Battlefield V with DXR on tested from Techspot(Hardware Unboxed)

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, RejZoR said:

@CarlBar

Dude, he quoted like 15 of my lines individually. If I quote that and respond to each, it'll be fucking 30 of them. Sorry, just no. Not bothering to respond to a huge ass bag of noodles is not admission of anything. I've responded to all his quotes in one single paragraph.

I quote so many times because I was being specific and thorough in considering your reply.  If the best you can do is put your fingers in your ears then fine, but don't fool yourself into trying to dismiss my reply as a "huge ass bag of noodles" rather than an actual response.

 

[Princess Luna]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Problem is before you had the early higher price card then the cheaper card with similar performance with non critical features removed (less VRAM etc). Now we don't have that, we only have the higher price card.

The RTX 2080 Ti like the GTX 1080 Ti today will eventually be surpassed and become more affordable used so it's not like it'll be impossible to try one out for lots of people.

 

Having it on release really is just a luxury you either can pay or not, might sound selfish but it's part the profit that makes it all possible.

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Other generations that brought in new tech, new node or something else new didn't significantly raise the asking price. Turing didn't bring with it new challenges never faced before to justify the price increase.

Turing is just a refresh, it ain't that distant from polaris over and over, they invested on new technology in an attempt to bring something that made it different and it isn't ready we all get it, but performance we had on pascal still is refired here, there's good reason to get a RTX 2080 over a 1080 Ti if saving is marginal... you get same performance plus fixes on HDR performance penalties and such.

 

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Cost has always been high for Nvidia on their large dies difference now, and for a little while, is AMD has absolutely nothing close enough to the top end performance to require Nvidia to keep competitive pricing. We're in a you either pay up or go without situation and we all know it

This is true to every thing in any market, you want the high end of something you'll pay a lot; buying a Porsche is not like getting a GM.

It is just interesting to me this concept that the best gaming card on the market must be accessible to a high audience price wise, these are very difficult products to make with a lot of cost involved. Don't get me wrong with not wanting competition or what not I'm like every one cheering AMD to succeed with 7nm.
 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

It is what it is but I'm not sure why anyone would actually defend the price increase when there is nothing to justify it. If it were a Titan T then sure were could all assume a cheaper Ti is coming but it's not a Titan T and it is the Ti.

There never was any increase in price because the RTX 2080 Ti is replacing the former TITAN Xp which made no sense in any way at the salty 1200 dollars margin, the 1080 Ti is still here for the same price both new but as mentioned some improvements and refresh alongside the whole Ray Tracing stuff.

 

I think you could have in mind giving an actual reason to buy the last tier product other than marketing with edgy Xp branding is well welcome to plenty of people and nobody truly lost any thing here.

The RTX 2080 Ti actually has the premium extra performance you'd expect paying the premium early access tag. What nVidia really did was give a meaning to that last tier they weirdly had.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Princess Cadence said:

There never was any increase in price because the RTX 2080 Ti is replacing the former TITAN Xp which made no sense in any way at the salty 1200 dollars margin, the 1080 Ti is still here for the same price both new but as mentioned some improvements and refresh alongside the whole Ray Tracing stuff.

Well no that's just a false justification. I know what it's replacing, not the Titan, but it does nothing to fact of what happened.

 

What are the 1080 Ti owners supposed to do? Become Titan owners like before ignoring all the reasons why the Titan's were poor purchases? Not be able to buy 2080 Ti's at all because the Titan's were legitimately too expensive.

 

Like I said it is what it is but it's an unjustified price increase brought about by lack of competition at the high end, Turing does not cost more than Pascal or Maxwell or anything before. This node didn't cost more than the last shrink, not after Volta wore that cost anyway. The technology brought in doesn't cost more to support than any previous new technology.

 

The RTX 2080 Ti increased in price. There is no Titan, it did not replace the Titan. The price increased simple as that. I'm not arguing against the benefits or technology of Turing or RTX, the price simply sucks.

 

Edit:

Btw your arguments or anyone elses would only make sense if it were a Titan, and a cheaper one would come later at some point like before. That's not happening and used cards play no part in this. We've always been able to buy used but that does not excuse the fact the 2080 Ti is a massive MSRP price increase over the 1080 Ti.

 

1 hour ago, Princess Cadence said:

I think you could have in mind giving an actual reason to buy the last tier product other than marketing with edgy Xp branding is well welcome to plenty of people and nobody truly lost any thing here.

Other than every 1080 Ti owner you mean, those people lost out. They lost out their upgrade path. Every Titan Xp owner is fine, they were already happy to pay the higher price. And there is zero evidence the 2080 Ti is ever going to get down to 1080 Ti pricing within it's current generation, the reason why the 1080 Ti exists and comes after the Titan.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, S w a t s o n said:

https://wccftech.com/no-radeon-rx-vega-is-not-running-dxr-with-battlefield-v/

 

hmm

 

Quote

After all, I wasn’t going to just rush over here and slap together an article talking about how awesome this was if I couldn’t get it working myself.

LOL that would be a first.

[Tech Enthusiast]

Sad to see overdone reflections first and not global illumination.

Looking forward to Enlisted which will have other RTX Features, but running at 100fps@4k, demonstrating that not all RT has to butcher FPS.

[CarlBar]

3 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Sad to see overdone reflections first and not global illumination.

Looking forward to Enlisted which will have other RTX Features, but running at 100fps@4k, demonstrating that not all RT has to butcher FPS.

 

Given a 2080Ti can't hit 100FPS 4k without DXR on i don't know why you'd think any game is going to hit 100FPS @4k with it on. That said i'm much more interested in seeing what other implementations look like.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Given a 2080Ti can't hit 100FPS 4k without DXR on i don't know why you'd think any game is going to hit 100FPS @4k with it on. That said i'm much more interested in seeing what other implementations look like.

It's an MMO game so like most of those games optimize for much lower end hardware. It'll likely do it but it's not going to be the ultimate graphical possibility, not something you want to do for an MMO game. 

[RejZoR]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

I quote so many times because I was being specific and thorough in considering your reply.  If the best you can do is put your fingers in your ears then fine, but don't fool yourself into trying to dismiss my reply as a "huge ass bag of noodles" rather than an actual response.

 

I wrote you a summary reply and you keep on bitching. Read it ffs.

[Tech Enthusiast]

5 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

Given a 2080Ti can't hit 100FPS 4k without DXR on i don't know why you'd think any game is going to hit 100FPS @4k with it on. That said i'm much more interested in seeing what other implementations look like.

I believe it, because it is already being done.

Check this video of it. Linked right before the presentation starts, with 4k and 90-130 fps, with global illumination on. No Reflections tho.

 

You can check it out from timestamp 0:00 if you are interested in deatils on how they did it, why, ect.

So yes, RT is more than just reflections and can be used for impressive stuff, without butchering FPS. That is why i am sad to see a game doing the butchering first. Quite sure NVidia is not happy with that either, but it is what it is now.

[xAcid9]

2 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Check this video of it. Linked right before the presentation starts, with 4k and 90-130 fps, with global illumination on. No Reflections tho.

That video is kinda misleading. Ray tracing is expensive, and yet when he switch it on/off there is barely any performance drop. 

[Tech Enthusiast]

Just now, xAcid9 said:

That video is kinda misleading. Ray tracing is expensive, and yet when he switch it on/off there is barely any performance drop. 

Nothing misleading at all. Not all DXR features are as expensive as reflections.

The game shown only includes Global Illumination.

[S w a t s o n]

3 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

That video is kinda misleading. Ray tracing is expensive, and yet when he switch it on/off there is barely any performance drop. 

I have heard of other demos that do that if they just lock it at 30

Edit: Nvm there's a tiny fps counter top left. I think the Metro RTX demo was similar too though so not a surprise to me. Atomic Hearts was noticeable but not choppy

[xAcid9]

45 minutes ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Nothing misleading at all. Not all DXR features are as expensive as reflections.

The game shown only includes Global Illumination.

You know performance tanked even when there is no reflection in BF:V right?
What separate ray traced global illumination compare to regular/traditional global illumination btw? 

[Tech Enthusiast]

35 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

You know performance tanked even when there is no reflection in BF:V right?
What separate ray traced global illumination compare to regular/traditional global illumination btw? 

Actually i did not see any FPS tanking at all in BFV when there was no reflections, nope.

The Videos i saw tried to go to areas without reflections (given BF makes it hard, they really make every damn wood piece reflective,...) and the FPS was well above 100 then.

 

The difference in RT global illumination is realism and ease of implementation.

Yes, you can fake light pretty well. No it won't look natural at all. Good looking != realistic looking.

 

With RT GI you can just put up a light source and "it just works". This is actually the thing leather jacket refered to when he said those words. They got taken out of context a lot, but GI actually IS the context he used the words in. And they fit 100% there. No need to fake lights, fake shadows, or fake whatever needs faking. Illumination will just work realistically out of the box.

And this part of DXR is not very demanding at all from what Enlisted showed as early as 2 days after Nvidia showed us RTX. It does however save a lot of programmer time, by not having to fake so many light sources.

[CarlBar]

4 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

I believe it, because it is already being done.

Check this video of it. Linked right before the presentation starts, with 4k and 90-130 fps, with global illumination on. No Reflections tho.

 

You can check it out from timestamp 0:00 if you are interested in deatils on how they did it, why, ect.

So yes, RT is more than just reflections and can be used for impressive stuff, without butchering FPS. That is why i am sad to see a game doing the butchering first. Quite sure NVidia is not happy with that either, but it is what it is now.

 

No offence but it was obvious the actual in-game simulation rate was severely slowed down. Thats going to have a huge positive effect on how rapidly the elements of the scene changes. and good optimization makes slow rate of change beneficial as there are tricks to cut down the workload. Get this at real time speeds and then were talking.

 

Don't get me wrong i suspect BF V's implementation is really rough, but a 100FPS with RTX on would raise a lot of eyebrows for me @ 4k simply because 100FPS at any real high level of graphical quality in 4K without RTX is hard.

 

31 minutes ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Actually i did not see any FPS tanking at all in BFV when there was no reflections, nope.

The Videos i saw tried to go to areas without reflections (given BF makes it hard, they really make every damn wood piece reflective,...) and the FPS was well above 100 then.

 

The difference in RT global illumination is realism and ease of implementation.

Yes, you can fake light pretty well. No it won't look natural at all. Good looking != realistic looking.

 

With RT GI you can just put up a light source and "it just works". This is actually the thing leather jacket refered to when he said those words. They got taken out of context a lot, but GI actually IS the context he used the words in. And they fit 100% there. No need to fake lights, fake shadows, or fake whatever needs faking. Illumination will just work realistically out of the box.

And this part of DXR is not very demanding at all from what Enlisted showed as early as 2 days after Nvidia showed us RTX. It does however save a lot of programmer time, by not having to fake so many light sources.

 

Reviewers have tested it, the slowdown remains in BF V even in areas with minimal reflections.

[Tech Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Reviewers have tested it, the slowdown remains in BF V even in areas with minimal reflections.

So, how would anything slow whatever down, without being calculated? 

If you think RT just reduces FPS, without doing anything, then i don't really know what to say. I guess you could play around with it in the unreal engine. You can turn on RT there and see if it reduces FPS without adding any RT effects.

 

BF:V has reflections on everything, like really, everything. Stuff reflects off cloths, weapons, everything. It is so much over the top. You can turn every slider far enough right untill no GPU can handle above 5 fps. Not claiming Reflections with RT are not a FPS tanking feature, but you could easily get stable and solid fps with just a little more thought on what objects really need reflections.

 

As far as GI goes: Why would slowing down the game improve fps? It remains frames per second, no matter if you pause after said second, you still have the same number. Unless the engine was tuned to render frames before they are shown of course. Which would be a crazy thing to do, just for a demo.

[Blademaster91]

8 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Reviewers have tested it, the slowdown remains in BF V even in areas with minimal reflections.

The slowdowns and FPS hiccups are there even with RTX off, some Battlefield Youtubers and people in r/Battlefield have been commenting there being weird performance issues even with high end GPU's, and AA being forced on doesn't help.  I think testing for RTX slowdowns isn't going to be totally accurate in BFV until EA makes bug fixes.

[xAcid9]

16 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Actually i did not see any FPS tanking at all in BFV when there was no reflections, nope.

The Videos i saw tried to go to areas without reflections (given BF makes it hard, they really make every damn wood piece reflective,...) and the FPS was well above 100 then.

 

The difference in RT global illumination is realism and ease of implementation.

Yes, you can fake light pretty well. No it won't look natural at all. Good looking != realistic looking.

 

With RT GI you can just put up a light source and "it just works". This is actually the thing leather jacket refered to when he said those words. They got taken out of context a lot, but GI actually IS the context he used the words in. And they fit 100% there. No need to fake lights, fake shadows, or fake whatever needs faking. Illumination will just work realistically out of the box.

And this part of DXR is not very demanding at all from what Enlisted showed as early as 2 days after Nvidia showed us RTX. It does however save a lot of programmer time, by not having to fake so many light sources.

I guess grass also have reflection? lel 

It just work but not without performance hit. Shadow and ambient occlusion is just as expensive as reflection, maybe not so much but it still expensive. Remember Shadow Of Tomb Raider RTX video? I don't see any reflection in there but the FPS is really low.

 

What Gaijin showed us was just a tech demo of RTX/DXR global illumination. It probably just a single building with a single light source. Not a full 4x4 km² map +  physic and shits.

 

 

 

[mr moose]

19 hours ago, RejZoR said:

I wrote you a summary reply and you keep on bitching. Read it ffs.

I did read it, you haven't made a compelling argument for you points.

 

I have linked to articles and even earlier a video explaining why your points are only valid as your opinions and not reflective of What RTX is to everyone else.

 

If you wish to reduce this discussion to derisory accusations of bitching and posting nonsense rather than actually addressing what I have stated,  then I'm afraid that says more about your argument than it does about the RTX or my "bitching".

[RejZoR]

37 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I did read it, you haven't made a compelling argument for you points.

 

I have linked to articles and even earlier a video explaining why your points are only valid as your opinions and not reflective of What RTX is to everyone else.

 

If you wish to reduce this discussion to derisory accusations of bitching and posting nonsense rather than actually addressing what I have stated,  then I'm afraid that says more about your argument than it does about the RTX or my "bitching".

Which part of "THE CARD IS STUPID EXPENSIVE, ISN'T REALLY ALL THAT FASTER IN RASTERIZED RENDERING, IS STILL REALLY SLOW AT RAY TRACING, HAS 1 GAME AVAILABLE WITH ONLY PARTIAL RTX AFTER MONTHS OF WAITING AND TOTAL 9 PLANNED SOMEDAY" don't you understand? Oh and they are a ticking bomb as well apparently because if you bought Founders Edition or one based on its reference design, chances are it'll go in flames. Come on dude, don't act like you're stupid...

 

Literally the only reason one would want to buy one is because it's the fastest single card for RASTERIZATION on the market. Not by much, but it's the fastest. Which puts that small 1% of 4K gamers as potential buyers who don't care about price. Meaning adoption of RTX will take forever because devs don't have incentive to spend tons of extra work for that 1% of people that will actually have ray tracing capable cards. That's just the reality of it and you should be aware of it unless you just dropped on the graphic cards scene and you don't know any of the past...

 

RTX will get traction when even low and mid end cards can use it, and not at 600€ price tag... Ray tracing is cool and there is no doubt it'll one day become a default standard for reflections and stuff, but that standard won't be now. Expect it to gain traction with RTX 4060 cards when they come out... RTX 3060 just won't be it yet when it comes sometime in following 1-2 years.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

On 11/17/2018 at 12:39 PM, RejZoR said:

I also know what can be done using rasterization that looks identical to 99% of people and runs 5x faster.

just because you can fake it old techniques to simulate doesn't doesn't mean we should still be doing the same old trick in 2018, you can fake it for the most part but it simply is never realistic as what ray tracing would do, even if they faked it everywhere it only gonna get more heavy if they did it for all or they simply get it wrong and more time consuming, sure hoicking up people with ape costumes would also be faster for making a planet of the apes movie but we'd still be there if no one had went through such troubles to mocap to make the last few planet of the apes movie. 

you want games to look like 2014 20 years from now or do you want it to improve upon in the coming years? ray tracing is just a part of it. it always is gonna be more demanding as more power full hardware is needed in the beginning. doesn't mean you have to scrap ray tracing altigether. same thing happened when mantal ray and Vray were introduced.

[williamcll]

Gonna be interested in how UE games like unreal tournament and PUBG will run DXR

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

just because you can fake it old techniques to simulate doesn't doesn't mean we should still be doing the same old trick in 2018, you can fake it for the most part but it simply is never realistic as what ray tracing would do, even if they faked it everywhere it only gonna get more heavy if they did it for all or they simply get it wrong and more time consuming, sure hoicking up people with ape costumes would also be faster for making a planet of the apes movie but we'd still be there if no one had went through such troubles to mocap to make the last few planet of the apes movie. 

you want games to look like 2014 20 years from now or do you want it to improve upon in the coming years? ray tracing is just a part of it. it always is gonna be more demanding as more power full hardware is needed in the beginning. doesn't mean you have to scrap ray tracing altigether. same thing happened when mantal ray and Vray were introduced.

I never said ray tracing is stupid or pointless. It just happens that the statement is correct for this moment. Ray tracing is CURRENTLY a pointless gimmick. Hardware, despite being capable of doing it is just not fast enough to be doing it at any acceptable rate. The way top of the line 1200€ card runs it now is what one would expect from a 400€ graphic card...

 

And yeah, I'd rather play a game with "faked" effects that runs at basically locked 144fps than have real effects that run like a turd down a mild hill... Reason for this being the fact that "faked" effects are so convincing 90% of people wouldn't even be able to tell a difference. All while running 5x faster. Because in all honesty, I haven't seen anything really jaw dropping that would make me think otherwise. Ray tracing in its current form hasn't shown me anything really convincing. I've seen perspective correct soft shadows. I've seen real time reflections. Something as basic as Unreal Engine 3.x does all that. UE4 even more convincingly. So, yeah, fake it till we can actually run it across all cards, making it a default technique. Until then, faked ones all the way.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Which part of "THE CARD IS STUPID EXPENSIVE, ISN'T REALLY ALL THAT FASTER IN RASTERIZED RENDERING, IS STILL REALLY SLOW AT RAY TRACING, HAS 1 GAME AVAILABLE WITH ONLY PARTIAL RTX AFTER MONTHS OF WAITING AND TOTAL 9 PLANNED SOMEDAY" don't you understand?

You know that yelling doesn't suddenly make your opinions apply to everyone else.

 

1. Stupid expensive is up to the individual buying, it doesn't apply to everyone.

2. It is a new technology so how fast it goes at first is not an indication of how well it will perform with time.   You know that many new technologies were shit on their first attempt right?

3. 1 game doesn't mean it is slow for adoption.   Given most new techs take about 2 years before they are properly adopted in games came back to me in 1 years time,  if there is still 1 game, then we can call it slow adoption. But as it stands There are already 11 confirmed titles that will release with it and 25 titles that will release with DLSS support.  So Stop with the BS about it not being adopted, it is actually receiving way more attention from games devs and animators than anything has prior.

 

I understand very well,  it seems you are lacking the ability to properly understand how technology comes to be a thing especially considering I linked to two articles explaining why this is such a big thing and you still stick to "1 title" as if that means something.

Quote

Oh and they are a ticking bomb as well apparently because if you bought Founders Edition or one based on its reference design, chances are it'll go in flames. Come on dude, don't act like you're stupid...

Again with the insults, have you got the numbers to make your claims about them being "time bombs" valid,  or are you just calling me stupid while trying to claim the whole card is shit because a few had issues?   I would like to see how many cards have failed, if its less than 15% of all sold then you must call every AMD card a "ticking time bomb" because currently they have the highest number of faults.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Video-Card-Failure-Rates-by-Generation-563/

 

Quote

Literally the only reason one would want to buy one is because it's the fastest single card for RASTERIZATION on the market. Not by much, but it's the fastest. Which puts that small 1% of 4K gamers as potential buyers who don't care about price. Meaning adoption of RTX will take forever because devs don't have incentive to spend tons of extra work for that 1% of people that will actually have ray tracing capable cards. That's just the reality of it and you should be aware of it unless you just dropped on the graphic cards scene and you don't know any of the past...

Again you are trying to project your own opinions onto others.  It has been selling very well and game devs are all over RTX.  Why you think that is not happening when it clearly is is just beyond logic.

 

Quote

RTX will get traction when even low and mid end cards can use it, and not at 600€ price tag... Ray tracing is cool and there is no doubt it'll one day become a default standard for reflections and stuff, but that standard won't be now. Expect it to gain traction with RTX 4060 cards when they come out... RTX 3060 just won't be it yet when it comes sometime in following 1-2 years.

It's getting traction now,  as soon as DXR was released so was the first title, with 11 pegged and another 25 to use DLSS in the next 12 months that's not slow take off, that's astounding interest and traction for any tech we've seen. 

 

If RT flunks and doesn't turn out to be any good (for any reason) there is no way you can determine that now with the information we have.   In fact the only logical conclusion to draw form the information we have is that it has the best chance of surviving due to the amount of interest and genuine excitement it has aroused in game devs.

[asus killer]

2 hours ago, williamcll said:

Gonna be interested in how ... PUBG will run DXR

4k @ - 10fps