LTT Official Folding Month 2020!!!

[GOTSpectrum]

4 minutes ago, wall03 said:

 

not a lot, but something.

You are as appreciated as anyone else on the team! 

[marknd59]

I'm beating @Den-Fi  

 

[wall03]

2 minutes ago, marknd59 said:

I'm beating @Den-Fi  

 

nice.

[cbigfoot]

4 minutes ago, marknd59 said:

I'm beating @Den-Fi  

 

@Den-Fiwill never post again  or he will post 100 times to get to 269. 

 

bender has had fan replaced and 3200mhz memory installed. 
and a new ish maglev fan installed. 

[GOTSpectrum]

3 minutes ago, marknd59 said:

I'm beating @Den-Fi  

 

I'm just glad I'm number one at something! 

[Unilevers]

i had a dual Xeon system with quad titan maxxwells all watercooled - was the worst decision i ever made dont do it.  After a year ish i took it off water and returned it to air.  Water is not meant for 24/7 loads and all it does is heat the hell outa your room and degrade the coolant super fast.  On 24/7 use i had to change the coolant every few months as it would degrade - i literally tried 3-4 different kinds and it didnt matter only lasted a few months.  and draining and filling a loop is not super easy or clean.  change back to air and the parts run hotter but still within range and all you do is blow them out every year.  for 24/7 rigs i wouldnt water cool, theres a reason commercial stuff isnt water cooled.

[cbigfoot]

6 minutes ago, Unilevers said:

i had a dual Xeon system with quad titan maxxwells all watercooled - was the worst decision i ever made dont do it.  After a year ish i took it off water and returned it to air.  Water is not meant for 24/7 loads and all it does is heat the hell outa your room and degrade the coolant super fast.  On 24/7 use i had to change the coolant every few months as it would degrade - i literally tried 3-4 different kinds and it didnt matter only lasted a few months.  and draining and filling a loop is not super easy or clean.  change back to air and the parts run hotter but still within range and all you do is blow them out every year.  for 24/7 rigs i wouldnt water cool, theres a reason commercial stuff isnt water cooled.

That’s why I got rid of the AIO I have running folding at home On the aio would soak the radiator and just hit the hell out of my room but not cool the CPU. Just that change lowered my room temperature that day by 7f and that was morning to afternoon. With my room gets warmer in the afternoon in general with the aio my room gradient versus the rest of the house was 15 to 20°F some days nowadays it’s about 4-5°F

[BuckGup]

13 minutes ago, Unilevers said:

i had a dual Xeon system with quad titan maxxwells all watercooled - was the worst decision i ever made dont do it.  After a year ish i took it off water and returned it to air.  Water is not meant for 24/7 loads and all it does is heat the hell outa your room and degrade the coolant super fast.  On 24/7 use i had to change the coolant every few months as it would degrade - i literally tried 3-4 different kinds and it didnt matter only lasted a few months.  and draining and filling a loop is not super easy or clean.  change back to air and the parts run hotter but still within range and all you do is blow them out every year.  for 24/7 rigs i wouldnt water cool, theres a reason commercial stuff isnt water cooled.

 

8 minutes ago, cbigfoot said:

That’s why I got rid of the AIO I have running folding at home On the aio would soak the radiator and just hit the hell out of my room but not cool the CPU. Just that change lowered my room temperature that day by 7f and that was morning to afternoon. With my room gets warmer in the afternoon in general with the aio my room gradient versus the rest of the house was 15 to 20°F some days nowadays it’s about 4-5°F

That's not how liquid cooling works. Assuming the card isn't boosting any higher on water, same goes for a CPU, it will heat your room up the same amount as air cooling would. 

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, LAR_Systems said:

Sometimes I can't tell if your name is Egg-Roll or Egg-Troll but assuming even for the lols this is seriousish 

 

The concept of using non specialized (used, old, second hand) freezers, fridges etc. to add to some kind of mega cooling loop again is only for benchmarking and to say you did it once.  

 

The compressors in these types of devices are not intended to be running constantly and will not last very long at all if constant heat is added to the system they are trying to cool.

 

Fridges and freezers intended are for you to open the door or the temp to rise slowly while closed and then the compressor to kick in to only burst cool the area to the right temp, then shutoff.  (While using lots of power and generating a fair amount of heat to do so)

 

This is why when Linus shows this stuff he is using specifically a water chiller, which is designed at least to convert warm/hot water to cold water for continuous use, and the ice tub is constantly having new ice dropped in, not a 24/7 use case.

Don't kill your home appliances trying to cool your PCs.

 

 

Oh... and mineral oil... just... no... NO NO NO... also... doubt mineral oil would cool jack these days with modern GPU/CPU thermals in a multi GPU system.

 

Semi-serious, but not expecting anyone willing (or crazy enough) to test it

 

Tho you are assuming the freezer would run 24/7 which isn't known for sure since no one has tried, it could work with the proper setup which requires way too much time to figure out the layout to make it worth while, which not even LTT would do, they would just buy a freezer dump ice in throw tubing around the ice and call it a failure because of time constraints. I'm not suggesting throwing the computer into the freezer itself either (as mentioned in the video linked above) and one could also throw the loop threw a rad or an extended loop before entering giving a "passive" cooling effect, which in its self depending on climate might be enough. The key to this working is understanding thermodynamics to some degree, and while a small freezer could work I personally wouldn't suggest using one as bigger is better in this case, plus in order for it to work right everything would need to be properly positioned and the freezer at the right temperature (not too cold causing ice to form in the tubes and not too warm causing ice to melt defeating the purpose), which is why while I think it is completely possible to pull off w/o killing the freezer, the time it would take isn't worth the hassle. Will such a setup shorten the life of a freezer? Sure, by how much it depends on how one does it and the size of the freezer.

 

Linus hasn't tried something like this, all he has done is use a fridge with a computer inside which is illogical (for many reasons) and a sub zero build which I am technically suggesting however doing it right will prevent condensation. The closest thing he has done is this:

 

There's a reason why I suggested a freezer full of ice and used instead of anything else. The only thing one has to worry about if done right is this or something similar happening:

 

I also wasn't suggesting a pure mineral oil setup, I stated water cooled, you would need to know the thermal properties of both fluids and the right tubing to ensure proper cooling is to happen.

 

Anything is possible if one is willing and can figure out the problem, so no not trolling, if you think I'm trolling that is your choice.

 

  

1 hour ago, Unilevers said:

i had a dual Xeon system with quad titan maxxwells all watercooled - was the worst decision i ever made dont do it.  After a year ish i took it off water and returned it to air.  Water is not meant for 24/7 loads and all it does is heat the hell outa your room and degrade the coolant super fast.  On 24/7 use i had to change the coolant every few months as it would degrade - i literally tried 3-4 different kinds and it didnt matter only lasted a few months.  and draining and filling a loop is not super easy or clean.  change back to air and the parts run hotter but still within range and all you do is blow them out every year.  for 24/7 rigs i wouldnt water cool, theres a reason commercial stuff isnt water cooled.

Interesting, I've not had that issue yet. However when I built my computer I took everything into consideration, from topping up to emptying the loop.

 

The reason why commercial won't go water is due to potential damages, a fan is easy to fix but water damage isn't. Changing the fluids every few months is likely still cheaper than the power of all the fans, plus the noise and would likely save them on AC costs too.

[cbigfoot]

1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

 

That's not how liquid cooling works. Assuming the card isn't boosting any higher on water, same goes for a CPU, it will heat your room up the same amount as air cooling would. 

well then explain that to me running a 3900x on a corsair 280 Aio why it would work great for normal use but if i run cpu hard like F@H for days at a time non stop why it would heat my room more than a air cooler does and why the CPU would run close to thermal max on a 280 (Installed properly) i had tried with both quad maglev in a push pull and Noctua industrial 3k rpmfans pust with maglev pull. and even tried 1/2 1/2 push pull where 1/2 the radiator was the 3k fans and 1/2 maglev could not keep the loop from buildingup the temps and throttling.

[shaz2sxy]

Nooo my main computer is down

 

Went to shutdown the pc to add the 3070.

 

Windows wouldn't shutdown for some reason. Restarted it and turned it off at the bios screen. 

 

Now the pc won't boot into Windows. Keep getting select keyboard katiubt and choose an option trouble shoot or turn off. 

 

Start up repair won't even work 

 

Grrr

The 3070 is in my sons PC so that is working fine. 

 

Now down a 2070 super and 1070 ti

[cbigfoot]

3 minutes ago, shaz2sxy said:

Nooo my main computer is down

 

Went to shutdown the pc to add the 3070.

 

Windows wouldn't shutdown for some reason. Restarted it and turned it off at the bios screen. 

 

Now the pc won't boot into Windows. Keep getting select keyboard katiubt and choose an option trouble shoot or turn off. 

 

Start up repair won't even work 

 

Grrr

The 3070 is in my sons PC so that is working fine. 

 

Now down a 2070 super and 1070 ti

well thattsucks but at least ionly have 1 crazy cat nipping at my heels not 2.

[vsteel]

4 minutes ago, cbigfoot said:

well then explain that to me running a 3900x on a corsair 280 Aio why it would work great for normal use but if i run cpu hard like F@H for days at a time non stop why it would heat my room more than a air cooler does and why the CPU would run close to thermal max on a 280 (Installed properly) i had tried with both quad maglev in a push pull and Noctua industrial 3k rpmfans pust with maglev pull. and even tried 1/2 1/2 push pull where 1/2 the radiator was the 3k fans and 1/2 maglev could not keep the loop from buildingup the temps and throttling.

Your loop was not sized properly but it kept things cooler longer than the air so you have throttling more on the air than the water.

 

Imagine you have a heater putting out 200 watts of heat.  If you have an air cooler or you have water cooling to pull the heat out of the system it is going to heat the room the same.   Both air and water systems will hit saturation at some point, the difference is the water cooling will take longer. 

 

I work around electronics that run 24x7 which are water cooled and while there is some monitoring, it can work for years.  These are 3 phase 208V/100A electronics (not power electronics, just board after board of high speed electronics).  

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, cbigfoot said:

well then explain that to me running a 3900x on a corsair 280 Aio why it would work great for normal use but if i run cpu hard like F@H for days at a time non stop why it would heat my room more than a air cooler does and why the CPU would run close to thermal max on a 280 (Installed properly) i had tried with both quad maglev in a push pull and Noctua industrial 3k rpmfans pust with maglev pull. and even tried 1/2 1/2 push pull where 1/2 the radiator was the 3k fans and 1/2 maglev could not keep the loop from buildingup the temps and throttling.

Thermodynamics.

 

The AIO takes all heat and pushes out in one area and has limited capacity since the loop is short, where as a fan would not push all heat out but would allow some to stay in the case plus has a much more vast amount of flow ability which can vary depending on how you set your cases airflow. It also doesn't help that Ryzen also runs hot, it's one reason why I'm not folding on my 3800x it heats up the loop too much because even my custom loop is too short for it to effective push out all the heat generated, I would have to add at least another 120mm rad to help cool it, it produces that much heat.

 

Ultimately both setups should heat the area equally, what your are feeling is the AIO working actually more efficiently than air possibly as air will spread around the whole case heating a general area which depending on your homes airflow could slow down the increase in the rooms temperature where as the AIO would only be a directional path and pushing all heat out as possible in force. Personally I would never buy an AIO because they to me are a waste of money, esp under load CPU/GPUs, they'll also burnout faster than a custom loop since you can't add water to them easily.

[cbigfoot]

22 minutes ago, vsteel said:

Your loop was not sized properly but it kept things cooler longer than the air so you have throttling more on the air than the water.

 

Imagine you have a heater putting out 200 watts of heat.  If you have an air cooler or you have water cooling to pull the heat out of the system it is going to heat the room the same.   Both air and water systems will hit saturation at some point, the difference is the water cooling will take longer. 

 

I work around electronics that run 24x7 which are water cooled and while there is some monitoring, it can work for years.  These are 3 phase 208V/100A electronics (not power electronics, just board after board of high speed electronics).  

 

19 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Thermodynamics.

 

The AIO takes all heat and pushes out in one area and has limited capacity since the loop is short, where as a fan would not push all heat out but would allow some to stay in the case plus has a much more vast amount of flow ability which can vary depending on how you set your cases airflow. It also doesn't help that Ryzen also runs hot, it's one reason why I'm not folding on my 3800x it heats up the loop too much because even my custom loop is too short for it to effective push out all the heat generated, I would have to add at least another 120mm rad to help cool it, it produces that much heat.

 

Ultimately both setups should heat the area equally, what your are feeling is the AIO working actually more efficiently than air possibly as air will spread around the whole case heating a general area which depending on your homes airflow could slow down the increase in the rooms temperature where as the AIO would only be a directional path and pushing all heat out as possible in force. Personally I would never buy an AIO because they to me are a waste of money, esp under load CPU/GPUs, they'll also burnout faster than a custom loop since you can't add water to them easily.

well either way supposedly the CORSAIR HYDRO Series H115i PRO RGB AIO Liquid CPU Cooler,280mm can handle more power hungry CPUs but what ever not going to argue that here.  my dh15 goes straight out the rear and keep my cpu at 149F. i would experiment more with water-cooling but just too expensive for what I need and too much maintainence.

 

and as far as i know i have had no throttling with this air cooler but i do have the largest most overkill heatsink i could buy from a reputable brand that would fit my case i did go water from the Noctua NH-U14H so it was an slight improvement over the u14h but only when idle or light usage.

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, cbigfoot said:

 

well either way supposedly the CORSAIR HYDRO Series H115i PRO RGB AIO Liquid CPU Cooler,280mm can handle more power hungry CPUs but what ever not going to argue that here.  my dh15 goes straight out the rear and keep my cpu at 149F. i would experiment more with water-cooling but just too expensive for what I need and too much maintainence.

I have 1 120mm (first out rad) and a 1 280mm rad setup, however I have no intake, so maybe once I get time to doing the intake I could handle it as the intake fan would be right in front of the reservoir but not 100% sure. I didn't build it with folding in mind just gaming and turn it on for folding events till I get around to finishing it. I'm still leaning to the loop from the AIO causing the issue with thermals unit wise and not the fact it is water cooled because with the AIO the liquid goes in and out of the rad then directly back to the unit vs a custom loop having a reservoir likely near an additional fan which also helps with cooling the liquid, plus the longer travel times for the fluid.

 

However yes the cost of Liquid is insane but for maintenance it comes down to how you set up your loop, I have mine set up so I can easily attach a tube and drain it same with filling, while most people don't think about such things. Plus the case matters and may need to buy a new one just to do, the fact you knew about these things is good, just don't hate water because AIOs in general suck.

 

Later today I might just test out my loop and see w/o the gpu running how well it can handle my CPU under full load. I'm using 3 Corsair QL fans that push about 50 CFM ea, which I kind of wished was more but oh well. If it throttles my 3800x then water isn't likely something to use on these CPUs, but if i remember correctly it throttled only after I OC'd it.

[chaozbandit]

2 hours ago, Parideboy said:

Linus even made a video on this

 

This is actually the video that introduced me to LTT lol

 

Lest not forget this gem of a creation

 

 

It's been mentioned before, but this type of compressor obviously isn't ideal for a constant load. However taking a book out of the automotive space, an enthusiast+ loop could take the form of some kind of water-water loop though to be properly utilized would require constant maintenance (i.e. (dry) ice in an expansion tank or chilled water).

 

The complexity to make it feasible long-term is a fun mind game though.

[shaz2sxy]

Currently getting 3.1m ppd on the 3070

 

Going to have to reinstall windows on my main rig then will have the 3070 and 2070 super running. 

 

Lost loads of folding time today. Stupid windows. 

[LAR_Systems]

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

Tho you are assuming the freezer would run 24/7 which isn't known for sure since no one has tried, it could work with the proper setup which requires way too much time to figure out the layout to make it worth while, which not even LTT would do, they would just buy a freezer dump ice in throw tubing around the ice and call it a failure because of time constraints. I'm not suggesting throwing the computer into the freezer itself either (as mentioned in the video linked above) and one could also throw the loop threw a rad or an extended loop before entering giving a "passive" cooling effect, which in its self depending on climate might be enough. The key to this working is understanding thermodynamics to some degree, and while a small freezer could work I personally wouldn't suggest using one as bigger is better in this case, plus in order for it to work right everything would need to be properly positioned and the freezer at the right temperature (not too cold causing ice to form in the tubes and not too warm causing ice to melt defeating the purpose), which is why while I think it is completely possible to pull off w/o killing the freezer, the time it would take isn't worth the hassle. Will such a setup shorten the life of a freezer? Sure, by how much it depends on how one does it and the size of the freezer.

 

This does not need to be tested at length as the "test" is done regularly by normal consumers killing their fridge or freezer by leaving the door slightly open and going away or not noticing for a few days while the compressor runs super hot and the bearings eventually seize.

 

Both fridges and freezers are designed to hit a temp, then hold that temp as a closed system, with the majority of the temp holding being done via insulation and the compressor only coming on for short bursts to maintain that closed system temp.   

 

Common household fridges and freezers are not designed from a duty load perspective to have something warm or hot constantly in the interior, let alone something pumping heat directly or passively in to the cold chamber environment.   The entire point is that everything inside equalizes with to the devices set cold temp as fast as possible to shut off the compressor.   

 

This is why a water chiller pump is different from a fridge or freezer, it has different duty load requirements as it's designed to take in warm constantly and attempt to push out something colder based on it's rating.

 

So if a small break in the door seal on a fridge or freezer can kill a compressor at room temperature, I assure you PC waste heat will.

 

Source, Family business was appliance repair.

 

[Kilrah]

  

3 hours ago, Parideboy said:

Linus even made a video on this

 

This is actually the video that introduced me to LTT lol

They actually just redid a TQ on it a couple of weeks ago

 

 

[shaz2sxy]

I'm back on

 

just reinstalled windows onto my another drive and first thing i installed.

 

1) Chrome

2) Nvidia driver

3) F@H 

 

lol not going to bother installing steam etc yet as was going to do a fresh install of windows when I got my Ryzen 5800x next week.

 

Also only got my 3070 and 2070 super running, and a AMD 5700

couldn't get my 1070ti in my sons PC as his PSU doesnt have enough 6/8pin PSU cables

 

oh well

[FakeNSA]

23 minutes ago, shaz2sxy said:

I'm back on

 

just reinstalled windows onto my another drive and first thing i installed.

 

1) Chrome

2) Nvidia driver

3) F@H 

 

lol not going to bother installing steam etc yet as was going to do a fresh install of windows when I got my Ryzen 5800x next week.

 

Also only got my 3070 and 2070 super running, and a AMD 5700

couldn't get my 1070ti in my sons PC as his PSU doesnt have enough 6/8pin PSU cables

 

oh well

I'll take that card off your hands! Even fold under your ID at least half of the time with it.

 

[cbigfoot]

25 minutes ago, FakeNSA said:

I'll take that card off your hands! Even fold under your ID at least half of the time with it.

 

too bad it would cost as much as the cards worth to get it to the usofa

 

EDIT: NVM DAM they still fetch $400-$500 new WTH

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, chaozbandit said:

It's been mentioned before, but this type of compressor obviously isn't ideal for a constant load. However taking a book out of the automotive space, an enthusiast+ loop could take the form of some kind of water-water loop though to be properly utilized would require constant maintenance (i.e. (dry) ice in an expansion tank or chilled water).

 

The complexity to make it feasible long-term is a fun mind game though.

When I first brought it up I thought (before posting) you could just take the guts out till I remembered that chest freezers are the pinnacle of chilling stuff cheaply and effectively. Chest freezers are far better than fridges/air conditioners and if done right I highly doubt it would need to be on 24/7 as many have assumed.

 

1 hour ago, LAR_Systems said:

 

This does not need to be tested at length as the "test" is done regularly by normal consumers killing their fridge or freezer by leaving the door slightly open and going away or not noticing for a few days while the compressor runs super hot and the bearings eventually seize.

 

Both fridges and freezers are designed to hit a temp, then hold that temp as a closed system, with the majority of the temp holding being done via insulation and the compressor only coming on for short bursts to maintain that closed system temp.   

 

Common household fridges and freezers are not designed from a duty load perspective to have something warm or hot constantly in the interior, let alone something pumping heat directly or passively in to the cold chamber environment.   The entire point is that everything inside equalizes with to the devices set cold temp as fast as possible to shut off the compressor.   

 

This is why a water chiller pump is different from a fridge or freezer, it has different duty load requirements as it's designed to take in warm constantly and attempt to push out something colder based on it's rating.

 

So if a small break in the door seal on a fridge or freezer can kill a compressor at room temperature, I assure you PC waste heat will.

 

Source, Family business was appliance repair.

 

You're assuming because one thing happens the other has to be true as well. Which is true if done wrong, like I said a problem can be overcome if one is willing enough. Your example of devices failing due to airflow not liquid, and a closed sourced one, now if the liquid passing threw is hot then yes I can see it failing, however in order for that to happen you would have to foolishly insulate the tube entering the freezer.

 

That is why I stated there is a lot of work involved in order for it to work, I could be wrong but if my understanding of how heat transfer works with fluid flow then it will work if done right, it shouldn't be much different to putting in items and opening up the freezer several times a day, it'll be on more frequently but not 24/7. Maybe the tubes need to be insulated in the freezer, maybe the tubes need to be split and spread across threw out the freezer (likely) to prevent hot spots from forming, I'll say it again no problem is too hard if you are willing to put the time in.

 

An air conditioner can run 24/7 which is why Linus never had an issue, same with a water chiller as the video I showed, however they where directly pouring in hot liquid into it my suggestion doesn't do that because liquid will naturally lose heat when traveling thanks to how thermodynamics works, plus you could create a reservoir before entering, there are many many many many (can keep going) ways to do it and maybe only one is right, and yes not doing it at all could be one. If I had a freezer not in use I would try it, but I don't so I can't. Remember all I need is for it to work 1 time out of thousands of tries to be right and to make you wrong, potentially incredibly hard isn't impossible.

 

Also remember that more packed the freezer is the better it is at keeping things cold and for longer esp in power outages, which is why you buy according to your needs not buy the biggest because it's the cheapest per sqft. I know that and therefore knowing that I would use it to my advantage, which is why I can say I'm not wrong, it comes down to doing it right. Obviously there is a thermal threshold when it stops working in such manner, and I personally don't know that number because I haven't bothered doing the math. Maybe the solution is filling up the freezer with water letting it freeze over time slowly with the tubes already in place, idk, and yes one could do that if they really wanted too to a freezer.

 

My personal chest freezers seal sucks and leaks out cold air and I've personally left it open for several hours removing ice build up, but wait whats this? It's not dead, and over 12 years old? wonder why that could be Reality is chest freezers are still better than fridges, which is why I suggested using one obviously when you have a big hole in a cool area open up from a side and not the top you're going to lose tons of precious cold air forcing the unit to work harder. Equally I don't trust appliance repair shops most are scammers and both my freezer and fridge are proof of claims being wrong about how the pumps will fail "just because you left the doors open". They do fail don't get me wrong but not as bad as you make it out to be, if you left the door open for a week yes expect it to be dead, but for a day or 2? No, unless it's a old or defective unit, but expect all food to be garbage. The way I see it working should work because the water entering isn't boiling hot and doesn't stay for too long, consistent flow can cause a issue but I have my doubts, and if it does there's ways of fixing it.

 

So once again, no problem is impossible or too hard if one is willing to put the time and effort into it. You keep saying no because of an industry no one should trust, and even if LTT did a video tomorrow to show it "won't" work, think how many times have they been wrong about stuff? This could be one, did they fill it right did they do this or that right, too many variables to trust a single Youtube video.

[FakeNSA]

15 minutes ago, cbigfoot said:

too bad it would cost as much as the cards worth to get it to the usofa

 

EDIT: NVM DAM they still fetch $400-$500 new WTH

Yep! Welcome to supply shortages..... In all seriousness, I'm happy with my 1060 (need a mobo/cpu upgrade before GPU).

Good luck getting another folding rig setup tho, if you can!

(Edit: getting it to the US? I thought you were nashville?)