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Reddit pulls a Twitter. Third Party Apps will cost some developers $20 MILLION/yr.

rcmaehl

Summary

Reddit has pulled a twitter in API access costs: 50 million API calls will cost $12,000. Nearly 100x what conventional sites charge.

 

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Following Twitter’s move to shut down third-party apps earlier this year, it looks like Reddit may be the next platform to kill off... third-party clients. Apollo developer Christian Selig has shared details about [the] cost to use the updated API. After reassuring... the new API pricing would be “reasonable and based in reality” and... Reddit “would not operate like Twitter,” it sounds like the company is doing a 180 or has very different ideas about what “reasonable” and “based in reality” mean. The new cost would be $12,000 per 50 million requests. Apollo does about 7 billion requests per month,... ~$1.7 million per month or $20 million per year. Twitter’s pricing was publicly ridiculed for its obscene price of $42,000 for 50 million tweets. Reddit’s is still $12,000. For reference, I pay Imgur, a site similar to Reddit in userbase and media, $166 for the same 50 million API calls. Reddit is set to charge third-party devs about 20x higher cost for API calls than what native users like cost Reddit. Reddit has said it is not flexible on the API pricing.

 

My thoughts

RIP Rif, Apollo, and many other apps. I honestly believe that this is going to backfire on reddit and cause a mass decrease of its traffic. Heck, I've learned a ton of reddit alternatives just today after hearing this news and will be checking out some myself. Hopefully a few of them will be a fit for me.

 

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I like the concept of Reddit, but the people running it just have no clue what their users actually want, and I'm not at all surprised by this move. I personally prefer to use the official Reddit mobile app, but I refuse to update to newer versions of the app. I'm using an old version that actually works properly. 

 

I'll be interested to see how much this actually affects Reddit in the long run.

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What's Apollo's revenue though?  $20M sounds like a lot but not if they're making $100M by basically rehashing reddit's interface.

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3 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

What's Apollo's revenue though?  $20M sounds like a lot but not if they're making $100M by basically rehashing reddit's interface.

The developer outlined that they make ~7B requests a month with each user making approximately 10.6k reqs/month. Assuming 660k active users (7B ÷ 10.6k) and that they all paid $1.50/month sub he would still be short like 700k/month. In reality, he probably has less than a 10th of those active users as subscribers. I wouldn't be surprised if the developer, either had to raise the sub to like $15/month or eliminate the free tier and still raise prices a fair bit.

 

 

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2 hours ago, trag1c said:

The developer outlined that they make ~7B requests a month with each user making approximately 10.6k reqs/month. Assuming 660k active users (7B ÷ 10.6k) and that they all paid $1.50/month sub he would still be short like 700k/month. In reality, he probably has less than a 10th of those active users as subscribers. I wouldn't be surprised if the developer, either had to raise the sub to like $15/month or eliminate the free tier and still raise prices a fair bit.

 

 

I checked. The dev does offer a mix of subs and one time purchases.

 

In addition to the free tier (which seems fairly generous for a free tier) there's also a one off payment option with a minimum of $5 but Max what want.

 

Then there's the sub for $1.49 per month or $12.99 per year. And remember Apple takes 30% of that sub revenue cos IOS.

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2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

What's Apollo's revenue though?  $20M sounds like a lot but not if they're making $100M by basically rehashing reddit's interface.

Or another question, how much is Reddit actually making?  There's a bunch of revenue estimates for Reddit, but without knowing the operation costs one can never know.

 

Another thing that would need to be factored into the thought is that Apollo doesn't offer ads...so in the literal sense every Apollo users ads additional cost to Reddit without any potential revenue towards Reddit.

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I'm honestly not sure what Reddit's thinking. If they want to bankrupt alternative Reddit mobile clients then they're doing a good job.

 

$12K for 50M API requests is insane.

 

At most this should be $120.

 

50M API requests is nothing for a popular app like Apollo. Admittedly I never heard of it before reading this tech news post today but it does seem to be popular.

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1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

I'm honestly not sure what Reddit's thinking. If they want to bankrupt alternative Reddit mobile clients then they're doing a good job.

 

$12K for 50M API requests is insane.

 

At most this should be $120.

 

50M API requests is nothing for a popular app like Apollo. Admittedly I never heard of it before reading this tech news post today but it does seem to be popular.

And this fails to consider fully free ones that only rely on ad revenue and one time payment like Boost. If im forced to use default Reddit app, i might as well leave because the only 3 subs im in for that website is r/OshiNoKo, r/OshiNoKoMemes, and r/NonCredibleDefense. 1 actually kinda informational sub that has its own server thats also managed by the subreddit moderators, and 2 meme subs i can live without.

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2 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

 

$12K for 50M API requests is insane.

 

At most this should be $120.

 

 

I understand the calculation though. Go look at Amazon Web Services and look at how much you are nickel and dimed to transfer data.

 

https://calculator.aws/#/addService/APIGateway

HTTP: $100 for 50M

REST: $50 to $2949 for 50M

Websocket: $50 for 50M

 

That is exclusive of data transfer costs. It's very likely that both twitter and reddit are basically pricing API access to kill third party apps.

 

Which you know what that means? That means the third party apps will just remove their API keys from the app and let the user enter their own keys, so if they want it, they can use it, or they can steal it out of the official app.

 

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5 hours ago, BondiBlue said:

I like the concept of Reddit, but the people running it just have no clue what their users actually want, and I'm not at all surprised by this move. I personally prefer to use the official Reddit mobile app, but I refuse to update to newer versions of the app. I'm using an old version that actually works properly. 

 

I'll be interested to see how much this actually affects Reddit in the long run.

lol hell the typical redditor doesn't know what they wan't. Me? I do! A nice summer vegisalad. and some. 'pie'.

 

Reddit is so toxic. It puts chernobyl and the radioactive dump that made the toxic avenger combined to shame.

 

Speaking of official reddit stuff. It's kind of sad when the best way to use them. After putting on a lead suit. Or just not at all. Is Reddit Ehancement Suit userscript.

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1 hour ago, Kisai said:

 

I understand the calculation though. Go look at Amazon Web Services and look at how much you are nickel and dimed to transfer data.

 

https://calculator.aws/#/addService/APIGateway

HTTP: $100 for 50M

REST: $50 to $2949 for 50M

Websocket: $50 for 50M

 

That is exclusive of data transfer costs. It's very likely that both twitter and reddit are basically pricing API access to kill third party apps.

 

Which you know what that means? That means the third party apps will just remove their API keys from the app and let the user enter their own keys, so if they want it, they can use it, or they can steal it out of the official app.

 

Do we know that Reddit uses AWS though for their APIs?

 

Cos you can make a homegrown API solution for significantly cheaper.

 

Also, if it's so expensive for Reddit to offer their APIs then perhaps Reddit should move to a Functions like service either with AWS or Azure so that they only pay when somebody calls their API.

 

Per call it's more expensive but the overall cost per month is negligible. If you take per API call pricing into account, I'm sure it would still turn out to be wayy cheaper than what they're asking.

 

And frankly Reddit is Reddit. They could approach Microsoft and ask for custom pricing if they wanted to. They would probably get it if they asked.

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8 hours ago, rcmaehl said:

and cause a mass decrease of its traffic.

Reduction in trafic that they are not making any money from is not a bad thing for them.    But I do think they could have figured out a price that would have made them more money per user than the add revenue and still enabled some premium there party devs. 

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You mean to say the same management that adds NFT avatar to Reddit will add data harvesting subscription to reddit? NO WAY! /s
Reddit's Avatar NFTs Generated Over $2.5 Million in One Day

  

2 hours ago, Gork said:

Reddit is so toxic. It puts chernobyl and the radioactive dump that made the toxic avenger combined to shame.

It really depends on the subreddit. For every r/Safemoon, there is an r/Eightysix.

 

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2 hours ago, Kisai said:

It's very likely that both twitter and reddit are basically pricing API access to kill third party apps.

This, and I think it's also that companies are starting to use the API access to scrape the sites for AI training purposes. (And the general bot issue)

 

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

And frankly Reddit is Reddit. They could approach Microsoft and ask for custom pricing if they wanted to. They would probably get it if they asked.

I think the general point in the pricing though is to dissuade the apps that literally do nothing but add active users but make them no money.  Generally hosting, even if it's hosting yourself can cost a lot of money when at a scale like Reddit.  Sure, it might only cost them a bit per API call but it's also having to now support the cost of those API calls from users who don't contribute funds (in terms of revenue) towards Reddit.

 

Based on Apollo's own numbers, they must have 650k+ users, which likely means that type of usage would equate to Reddit needing to pay and manage yet another server.  So I could understand why they want to either get revenue streams from those users or the API.

 

While I do think that the pricing is high, without knowing the Reddit finances or how many users truly do use other apps I can't make a proper assessment on how I feel about it.

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6 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

I checked. The dev does offer a mix of subs and one time purchases.

 

In addition to the free tier (which seems fairly generous for a free tier) there's also a one off payment option with a minimum of $5 but Max what want.

 

Then there's the sub for $1.49 per month or $12.99 per year.

who the hell pays for reddit?

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1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

You mean to say the same management that adds NFT avatar to Reddit will add data harvesting subscription to reddit? NO WAY! /s
Reddit's Avatar NFTs Generated Over $2.5 Million in One Day

  

It really depends on the subreddit. For every r/Safemoon, there is an r/Eightysix.

 

LOL feel the need to wash with strong soap and get checked for an mutant powers as well.  but you do make a good point. Do I dare mention r/rants ? and sometimes r/anime ? in one of those asking about good dubbed anime is a bit like putting bacon in a kennel. 

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3 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Do we know that Reddit uses AWS though for their APIs?

We don't, but if something is priced higher than AWS, it's absolutely a rip-off. That's not saying AWS is a good deal, AWS is also a rip-off, but if you are pricing an API access at 12x-25x the actual cost, then you're just insane.

 

3 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Cos you can make a homegrown API solution for significantly cheaper.

 

I'm sure you can, because you can easily push 50m HTTP connections through a $99/mo dollar server and can push that much on a quad-core xeon per HOUR. That gives you an idea of how far apart the API actual cost is. The cost is certainly not the "number of API queries" but rather the size of the queries.

 

If your query is essentially "select * from table" every time, on something like twitter or reddit, that might be measured in GB's. The AWS examples above uses something like 35KB/per api call. So do that math and that is 1.75GB for 50M queries.

 

You usually are not transferring binary data over API calls, just URL's to where those files might be stored, and there is zero access control to these files other than knowing the obscure path to get to them. So if they are stored on a S3 bucket or a CDN, you are being billed for that data transfer REGARDLESS of who touches it. So if every twitter/reddit post has a 250KB image on it, then suddenly that is 12.5GB in transfer/hr (300GB/day). Your typical 99$/mo server is basically calculated at usuing about 65% 100Mbit connection or 20TB. So 9TB, easy.

 

So assuming you only needed ONE server, a homegrown solution might literately cost $99/mo on an quad-core and be able to service the entire 50M API queries and the associated data subject to network capacity and latency imposed by doing so.

 

At any rate this was just to say the API price is completely insane, and what you're going to see is the same story happening with youtube downloaders where the third party apps basically emulate the official app and everything continues to operate as normal. There is no way you can block this other than killing your official app.

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People actually pay $$$ to use *reddit*? What.

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Is this basically the Twitter thread but with a search and replace Twitter to Reddit? Let the dust settle and things move on.

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11 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

I'm honestly not sure what Reddit's thinking. If they want to bankrupt alternative Reddit mobile clients then they're doing a good job.

 

 

Or do they just want to be paid for running Reddit?

Do you think LMG would be happy that people were taking LTT videos and hosting them on a FloatPlane clone and charging less for access?  Maybe LMG would want to get paid for their work rather than let someone else reap the reward for serving content?

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27 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Or do they just want to be paid for running Reddit?

Do you think LMG would be happy that people were taking LTT videos and hosting them on a FloatPlane clone and charging less for access?  Maybe LMG would want to get paid for their work rather than let someone else reap the reward for serving content?

Your example regarding LTT videos concerns copyright infringement, which using an API is nowhere near to. Besides, Reddit could just not offer an API if they didn't want people using their services in third-party applications. Totally pointless comparison. 

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Reddits a turd asteroid in the space of the interwebz. I cant say it would phase me one bit to watch it get helped into a highspeed freefall into the nearest planet of scumbags, shattering it into oblivion.

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37 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Your example regarding LTT videos concerns copyright infringement, which using an API is nowhere near to. Besides, Reddit could just not offer an API if they didn't want people using their services in third-party applications. Totally pointless comparison. 

Are the Reddit API calls not for "content" that reddit hosts and monetizes via ads on their website/application UI?

I know what API calls are, and I am talking about serving content not copyright.

Reddit offers API access, and charges what they feel is a fair price.  The issue is that people don't want to pay the price because their business model is to undercut the original content source (reddit) by delivering the content with their own UI/ads.  Just like taking LTT videos, cutting out the sponsor bits and putting in alternates and serving that up.  

Reddit and it's owners aren't exactly champions of the people but this issue isn't an issue of a big evil corp abusing it's position. 

 

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22 minutes ago, AI_Must_Di3 said:

Reddits a turd asteroid in the space of the interwebz. I cant say it would phase me one bit to watch it get helped into a highspeed freefall into the nearest planet of scumbags, shattering it into oblivion.

The community from Digg moved to Reddit.

Likely there will be an exodus from Reddit to the next community platform.

Once the capital is burned, and the community is viewed as group to monetize the platform will again upset the community and another exodus will be planned.

Social networks are generally not sustainable.

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