Apple under fire for their Idiotic decision to charge 27% for 3rd party payments

[Kisai]

38 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

OK, this is wild claim. Could you please explain to me why a game can be free on the Epic store while it costs full price on Steam? This must be illegal then.

That's called "loss-leading", where EPIC is paying the publisher the asking price.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/08/07/epic-is-losing-an-astonishing-amount-of-money-securing-games-for-egs/?sh=4fb0210a4542

 

Loss-leading is not illegal, and pretty much any time you see something "on sale", that is a loss leader by the store. The publisher or manufacturer has little to do with it unless it's a consumable product with a shelflife.

 

38 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

If Apple takes 30% delivery fees, this seems to fit perfectly.

 

Only conclusion from this one is to shut down the internet for good. Or money. Or knives. "It can be used for evil so we don't have it at all".

 

Nah, the problem is that everyone (including Microsoft and Apple) is moving towards closing the sideloading loopholes to protect the customer from malware. Ever notice how many software programs are "broken" when not run as admin? If an application requires to be run as administrator, the application by definition is broken because a properly locked down computer will not permit that action.

 

This came up, over and over and over and over and over again at the engineering firm, where 90% of the software tries to phone home for updates, but can't install them.

[pas008]

8 hours ago, HRD said:

If Microsoft made a laptop or a phone which doesn’t allow sideloading and was clear about it. So people are buying it knowing that it doesn’t allow sideloading and it succeeds it is ok. Microsoft tried that BTW and failed (windows rt only allowed software from the Microsoft store with 30% commission) because people did not like it or buy it not because it was illegal to prevent sideloading.

ms could easily force an update to any connected device its their platform lol

would it be ok? would everyone bitch?

lol

 

<removed by staff>

Edited February 17, 2022 by SansVarnic
Removed content.

[Forbidden Wafer]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:20 AM, Mark Kaine said:

Kinda the same thing as consoles, you cant use the xbox store on nintendo switch or playstation…

I think locked-down platforms are justifiable if the devices are sold at a loss or tiny margins, which absolutely isn't the case for the iPhone (35% gross margin).

[HRD]

45 minutes ago, pas008 said:

ms could easily force an update to any connected device its their platform lol

would it be ok? would everyone bitch?

lol

This is not the same. If I got a device or a Windows license that I already paid for Microsoft has no right to change the product fundamentally without my consent. This is not the same as iPhones which have been locked-down since the beginning and people know that and still buy them. So if Microsoft announces Windows 12 which doesn’t allow side-loading and I bought it anyway. It is ok. It is a choice that I made.

[Blademaster91]

12 minutes ago, HRD said:

This is not the same. If I got a device or a Windows license that I already paid for Microsoft has no right to change the product fundamentally without my consent.

Well I would consider windows 11 a fundamental change, the license I paid for is valid, but I can't use it unless I buy hardware which meets the strict hardware requirements, a significant change from windows 8 and windows 10.

12 minutes ago, HRD said:

This is not the same as iPhones which have been locked-down since the beginning and people know that and still buy them. So if Microsoft announces Windows 12 which doesn’t allow side-loading and I bought it anyway. It is ok. It is a choice that I made.

But iphones could still be locked down unless you enable settings to allow side loading, most people buying iphones wouldn't choose to sideload if they want to use the locked down app store.

[Kisai]

13 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Well I would consider windows 11 a fundamental change, the license I paid for is valid, but I can't use it unless I buy hardware which meets the strict hardware requirements, a significant change from windows 8 and windows 10.

It is, and there have already been threads on this.

13 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

But iphones could still be locked down unless you enable settings to allow side loading, most people buying iphones wouldn't choose to sideload if they want to use the locked down app store.

Honestly, that's what "turning on sideloading" should do on all devices. Factory reset the device, delete the app store, and be blocked from using the devices stores without factory resetting the device again. If the device manufacturer allows using the app store on "sideloading enabled" devices, they must manually install that version of the store.

 

[pas008]

31 minutes ago, HRD said:

This is not the same. If I got a device or a Windows license that I already paid for Microsoft has no right to change the product fundamentally without my consent. This is not the same as iPhones which have been locked-down since the beginning and people know that and still buy them. So if Microsoft announces Windows 12 which doesn’t allow side-loading and I bought it anyway. It is ok. It is a choice that I made.

oh microsoft cant but apple can?

should I go over those things apple blocked in updates to keep their shit lockeddown more not the same as when people bought them lol geez

[HRD]

19 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Well I would consider windows 11 a fundamental change, the license I paid for is valid, but I can't use it unless I buy hardware which meets the strict hardware requirements, a significant change from windows 8 and windows 10.

You paid for windows 10 and you got what you paid for Microsoft has no right to force an update to your device that would fundamentally change how it works unless you agreed to the change. In your previous reply you said they might force an update. Not giving you an update or asking you to update to a version that would change the product but doing that after your approval are different.

[HRD]

6 minutes ago, pas008 said:

oh microsoft cant but apple can?

should I go over those things apple blocked in updates to keep their shit lockeddown more not the same as when people bought them lol geez

What are you talking about??

Apple is selling iPhones with their proprietary software and curated App Store. No fundamental change has occurred. I was replying to what he said that Microsoft can force an update to your device to change how it works. If Apple has done such a thing please let me know

[HRD]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

But iphones could still be locked down unless you enable settings to allow side loading, most people buying iphones wouldn't choose to sideload if they want to use the locked down app store.

43 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Honestly, that's what "turning on sideloading" should do on all devices. Factory reset the device, delete the app store, and be blocked from using the devices stores without factory resetting the device again. If the device manufacturer allows using the app store on "sideloading enabled" devices, they must manually install that version of the store.

That is not true. There is an example of the model you are proposing (android ) and it doesn’t really work the way you think it does. Fortnite launched outside the play store, millions of kids enabled side loading to get it. malware versions of Fortnite targeted unsuspecting gamers in the months following the Android launch. By 2019, Epic acknowledged security vulnerabilities in non-iOS versions of Fortnite that exposed hundreds of millions of players to being hacked.

Privacy benefits from this model as well.

“Under the current model, large developers who rely on advertising for monetization must comply or leave the App Store to avoid these requirements. Accordingly, privacy, more than other issues, likely benefits from some app distribution restrictions.”

epic v apple

Not to mention cheating in games and piracy.

Once you open the door it won’t be the same.

[Blademaster91]

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Factory reset the device, delete the app store, and be blocked from using the devices stores without factory resetting the device again. If the device manufacturer allows using the app store on "sideloading enabled" devices, they must manually install that version of the store.

IMO getting blocked from the app store or play store would be an overreach if someone chose to enable sideloading, it should be a option hidden in settings instead of punishing the user for choosing to sideload an app from another store.

45 minutes ago, HRD said:

You paid for windows 10 and you got what you paid for Microsoft has no right to force an update to your device that would fundamentally change how it works unless you agreed to the change. In your previous reply you said they might force an update. Not giving you an update or asking you to update to a version that would change the product but doing that after your approval are different.

So microsoft can make fundamental changes to their OS but apple can't?

I paid for a windows 10 key which also works on windows 11, expect for the arbitrary changes made so I can't install windows 11 on hardware which works fine with windows 10, microsoft shouldn't have the right to block users from updating their systems when the update itself is a UI change with some added features.

13 minutes ago, HRD said:

That is not true. There is an example of the model you are proposing (android ) and it doesn’t really work the way you think it does. Fortnite launched outside the play store, millions of kids enabled side loading to get it. malware versions of Fortnite targeted unsuspecting gamers in the months following the Android launch. By 2019, Epic acknowledged security vulnerabilities in non-iOS versions of Fortnite that exposed hundreds of millions of players to being hacked.

Privacy benefits from this mode as well.

Under the current model, large “developers who rely on advertising for monetization must comply or leave the App Store to avoid these requirements. Accordingly, privacy, more than other issues, likely benefits from some app distribution restrictions.”

epic v apple

Not to mention cheating in games and piracy.

Once you open the door it won’t be the same.

That is the nature of sideloading though, you're free to install you want, and if someone ends up downloading a fake malware app, then its their fault for not making sure its the valid version of the app.

And on everything else which is a computer, whether its a console, PC,tablet, or phone, cheating and piracy is going to be an issue.

[HRD]

9 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

That is the nature of sideloading though, you're free to install you want, and if someone ends up downloading a fake malware app, then its their fault for not making sure its the valid version of the app.

And on everything else which is a computer, whether its a console, PC,tablet, or phone, cheating and piracy is going to be an issue.

They bought an iPhone because they want apple to do that job for them. Every app is in one place. Way safer and more convenient. I don’t want a phone that will make me search for the app on the web and make sure it is not malicious and then I will have to repeat to update every side-loaded app. People who want that have the option to buy an android.

 

16 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

So microsoft can make fundamental changes to their OS but apple can't?

I paid for a windows 10 key which also works on windows 11, expect for the arbitrary changes made so I can't install windows 11 on hardware which works fine with windows 10, microsoft shouldn't have the right to block users from updating their systems when the update itself is a UI change with some added features.

Not giving you updates is completely different. Apple can block iOS 16 update from your phone even if the hardware is capable of running it. Many android phones are running older versions of android while a weaker phone runs the latest one. Is it ideal? No

but it is not illegal. 

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

I think locked-down platforms are justifiable if the devices are sold at a loss or tiny margins, which absolutely isn't the case for the iPhone (35% gross margin).

I would tend to agree, also a case for consoles being very specialized could be made, unlike phones which are obviously multi purpose tools… but as you can see in ITT everyone seems to have their own arbitary rules for why its ok for one device and not another, or any possible combination thereof…

 

I just think this should be regulated more clearly, and probably differently too…

 

Right to repair was a big thing, everyone seemed to agree on, a right to install whatever you want on a device you own (as long its technically feasible) should be just as important regarding consumer rights, and many "open" platforms show that it can be done successfully.

 

Whole PC gaming market wouldn't be nearly as big if PC was a closed platform… the ability to change and fix stuff on your own or through the community is what makes it thrive and differentiate from the console market.

 

(plus all the other software that runs on PC wether Microsoft likes it or not) 

[Mark Kaine]

6 minutes ago, HRD said:

They bought an iPhone because they want apple to do that job for them. Every app is in one place. Way safer and more convenient

Thats always the same false argument though, its the same on Android, *except* you can in special cases where there is no app in the store get it elsewhere, with a huge warning that there's a risk in doing so, but you can…  thats simply an advantage iOS doesnt have, and you cant really say "but my security" because it is only an *option* and not the default to be able to sideload apps… Its really just plain simple, dont install apps that arent from the store if thats what you want… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

Btw does Apple have a Bilibili app??

[HRD]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Thats always the same false argument though, its the same on Android, *except* you can in special cases where there is no app in the store get it elsewhere, with a huge warning that there's a risk in doing so, but you can…  thats simply an advantage iOS doesnt have, and you cant really say "but my security" because it is only an *option* and not the default to be able to sideload apps… Its really just plain simple, dont install apps that arent from the store if thats what you want

Bro you skipped most of my arguments. 

1 hour ago, HRD said:

That is not true. There is an example of the model you are proposing (android ) and it doesn’t really work the way you think it does. Fortnite launched outside the play store, millions of kids enabled side loading to get it. malware versions of Fortnite targeted unsuspecting gamers in the months following the Android launch. By 2019, Epic acknowledged security vulnerabilities in non-iOS versions of Fortnite that exposed hundreds of millions of players to being hacked.

Privacy benefits from this model as well.

“Under the current model, large developers who rely on advertising for monetization must comply or leave the App Store to avoid these requirements. Accordingly, privacy, more than other issues, likely benefits from some app distribution restrictions.”

epic v apple

Not to mention cheating in games and piracy.

Once you open the door it won’t be the same.

[Forbidden Wafer]

29 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I just think this should be regulated more clearly, and probably differently too…

 

Right to repair was a big thing, everyone seemed to agree on, a right to install whatever you want on a device you own (as long its technically feasible) should be just as important regarding consumer rights, and many "open" platforms show that it can be done successfully.

I mean, I think we should be legally allowed to tinker with what we bought and fuck OEMs with a shit ton of regulation and fines whenever they wanted to push this kind of crap.

At the same time, it doesn't bother me nearly as much if they explicitly choose to make up their profits on software by subsidizing the hardware, or on the hardware itself. 

[Mark Kaine]

32 minutes ago, HRD said:

Bro you skipped most of my arguments

I mean thats one good example of things going wrong yeah, but it was also a really unusual case, and that just goes to show how much epic sucks I guess.

 

32 minutes ago, HRD said:

Not to mention cheating in games and piracy.

i dunno about any apps that enable cheating or piracy… i was under the impression you need to root your phone for something like that? 

 

ps: i mean depends  what you mean with piracy, if i download a jpg thats probably already piracy… do you download jpgs?  O.O

 

 

edit: 

33 minutes ago, HRD said:

By 2019, Epic acknowledged security vulnerabilities in non-iOS versions of Fortnite that exposed hundreds of millions of players to being hacked.

Btw, nothing to argue against what you said in this regard, but if that happened… how is epic even allowed to still operate? if i would be a regulator i would immediately revoke all licences, the company would never again work with anything "software"… seriously anything "internet" is still just the wild wild west, largely unregulated. >_>

[pas008]

2 hours ago, HRD said:

What are you talking about??

Apple is selling iPhones with their proprietary software and curated App Store. No fundamental change has occurred. I was replying to what he said that Microsoft can force an update to your device to change how it works. If Apple has done such a thing please let me know

they have never gave updates to block apps and other ways for users to do what they want with their own device?

hmm

[HRD]

25 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

i dunno about any apps that enable cheating or piracy… i was under the impression you need to root your phone for something like that? 

 

ps: i mean depends  what you mean with piracy, if i download a jpg thats probably already piracy… do you download jpgs?  O.O

You just need to go to the settings and enable it which even kids can do. BTW part of epic lawsuit against google is that there is too much friction that you need to go and enable it.

It is way easier to cheat in games using android. 
I meant app piracy since we were talking about side loading. Many android users search for a free way to get an app or install an unlocked full featured apk even if they can pay they will only pay if they don’t find it for free.

[HRD]

9 minutes ago, pas008 said:

they have never gave updates to block apps and other ways for users to do what they want with their own device?

hmm

Yes, I am not aware of any update that was forced on iOS users. 

[Mark Kaine]

5 minutes ago, HRD said:

meant app piracy since we were talking about side loading. Many android users search for a free way to get an app or install an unlocked full featured apk even if they can pay they will only pay if they don’t find it for free.

huh, ok i kinda figured thats a thing… i would just naturally assume thats a scam… and i wasnt sure if you need to be rooted (depends I guess)

 

7 minutes ago, HRD said:

It is way easier to cheat in games using android

probably similar to above, but thats what anti cheat is for, and also Steam seems to be doing just fine (and cheating is rampant) 

[HRD]

49 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Btw, nothing to argue against what you said in this regard, but if that happened… how is epic even allowed to still operate? if i would be a regulator i would immediately revoke all licences, the company would never again work with anything "software"… seriously anything "internet" is still just the wild wild west, largely unregulated. >_>

If hundreds of millions were actually  hacked it gonna be a different story but not all of them were hacked.

 

8 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

probably similar to above, but thats what anti cheat is for, and also Steam seems to be doing just fine (and cheating is rampant) 

True but if you looked at iOS and the consoles(the devices with the walled garden model) and compare them to PCs and Android in terms of cheating and piracy. The difference is huge. 

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, HRD said:

That is not true. There is an example of the model you are proposing (android ) and it doesn’t really work the way you think it does. Fortnite launched outside the play store, millions of kids enabled side loading to get it. malware versions of Fortnite targeted unsuspecting gamers in the months following the Android launch. 

You're just proving why sideloading is bad to enable.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

IMO getting blocked from the app store or play store would be an overreach if someone chose to enable sideloading, it should be a option hidden in settings instead of punishing the user for choosing to sideload an app from another store.

 

 

I think you misunderstand. I mean you literately have to install the app store of your choosing, via the same sideloading, which can be the one provided by the OS (eg Google Play, Apple App Store, Epic, etc)

 

The point of factory resetting between modes is to ensure that any malware or pirate crap on the phone doesn't end up in the clean App store-secured mode, and the app store-secured mode doesn't overwrite/erase your sideloaded software since it won't be aware of it.

 

As it is, on Android devices, you can do quite a bit of damage to the OS just by replacing the launcher, since each phone manufacturer probably pinned their automatic device features to it. Even on MEMU and Bluestacks, people do this to undermine the subscription-nature of the emulators.

 

 

[HRD]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

You're just proving why sideloading is bad to enable.

No, I am proving why sideloading is a bad option to exist. If epic had no option other than the official store, none of that would have happened. iOS kids had none of these issues and malware because epic was forced to come to the official store. Facebook can’t get around the privacy restrictions because there is only one store and they could be removed if they miss around(which some apps tried at the beginning by breaking the app if you opt-out of tracking) 
having sideloading as an option changes everything and we already have Android. Can we just keep iOS as it is for the people who love this model?