Apple under fire for their Idiotic decision to charge 27% for 3rd party payments

[darknessblade]

Summary

Apple thinking they got away with their new "solution" for 3rd party payment methods, but they are proven wrong by the Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets

 

Quotes

Quote

The Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets has concluded that the revised conditions that Apple has imposed on dating-app providers are unreasonable, and create an unnecessary barrier. The new conditions stipulate that dating-app providers must develop a completely new app if they wish to use an alternative payment system. Apple has informed ACM about these new conditions. App providers cannot adjust their existing apps. ACM finds this to be an unreasonable condition that is at odds with the requirements that Apple had set out. ACM is of the opinion that, as such, Apple still does not comply with ACM’s requirements. Apple must therefore pay another 5 million euros. The total of all penalty payments currently stands at 20 million euros.

 

What is wrong with Apple’s revised conditions?

In its revised conditions, Apple imposes a considerable number of conditions on dating-app providers that wish to use an alternative method of payment. For example, dating-app providers must develop a new app, and submit that new app to the Apple App Store. ACM is of the opinion that this condition hurts dating-app providers. Dating-app providers that opt for an alternative payment system are thus forced to incur additional costs. And consumers that currently use the app have to switch to the new app before they are able to use the alternative method of payment. It will cost app providers a lot of time and effort to inform consumers properly about such a change. For example, consumers will have to delete the old app, and install the new one. In addition, ACM has doubts about several other elements of the revised conditions  that Apple has imposed on dating-app providers. 

 

My thoughts

YUP this is a clear and cut case of I TOLD YOU SO.

 

Apple even thinking their "27%" fee would by Dutch regulators, is already idiotic on its own,

 

What is even more ironic is that the fine is given on Valentine's day. making the fine even more hilarious, regarding the context.

 

If we also include the mass claim news articles to this, it will finally mean apple will be forced to allow a 100% {service cost free, transfer fee, or whatchamacallit free} 3rd party payment methods that do not use apples payment system AT ALL. 

 

Sources

 

https://www.acm.nl/en/publications/acm-developing-new-app-unnecessary-and-unreasonable-condition-apple-imposes-dating-app-providers

 

https://9to5mac.com/2022/02/14/dutch-app-store-fine-dating-apps/

https://marketresearchbizreports.wordpress.com/2022/02/14/apple-fined-again-for-applying-unreasonable-conditions-to-dating-apps-after-dutch-antitrust-order/

https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/24/netherlands-apple-antitrust

https://www.security.nl/posting/743157/Apple+moet+ACM+opnieuw+5+miljoen+euro+betalen+wegens+onredelijke+voorwaarde?channel=rss

https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/14/apple-now-fined-20-million-euros-in-netherlands/

 

Original topic

Topic regarding a MASS claim against apple

 

 

[IkeaGnome]

Why is it okay for Steam, but not Apple?

[darknessblade]

6 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Why is it okay for Steam, but not Apple?

Because steam is a windows app/store, of which it is 1 of many potential ones.

 

While Apple is the sole owner, regulator, and enforcer on THEIR, platform

 

Not forgetting do you think that if a game dev has a game and does not want to sell their app/game trough steam, that they have no other option?

they can just sell it trough the many other stores "EPIC games, GOG games, even their own website"

and then they do not have to give Steam a single dime, because they did not sell trough STEAM.

 

if they do it trough their own website, they get 100% of all the profit. made from sales, not having to give a single time to anyone.

 

[WereCat]

4 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Why is it okay for Steam, but not Apple?

You don't have to use Steam. The are different stores. 

 

If you have an Apple device, you don't have a choice. 

[IkeaGnome]

3 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

Because steam is a windows app/store, of which it is 1 of many potential ones.

 

2 minutes ago, WereCat said:

You don't have to use Steam. The are different stores. 

Wanted to get that out of the way early. Maybe this wont just devolve into that normal thread that usually follows something like this title. 

I'm realizing it might not help because people still wont read.

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

Because steam is a windows app/store, of which it is 1 of many potential ones.

 

While Apple is the sole owner, regulator, and enforcer on THEIR, platform

 

Not forgetting do you think that if a game dev has a game and does not want to sell their app trough steam, that they have no other option?

they can just sell it trough the many other stores "EPIC games, GOG games, even their own website"

and then they do not have to give Steam a single dime, because they did not sell trough STEAM.

 

if they do it trough their own website, they get 100% of all the profit. made from sales, not having to give a single time to anyone.

 

Good thing you capitalized the important word. THEIR. It'+s not Google's, it's not Samsung's, it's THEIR. They created it from ground up. If you don't like it, you have bazillion Android phones. As much as I wouldn't mind the "freedom", I just don't understand the whining. NO ONE forces you to use an iPhone or iOS. NO ONE.

 

Quote

...they do not have to give Steam a single dime, because they did not sell trough STEAM

They don't give Valve a dime. But use their super high speed servers to download the game which they activated using key obtained from elsewhere. Sounds totally fair, doesn't it?

[Blademaster91]

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Good thing you capitalized the important word. THEIR. It'+s not Google's, it's not Samsung's, it's THEIR. They created it from ground up. If you don't like it, you have bazillion Android phones. As much as I wouldn't mind the "freedom", I just don't understand the whining. NO ONE forces you to use an iPhone or iOS. NO ONE.

And good thing you realize its their platform with their full enforcement of what can be on the app store, apple has a monopoly on what you can install on  your iphone, devs don't have a choice to not put their apps in iOS, otherwise they're losing out on half the phone market.

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

They don't give Valve a dime. But use their super high speed servers to download the game which they activated using key obtained from elsewhere. Sounds totally fair, doesn't it?

Valve makes money from steam sales, it's fair enough imo and the key difference is you don't need to use steam or sell on their platform, a lot of software devs just can't ignore the iOS market.

[RejZoR]

Yeah, THEIR platform, THEIR rules. If you don't like it, buy a freakingAndroid phone. How is this concept so god damn difficult to understand? I went the other direction because of crap I didn't like with Android. I could jerk around with 300 billion shitty ROM's and be my own master of the phone and whatnot. But I can't be bothered with this crap so I knowingly went with iPhone well knowing it has certain limitations or rules. And I've accepted them and they don't bother me that much. I can't understand people who knowingly go the same route and then they kick and scream about it. LOL MUCH?

[darknessblade]

32 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Good thing you capitalized the important word. THEIR. It'+s not Google's, it's not Samsung's, it's THEIR. They created it from ground up. If you don't like it, you have bazillion Android phones. As much as I wouldn't mind the "freedom", I just don't understand the whining. NO ONE forces you to use an iPhone or iOS. NO ONE.

 

They don't give Valve a dime. But use their super high speed servers to download the game which they activated using key obtained from elsewhere. Sounds totally fair, doesn't it?

European Regulators as well the government CAN and WILL enforce rules even if apple does not like it

 

Remember the browser choice window? this can be considered the EXACT same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu

----------------

Do you think just because Apple created it they can do whatever they want? You Do realize That what they do is abuse of their monopoly. which is illegal?

 

This is exactly WHY apple is under fire by Dutch regulators.

 

[RejZoR]

There is no real alternative for Windows. Saying there is Linux is not the same. There is for iOS. It's not even remotely the same.

[KaitouX]

49 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Good thing you capitalized the important word. THEIR. It'+s not Google's, it's not Samsung's, it's THEIR. They created it from ground up. If you don't like it, you have bazillion Android phones. As much as I wouldn't mind the "freedom", I just don't understand the whining. NO ONE forces you to use an iPhone or iOS. NO ONE.

 

They don't give Valve a dime. But use their super high speed servers to download the game which they activated using key obtained from elsewhere. Sounds totally fair, doesn't it?

Microsoft didn't force windows users to use Internet Explorer, they still got forced to change the defaults.

Just because you aren't forced to use the device/application/service doesn't mean the company is allowed to have as many anti-consumer and anti-competition policies as they want.

 

5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

There is no real alternative for Windows. Saying there is Linux is not the same. There is for iOS. It's not even remotely the same.

MacOS?

[darknessblade]

37 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

There is no real alternative for Windows. Saying there is Linux is not the same. There is for iOS. It's not even remotely the same.

AAH yes just keep defending apple, when they are the ones Violating Consumer regulatory rules

 

Why are you so keen on defending apple, if they just allow independent 3rd party app-stores and payment methods just like Google does with android, it would be fine.

----

But noo Apple did nothing wrong, BOO HOOO HOOO apple did nothing wrong. everyone saying otherwise is anti apple.

---

Do you even know what Consumer protection regulators do?

They prevent this sort monopolistic behavior, as it is not in favor of apple

[mecarry30]

21 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

AAH yes just keep defending apple, when they are the ones in violating.

 

Why are you so keen on defending apple, if they just allow independent 3rd party app-stores and payment methods just like Google does with android, it would be fine.

----

But noo Apple did nothing wrong, BOO HOOO HOOO apple did nothing wrong. everyone saying otherwise is anti apple.

---

Do you even know what Consumer protection regulators do?

They prevent this sort monopolistic behavior, as it is not in favor of apple

Because people might have moved away from Android because of 3rd party stores.

Third party payment methods I believe should be allowed but I think the app must be required to give the choice of Apple's IAP just for that choice for consumers.

Third party app stores, however, would fundamentally change the nature of iOS and the iPhone - for Windows and IE it was different since it was an open platform from the start.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Yeah, THEIR platform, THEIR rules. If you don't like it, buy a freakingAndroid phone.

Well of course. What's even sillier is differentiating a smartphone, tablet, smartTV from Mac and PC's, or game consoles.

 

Ultimately they're all computers, and the input device doesn't make it not one. It's how you get games or software on it.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

 

How is this concept so god damn difficult to understand? 

It's not difficult for people to understand. Just some people have a certain political bent when it comes to "that conflicts with my worldview, thus I shall deny it's legitimacy"

 

Just like Linux vs Windows, or GPL vs BSD. People join a tribe and then gatekeep people out of the tribe when they don't adhere to the groupthink.

 

If one can not think for themselves, they shouldn't participate in group activities, because yelling into the echo chamber just does nothing but make people yell louder and louder.

 

This is why sometimes I'll say something on a thread, knowing one or two specific people on this forum will be not be chill for the generalization. I don't generally take a side, except in two specific cases:

"Your motives are for piracy reasons"

and

"This hardware is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist"

 

Android fits both of these arguments. The people who typically argue in Android's favor, are the same ones who run ad blockers, and have no qualms about pirating things, their motives for wanting iOS to be more open is about denying ANYONE money, not just Apple.

 

That's why I kind of looked at this entire story as "Yeah, I saw that coming". Without a third party store there is no way they're going to be able to have a paid app on a device without paying anything to Apple. What Epic wants, is "the entire cake", just like everyone else complaining about the fees on the app store.

 

[Doobeedoo]

*laughs in Android*

[darknessblade]

1 hour ago, mecarry30 said:

Because people might have moved away from Android because of 3rd party stores.

Third party payment methods I believe should be allowed but I think the app must be required to give the choice of Apple's IAP just for that choice for consumers.

Third party app stores, however, would fundamentally change the nature of iOS and the iPhone - for Windows and IE it was different since it was an open platform from the start.

And that is exactly what the ACM wants.

Giving the consumer the choice.

Apple trying to get out of this regulation. trough nefarious means, just shows how ANTI-consumer they really are.

 

 As for the windows/IE example in the very early days this was extremely different. with MS doing shady backroom deals to destroy the competition.

 

But this was during the era when Apple was at the point of bankruptcy.

with MS saving them as to avoid sanctions against them due them getting a Monopoly if apple where to fall over

 

[mecarry30]

2 hours ago, darknessblade said:

And that is exactly what the ACM wants.

Giving the consumer the choice.

Apple trying to get out of this regulation. trough nefarious means, just shows how ANTI-consumer they really are.

 

 As for the windows/IE example in the very early days this was extremely different. with MS doing shady backroom deals to destroy the competition.

 

But this was during the era when Apple was at the point of bankruptcy.

with MS saving them as to avoid sanctions against them due them getting a Monopoly if apple where to fall over

 

Oh I don't care about the fine Apple is getting here, they deserve it. I'm talking about the bigger picture, where I believe that they should be allowed to open up third party payment systems but not allow third party app stores.

Advocating for 3rd party payment systems is easy - just point to the other apps that allow it, and you're done. But for 3rd party app stores, I believe that Apple has a legitimate argument for not allowing them, and the same goes for sideloading.

Apple does do some big deals, but at that point the app they do it with can negatively impact iOS as well so Apple has something to lose there as well. Apple does it so that they don't suffer, whereas Microsoft did it so that they could benefit. One is offensive, the other is defensive.

[Mark Kaine]

6 hours ago, WereCat said:

You don't have to use Steam. The are different stores. 

 

6 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Wanted to get that out of the way early.

This argument always falls flat imo. Yes there are other stores but a lot of games you can simply only get through Steam… and that there are 3rd party stores that sell *Steam* games doesnt really change that, Steam still gets a cut and the user still has to use Steam. Also most of these 3rd party stores are pretty niche because they're also kinda sketchy.

 

 

On the other hand Android is a lot bigger than ios, and as such the situation is different. If devs think they "must" be on Apple its probably because Apple offers a better service for them, its certainly not the biggest market, unlike Steam for PC games, in phone market thats still Android and its not even close.

 

Quote

"Android maintained its position as the leading mobile operating system worldwide in January 2022, controlling the mobile OS market with a close to 70 percent share, while iOS accounted for around 25 percent of the mobile operating system market."

 

iOS worldwide is close to irrelevant… (news flash)

 

 

[TrigrH]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

but a lot of games you can simply only get through Steam…

You've missed the point / got it backwards.

 

We are talking about selling your game on steam, which is optional to getting it sold on a PC marketplace, this is not the same for the iphone.

[KaitouX]

7 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

and that there are 3rd party stores that sell *Steam* games doesnt really change that, Steam still gets a cut and the user still has to use Steam.

Steam doesn't take a cut from Steam Keys sales, so the first part is wrong but you do have to go through Steam. Anyway like already said you're missing the point.

[WereCat]

7 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

This argument always falls flat imo. Yes there are other stores but a lot of games you can simply only get through Steam… and that there are 3rd party stores that sell *Steam* games doesnt really change that, Steam still gets a cut and the user still has to use Steam. Also most of these 3rd party stores are pretty niche because they're also kinda sketchy.

 

 

While that is true. The developer/publisher still has a choice as well. At the end of the day, they are getting a cut taken off of their sale.

 

Also, what Apple is doing would be equivalent to Steam taking a cut and then also Microsoft taking a cut as well because Steam was running on Windows. And also Microsoft taking a cut from any other store that was selling stuff while running on Windows. And also Microsoft taking a cut when selling in their own store.

[RejZoR]

8 minutes ago, WereCat said:

While that is true. The developer/publisher still has a choice as well. At the end of the day, they are getting a cut taken off of their sale.

 

Also, what Apple is doing would be equivalent to Steam taking a cut and then also Microsoft taking a cut as well because Steam was running on Windows. And also Microsoft taking a cut from any other store that was selling stuff while running on Windows. And also Microsoft taking a cut when selling in their own store.

It's not even remotely the same. iPhone is Apple's, iOS is Apple's, App Store is Apple's... It's all Apple's and yet somehow everyone finds it outrageous that they charge fees. Everyone should just be a charity based on your arbitrary rules.

[HenrySalayne]

14 hours ago, RejZoR said:

There is no real alternative for Windows. Saying there is Linux is not the same. There is for iOS. It's not even remotely the same.

Just the other day somebody tried to explain to me that nobody needs Windows and an iPad can completely substitute a Surface tablet.

I'm totally fine if somebody changes their opinion based on new facts but with this particular topic everyone is just illogically changing the story every single time it fits their tale.

 

There are alternatives to Windows. Mac OS for example. And Windows and Mac OS can be considered "open" compared to iOS. Why should iOS get a special treatment? Why should it get an extra category just so Apples inexcusable shenanigans are excused? I don't get it. Either we apply the same rules to all OSs or we just don't have this conversation at all.

 

All in all, what Apple does here, it's just another brick in the wall.

[Sauron]

15 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Why is it okay for Steam, but not Apple?

Steam doesn't charge you for in-app transactions. Also Steam doesn't have exclusive distribution access to the Windows platform.

[Mark Kaine]

8 hours ago, TrigrH said:

You've missed the point / got it backwards.

 

We are talking about selling your game on steam, which is optional to getting it sold on a PC marketplace, this is not the same for the iphone.

I get what you're saying, but i dont agree.

 

16 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Why is it okay for Steam, but not Apple?

 

16 hours ago, WereCat said:

You don't have to use Steam. The are different stores. 

 

There are different stores for phones too. Its basically the same thing, the only difference is that apple has their own store on their device, but my point  is you *do* have a choice, developers and users, nobody needs to choose apple.

Kinda the same thing as consoles, you cant use the xbox store on nintendo switch or playstation…

 

And the "30%" cut is neither ok for Steam, apple, nintendo, etc, imo, so what do we do about it, only point at apple?