiar with how API access works. I am developing something myself that accesses the API of several sites. I've had to educate myself over the last couple years about this and many other topics related to what I'm working on. And no, I don't plan on commercializing it.

Quote

The value of Reddit increases because of how 3rd party apps make it easier to add value to Reddit's platform.

I think you overestimate how many users (not mods) actually use the third party apps. The users contribute the most value to the platform, while the mods are there to enforce their subreddit rules, remove spam, and keep things in line (very doubtful on the last one). Anyway, Reddit has already stated that mod tools and moderation bots will be exempt from the API charges in the first place.

Quote

The whole reason Reddit is charging them money is 1) Ideological reasons: They seem to think App developers owe them something 2) Reddit is broke and can't get more investor money.

These apps suppress ad revenue to Reddit in favor of their own ads, and take advantage of the gravy train of free API access. Now I don't like Reddit as a corporation and I think their CEO is a duplicitous moron, but I really cannot blame them for doing what a business should be doing — increasing revenue, especially in the face of an upcoming IPO. As for whether or not Reddit feels justified in thinking app developers owe them something, I have no opinion on that. They are entitled to their opinions, same with the app devs.

Quote

They only found out the new pricing a few weeks ago. They had no idea what it would be prior to Reddit announcing it publicly.

Fair, but they should have had some kind of contingency planned out. These app devs were foolish and naive to believe Reddit had their best interest in mind. Reddit is a corporation, not their friend.

Quote

A few weeks is not enough time to update an application to reduce the number of API calls significantly.

Reddit's not interested in a compromise. They see 3rd party apps like Apollo as leaches and wanted them to pay.

Reddit has already compromised by allowing mod tools and accessibility-focused apps to be exempt from the API charges.

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, Alcarin said:

Reddit has already compromised by allowing mod tools and accessibility-focused apps to be exempt from the API charges.

That's hardly a compromise. It's the only thing that has kept Reddit from falling apart completely at the seams like a cheap suit.

 

If Reddit didn't exclude mod tools and accessibility focused apps then more damage would have been done to Reddit and its reputation and the protests would have been more successful than the limited success they saw.

[AlTech]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

"Reddit is killing third-party Reddit clients" should be enough to get people behind a cause because the news that third-party Reddit clients are going to die is bad enough news on their own.

And yet it has proven not to be. One email from Reddit HQ to all mods saying the Top Mod position of each subreddit is open to anybody removing mods who are protestings and all the power hungry mods on Reddit have given up. This is an abject failure and a lesson of how not to organize a protest in any space.

 

The apathy is quite palpable but so too is the boot licking for Reddit.

[Yeroh]

I'm with the folks who say that this move was ultimately inevitable, but reddit's pricing does make it seem as though they don't want third-party apps to exist at all, which makes the whole ordeal feel very disingenuous.

[r00tb33r]

The catch is that only current users can vote out, not the ones blocked by the private status.  Meaning the users who are in are not affected by this, and thus have no motivation to vote out the moderators who are participating in the strike.  Toothless measure IMO, not that I have any stake in it.

[wanderingfool2]

4 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Where did you get $2.50 from?

As per Apollo dev's statement on Reddit....like I clearly stated earlier.

https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/

He attributes the cost per use to be $2.50 with the API pricing, which is factually wrong if he has 1.3 million users using Apollo.  He uses the $2.50 as a justification to claim Reddit was doing 20x (which also is ignorant in how he calculated things).

 

5 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Assuming the app has 800,000 users he would need to charge each user $2.73 just to pay Reddit's fees and Apple's payment processing fees.

Did you not read what I wrote earlier.  I said for his calculations to make sense he would HAVE TO ASSUME 800,000 users.

 

He stated to TechCrunch his actual monthly user count as 1.3 million to 1.5 million, with DAU of 900,000.

 

5 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Why? Reddit have said they won't back down. There's nothing to gain for either of them by lying.

You have never heard of scorched earth tactics.  They have a lot to lose and it was their attempt to get Reddit to look like the only bad-guy in the situation.

 

5 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Why? Businesses can't operate on surprise. They need advance warnings of things in order to prepare.

When said "things" are currently free, no they don't.  Anyone who builds their platform around a free service doesn't really have too much of a right to complain if it's no longer free.

 

5 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

No

Yes, those 3 statements can't exist together

He stated, 1.3 million users, reddit api cost 2.50 per user and reddit API costs would be 2 mill a month.

 

It's literally first grade math, 1.3 mill * 2.5 = $3.25  mill not $2 mill.

[KaitouX]

Some moderators started to not delete posts unrelated to the subs, unless they break site wide rules, others changed the rules to be more broad or specific. r/Steam is full of steam engines/machines posts now, r/pics is about John Oliver pictures, r/interestingasfuck is a porn sub, etc. lol

[Dumblydorr]

5 hours ago, KaitouX said:

Some moderators started to not delete posts unrelated to the subs, unless they break site wide rules, others changed the rules to be more broad or specific. r/Steam is full of steam engines/machines posts now, r/pics is about John Oliver pictures, r/interestingasfuck is a porn sub, etc. lol

I kinda hate this one. Its dumb because people are still on reddit, reddit still makes money.

 

r/Melbourne is now all about Melbourne, Florida. I hate it because now my local city's information source is gone, when there are things happening around me, I won't find out anymore, considering local papers don't exist anymore (or are made for old boomers).

 

The community there at least is absolutely NOT agreeing with the mods, the mods said it was a vote... but it was vote over discord with like... 30 people (in a sub of 600,000+ people) which is dumb, because most redditors are going to discord. 

 

In fact, this whole issue is what pushed me to LTT forums atm, giving them a go, because I miss the forum days.

[williamcll]

Instead of posting on reddit how about posting here instead?

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Dumblydorr said:

I hate it because now my local city's information source is gone,

This why they do it, if its not usable anymore ppl will leave the site on their own.... 

[Stahlmann]

7 hours ago, KaitouX said:

Some moderators started to not delete posts unrelated to the subs, unless they break site wide rules, others changed the rules to be more broad or specific. r/Steam is full of steam engines/machines posts now, r/pics is about John Oliver pictures, r/interestingasfuck is a porn sub, etc. lol

So now they're leaving the subs unmoderated in hope that reddit will close them on their own? Basically they reopened because they feared they lose their moderator status and now strike in a different way that ultimately results in the same thing happening? I really don't get what they're playing at here.

[LAwLz]

4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

This why they do it, if its not usable anymore ppl will leave the site on their own.... 

So the users that are displeased are trying to burn the site to the ground, thus ruining it for everyone. 

 

I think it is important to remember that roughly 90% of reddit users used their browser or the official app to access the website. 90% of users would therefore not have been affected by these changes.

Some of those 90% are probably protesting on behalf of the 10%, but I question how many of those actually understand what is going on. I feel like some people in the 10% are trying to fool people into thinking part of the 90% would also be affected, which they wouldn't. That's why the misinformation about disabled people being discriminated against appeared, why people started talking about mod tools and bots disappearing, even though those things were not affected by the API changes. 

 

 

At this point people seems to have been so whipped into a frenzy that I don't even think a complete 180 from Reddit would change anything, people would probably still be pissed and try burning the site down. People seem to just want destruction now, and I feel like sensible conversations are no longer possible. Too many people just shouting catch phrases like "fuck spez" and being extremely hostile towards "the enemy" (aka, anyone who doesn't side with them that Reddit needs to be destroyed for their crimes against humanity). 

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

So the users that are displeased are trying to burn the site to the ground, thus ruining it for everyone. 

 

I think it is important to remember that roughly 90% of reddit users used their browser or the official app to access the website. 90% of users would therefore not have been affected by these changes.

Some of those 90% are probably protesting on behalf of the 10%, but I question how many of those actually understand what is going on. I feel like some people in the 10% are trying to fool people into thinking part of the 90% would also be affected, which they wouldn't. That's why the misinformation about disabled people being discriminated against appeared, why people started talking about mod tools and bots disappearing, even though those things were not affected by the API changes. 

 

 

At this point people seems to have been so whipped into a frenzy that I don't even think a complete 180 from Reddit would change anything, people would probably still be pissed and try burning the site down. People seem to just want destruction now, and I feel like sensible conversations are no longer possible. Too many people just shouting catch phrases like "fuck spez" and being extremely hostile towards "the enemy" (aka, anyone who doesn't side with them that Reddit needs to be destroyed for their crimes against humanity). 

This is a bad take.
"it does not effect me, so therefore I have no solidarity" is not in any way a valid way to view issues that affect groups. 10% is a large group. 10% means you know someone, actually many people who use those tools. 
 

I am baffled by what you are saying is misinformation. 
3rd party apps that better facilitate specific disabilities than the official app exist.
3rd part tools and bots that better facilitate moderation exist that have zero timetables to be replaced or have their API costs nulled other than a vague "we will get around to it" by the c-suite. 

why you keep saying those two situations are not true or valid blows my mind. 
yes SOME 3rd party mod tools are not effected by the API change. that does not mean many or most. 
To say it does not effect me, when It effects the moderators and content creators, even as a casual lurker is also a bad take. 
 

[Brooksie359]

9 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

As per Apollo dev's statement on Reddit....like I clearly stated earlier.

https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/

He attributes the cost per use to be $2.50 with the API pricing, which is factually wrong if he has 1.3 million users using Apollo.  He uses the $2.50 as a justification to claim Reddit was doing 20x (which also is ignorant in how he calculated things).

 

Did you not read what I wrote earlier.  I said for his calculations to make sense he would HAVE TO ASSUME 800,000 users.

 

He stated to TechCrunch his actual monthly user count as 1.3 million to 1.5 million, with DAU of 900,000.

 

You have never heard of scorched earth tactics.  They have a lot to lose and it was their attempt to get Reddit to look like the only bad-guy in the situation.

 

When said "things" are currently free, no they don't.  Anyone who builds their platform around a free service doesn't really have too much of a right to complain if it's no longer free.

 

Yes, those 3 statements can't exist together

He stated, 1.3 million users, reddit api cost 2.50 per user and reddit API costs would be 2 mill a month.

 

It's literally first grade math, 1.3 mill * 2.5 = $3.25  mill not $2 mill.

While I agree that reddit is allowed to start charging for something that cost them money that used to be free I also think they should give a heads up and at least try and negotiate with the people who use their api.. it's a crappy thing go do when you originally tell people something is free and then suddenly start charging with little to no notice. I mean you can give so little time like they did but that mean everyone had a right to be mad and upset at you for it. 

[Dumblydorr]

1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

So now they're leaving the subs unmoderated in hope that reddit will close them on their own? Basically they reopened because they feared they lose their moderator status and now strike in a different way that ultimately results in the same thing happening? I really don't get what they're playing at here.

exactly this. Mods opened by "force" or be replaced, only to then change the sub. Why? So they still have "power"? Like, if its really about mod tools then whatever, I'll do it without these magic tools, because the ones I use aren't going anywhere.

 

I just want to talk about Melbourne again. Thankfully most of my other subs im on are ok, like r/Citiesskylines, I need that one.

[Isuck Assimov]

Gotta kill the site. At least until the current CEO has to step down and the site gets sold for like 10% of it's former worth.

This is how you keep a website usable.

Kill it with fire and *looks at smudged writing on hand* sexy pictures of John Oliver ???

[darknessblade]

If ANY moderator can go to the chopping block, even from semi-active subreddits, there are a few HATED powermods that will definitely loose their status

[Doobeedoo]

Imagine using Reddit uf.

[Taf the Ghost]

It would have cost Reddit less to just buy up the really popular Apps, integrate them in the current App and then change API pricing to meet their actual needs.

 

You know, like a properly run business. But, as we found out after the Twitter sale, almost none of these places are run competently. They're barely held together disasters.

[wanderingfool2]

7 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

While I agree that reddit is allowed to start charging for something that cost them money that used to be free I also think they should give a heads up and at least try and negotiate with the people who use their api.. it's a crappy thing go do when you originally tell people something is free and then suddenly start charging with little to no notice. I mean you can give so little time like they did but that mean everyone had a right to be mad and upset at you for it. 

At the same time though, that is also what happens when you bank on a company that is speculated to not make profits.

 

In the case of RIF as well, they made it clear they wouldn't be doing that pricing...so even if they gave lots of time, I think it would overall be very similar to what has happened.  App developers screaming that it's unfair and prices them out of the market with Reddit catching all the flack for it.

 

It also doesn't help the community to essentially twist the facts that Reddit has stated.

[suicidalfranco]

Excellent

More, more, give me more fire

[Brooksie359]

46 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

At the same time though, that is also what happens when you bank on a company that is speculated to not make profits.

 

In the case of RIF as well, they made it clear they wouldn't be doing that pricing...so even if they gave lots of time, I think it would overall be very similar to what has happened.  App developers screaming that it's unfair and prices them out of the market with Reddit catching all the flack for it.

 

It also doesn't help the community to essentially twist the facts that Reddit has stated.

The reason they wanted time was to modify their app to make less api calls. As for pricing I am a bit skeptical that the price reddit is asking is reasonable. It could be that the cost is justified or it could be that it is way higher than it needs to be but it does seem high to me. 

[AlTech]

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 I said for his calculations to make sense he would HAVE TO ASSUME 800,000 users.

He did make that assumption.

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

He stated to TechCrunch his actual monthly user count as 1.3 million to 1.5 million, with DAU of 900,000.

DAU of 900,000 isn't that far off of 800,000.

 

The calculations don't change radically if all 900,000 people who use his app were willing to give the money required to break even. He'd need to charge each and every user $2.43 to break even.

 

Will every user be willing to pay that? No.

 

Assuming 20% of his DAU are willing to pay for the app, that's $12.13 per month to break even when accounting for Apple's fees.

 

If he wants a small slither of profit then perhaps he could do $14.99 per month.

 

Do you think the developer should have just asked as many of his users who could afford it to pay $14.99 per month for his app and hope 180K people subscribe for that price?

 

Frankly expecting 180K people to pay $12.13 or $14.99 per month for any app is kind of a big ask when it does not make them any money.

 

I suppose the dev could limit the free version of the app to 5 to 10 API requests per day. This could help stem the losses from the free tier of his application.

 

Would you personally be willing to pay $12.13 or $14.99 if you had an iPhone and used his app?

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

When said "things" are currently free, no they don't.  Anyone who builds their platform around a free service doesn't really have too much of a right to complain if it's no longer free.

Not when people come to rely on it. If you make a free service and let people come to rely on it for a long time and suddenly realise you need to charge money for it, then you announce the change will happen ASAP but you implement a transition period to help the community adjust to the new price.

 

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

He stated, 1.3 million users, reddit api cost 2.50 per user and reddit API costs would be 2 mill a month.

 

It's literally first grade math

First of there's no need to be disrespectful of others. Second of all, it's not when you've got the size of numbers involved as in this case.

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

1.3 mill * 2.5 = $3.25  mill not $2 mill.

DAU is what matters. Not total users.

 

$2 Million is a rounded up figure of how much he would have paid for API calls if the new Reddit API pricing was in effect in May 2023.

 

Assuming his app uses a similar amount of API calls every month, the price he would pay would end up being close to $20 million per year. In other words, he did not lie.

[AlTech]

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

It would have cost Reddit less to just buy up the really popular Apps, integrate them in the current App and then change API pricing to meet their actual needs.

 

You know, like a properly run business. But, as we found out after the Twitter sale, almost none of these places are run competently. They're barely held together disasters.

Or gradually increase the price each month to allow devs to gradually decrease their API usage for their apps until they can afford the new Reddit Pricing.