Battlefield V with DXR on tested from Techspot(Hardware Unboxed)

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

I wouldn't call that rejecting,  they still sold out in many places including pre order.  But it does strike me as strange they are selling so many 1080ti's when everyone keeps arguing the 1060 is the best seller and the market sweet spot. 

Those are GN affiliate only sales, the numbers are like that because they are GN viewers who took the advice of wait don't pre-order then took the information after release in that the 1080 TI's were the best high end option. RTX 2080 Ti is priced too high, actual last gen Titan owners are very small. Some will make the step up in price, some will not.

[Carclis]

8 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Don't mistake herd mentality for inform,med purchasing. Most reviewers really panned the RTX launch so a lot of people took that as gospel truth and are buying based on that.

Most reviewers really panned the 9900k at launch too and yet we see it selling out everywhere. I'm not quite sure I'd be quick to point to herd mentality being the cause. The only commonality between the 2080ti and 9900k is that they are both the top tier product and bring actual new levels of performance, even if the 9900k is pushing placebo territory.

[CarlBar]

55 minutes ago, Carclis said:

Most reviewers really panned the 9900k at launch too and yet we see it selling out everywhere. I'm not quite sure I'd be quick to point to herd mentality being the cause. The only commonality between the 2080ti and 9900k is that they are both the top tier product and bring actual new levels of performance, even if the 9900k is pushing placebo territory.

 

2080Ti's are also sold out pretty much everywhere too.

[asus killer]

Watching the tech jesus video on B5 and RTX i cant stop laughing about how this tech is at this moment so not ready. 

And to imagine the amounts of money people pay for this cards, really this is just silly. 

[Humbug]

16 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Watching the tech jesus video on B5 and RTX i cant stop laughing about how this tech is at this moment so not ready. 

And to imagine the amounts of money people pay for this cards, really this is just silly. 

I can't see anybody buying it for the RTX features. Activating a feature so resource intensive that it brings you down to 1080p 60fps (which is what my R9 290 still does no problem) even after spending more than $1000 seems stupid. Unless it truly creates a night and day difference in image quality, which we have seen it does not. We could have done better spending those computational resources elsewhere.

 

However if you turn off the RTX features then the RTX 2080ti is the fastest gaming GPU on the planet when talking about 4K performance or even 1440p high framerate performance. For somebody who has the money and wants the absolute best performance I can see them wanting to spend money on this for traditional performance.

 

Nvidia screwed up the marketing and strategy. They should have used Ray Tracing as a bonus feature. e.g. "this is the fastest gaming GPU ever and as a bonus our partners games have implemented this feature and it gives you a glimpse into the future of rendering".

 

RTX should not have been the headline feature. Because they priced it so high they knew that there was no price/perf gain from previous gen GTX 1070, Vega 56 etc. So they tried to steer the conversation away from that by using a gimmick.

[RejZoR]

Everyone rushing with "but rayh trahcing is so realz". I bet 90% of people couldn't tell a difference between a modern rasterized reflection (muh fake) and ray traced reflection (muh realz). So, why bother with ray tracing before it's ACTUALLY ready? Like, does anyone remember when Pixel Shaders came out? It was about as huge thing as ray tracing. It was and it wasn't. The difference was, it ran like crap on low end cards and VERY acceptable on high end ones. There were some exceptions like NVIDIA's low ends not having pixel shaders at all (GeForce 4 MX), but that was NVIDIA only. AMD had them even on lowest spec cards. Besides, there was also GeForce 3 Ti200 and GeForce 4 Ti4200 which was perfectly affordable and also usable. Now, you buy a 4 digit RTX 2080Ti and it's barely playable. It just doesn't compute. Literally.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Nvidia screwed up the marketing and strategy. They should have used Ray Tracing as a bonus feature. e.g. "this is the fastest gaming GPU ever and as a bonus our partners games have implemented this feature and it gives you a glimpse into the future of rendering".

I get the feeling even if they had done that (which I agree is more accurate),  there would still be people ignoring it simply to take a piss on nvidia

 

4 minutes ago, Humbug said:

RTX should not have been the headline feature. Because they priced it so high they knew that there was no price/perf gain from previous gen GTX 1070, Vega 56 etc. So they tried to steer the conversation away from that by using a gimmick.

All RTX shit aside, they can charge that much because:

 

1. they have no competition to make them a little more competitive with their pricing

2. It is the best performing and law of diminishing returns means little after the 1060/70 anyway

3. The market will pay it.  Game devs charge for DLC, loot boxes, half finished content, pre release content etc etc etc because the market will pay for it.

 

Whether we like it or not,  value is determine by the highest bidder.

[asus killer]

2 hours ago, Humbug said:

I can't see anybody buying it for the RTX features. Activating a feature so resource intensive that it brings you down to 1080p 60fps (which is what my R9 290 still does no problem) even after spending more than $1000 seems stupid. Unless it truly creates a night and day difference in image quality, which we have seen it does not. We could have done better spending those computational resources elsewhere.

 

However if you turn off the RTX features then the RTX 2080ti is the fastest gaming GPU on the planet when talking about 4K performance or even 1440p high framerate performance. For somebody who has the money and wants the absolute best performance I can see them wanting to spend money on this for traditional performance.

 

Nvidia screwed up the marketing and strategy. They should have used Ray Tracing as a bonus feature. e.g. "this is the fastest gaming GPU ever and as a bonus our partners games have implemented this feature and it gives you a glimpse into the future of rendering".

 

RTX should not have been the headline feature. Because they priced it so high they knew that there was no price/perf gain from previous gen GTX 1070, Vega 56 etc. So they tried to steer the conversation away from that by using a gimmick.

sure 2080ti is the fastest card, it's also a problematic card and a card that doesn't justify the price performance difference over a 1080ti. Overpriced, buggy and the new features are at best a nice gimmick. 

Like Linus usually says If you have lots of money to spend, sure, if not this makes no sense at all. And pushing this on a fps game is just stupid like Steve said, this game is all about fps and competitive gaming, not looking at the reflection on someones eyes.

 

Like many have warned, this will be great in a couple of years

[CarlBar]

5 hours ago, asus killer said:

sure 2080ti is the fastest card, it's also a problematic card and a card that doesn't justify the price performance difference over a 1080ti. Overpriced, buggy and the new features are at best a nice gimmick. 

Like Linus usually says If you have lots of money to spend, sure, if not this makes no sense at all. And pushing this on a fps game is just stupid like Steve said, this game is all about fps and competitive gaming, not looking at the reflection on someones eyes.

 

Like many have warned, this will be great in a couple of years

 

Sure, if your upgrading from a 1080ti, or m9st 10xx series cards. Going from an older card however the rtx cards are pretty ok.

 

Typing from phone so I'll get more in depth later.

[CTR640]

*Purchase 2080Ti*

*Screams and screech abnoxiously and yell "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG RTX2080Ti RTX RTX REEEEEEEEE TREEEEEEEEEEECING"

*Installs RTX2080Ti with in completely silence! Every single ant and fly will meet my super death ray laser eyes!*

*Buys BFV with everything in it, including Season Pass, Deluxe, Omega, Supreme, Ultra and bought all the lootboxes and only God knows what are in those lootboxes*

*BFV finally installed and here is the moment!!!!!!1!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG*

*Windows10 automatic updates interrupts: reaction:

Spoiler

*Finally everything installed and now BFV started! But internet connection got cut off and checks the router why*

*Cat dropped the router!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grilled the cat with mysuper  death ray lazer!

*Ugh, finally everything started up and connection online*

*Immediatley enables ray tracing and everything on max and 4K but hey, it's a freaking the most expensive GPU anyway, right, right?!*

*Gets eye cancer because 0.00005FPS*

*Reduced the resolution to 1440p, still low. Screech abnoxiously WHY IS IT SO SLOW AND MUCH STUTTER??????*

*reduced the resolution to 1080p but almost 60FPS but in crowded places it gets under 60FPS OMG WTF WHY?????? I DOWNGRADED FROM DIAMOND TO TURD????*

*Finally disabled ray tracing and immediatly 4K60 or 1440p144*

*Realises nVidia tricked me....and made me sold my left testicle, one kidney, half of my liver, even sacrificed my first-born aside sold my soul and $1400....*

*RTX2080Ti stopped working and have to be RMA, reaction:

Spoiler

 

[pas008]

this is fun reading all the negative nancy posts

love the idea people have that tech doesnt have steps and progression and early adopter fees at times

 

I love listening about fps and resolution is performance but details inside those arent performance

 

like I said in another post

visuals is performance for starters

maybe someone should look at what the definition of performance is

or should we all start playing 8bit nintendo games cause we get 9000 fps

 

its funny people dont understand the work that devs go into shading and reflections

yes its tasking work and consumes time away from gameplay/story

this is a tool like gameworks to make shit easier and hopefully better looking for them  but isnt proprietary

 

please negative nancys continue to post how you do not want change and to move forward

 

fyi

we have had 1200 dollar card for 2 yrs 1000 dollar card for 6yrs

so dont give me whine on price because then i should be whining I dont have an affordable 2018 lambo/condo/f350/etc ( cause I could continue to post many fucking overpriced items that isnt for everyone here)

[CarlBar]

7 hours ago, asus killer said:

sure 2080ti is the fastest card, it's also a problematic card and a card that doesn't justify the price performance difference over a 1080ti. Overpriced, buggy and the new features are at best a nice gimmick. 

Like Linus usually says If you have lots of money to spend, sure, if not this makes no sense at all. And pushing this on a fps game is just stupid like Steve said, this game is all about fps and competitive gaming, not looking at the reflection on someones eyes.

 

Like many have warned, this will be great in a couple of years

 

As i pointed out from my phone earlier, weather the 2080Ti, or even 2080 make sense in respect to the 1080Ti for existing 1080Ti owners isn't the only metric.

 

For people who are doing a once every several years upgrade right now the RTX series cards make a lot of sense. Their price t performance is solid for top end products.

 

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Everyone rushing with "but rayh trahcing is so realz". I bet 90% of people couldn't tell a difference between a modern rasterized reflection (muh fake) and ray traced reflection (muh realz). So, why bother with ray tracing before it's ACTUALLY ready? Like, does anyone remember when Pixel Shaders came out? It was about as huge thing as ray tracing. It was and it wasn't. The difference was, it ran like crap on low end cards and VERY acceptable on high end ones. There were some exceptions like NVIDIA's low ends not having pixel shaders at all (GeForce 4 MX), but that was NVIDIA only. AMD had them even on lowest spec cards. Besides, there was also GeForce 3 Ti200 and GeForce 4 Ti4200 which was perfectly affordable and also usable. Now, you buy a 4 digit RTX 2080Ti and it's barely playable. It just doesn't compute. Literally.

 

Ray Tracing can do a lot more than reflections. On top of which it appears BFV's DSR is even more buggy than anyone realised, Gamers Nexus did a video on it yesterday and the number of missing or disappearing reflections that shouldn't have been missing or disappearing was really high. But someone posted the Gaijin video earlier, i might have major doubts about the frame rates reported and i suspect their RTX off was also with standard lighting off, but it does show RTX lighting in acton and i'm pretty sure that will be noticable.

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, pas008 said:

we have had 1200 dollar card for 2 yrs 1000 dollar card for 6yrs

so dont give me whine on price because then i should be whining I dont have an affordable 2018 lambo/condo/f350/etc ( cause I could continue to post many fucking overpriced items that isnt for everyone here)

No, you and everyone else is still ignoring the issue people are pointing to. Early adopter fee is fine, that used to be the Titan card. There is no Titan card now and don't give me the 2080 Ti is now the Titan line because that is such a flawed reason. The Titan this time round simply does not exist or does not exist yet, which would mean that it will cost more.

 

So the issue is for those that want the high end experience, that waited for the 1080 Ti's of the past, will never have that option.

 

The 2080 Ti is already at the reduced TU102 die configuration, reduced ROPs and memory, that is done to lower the cost of the card compared to the Titan. There is going to be no cheaper card so it's no longer an early adopter fee it is a price increase for the 2080 Ti over the 1080 Ti. The only way the 2080 Ti is going to get cheaper is if Nvidia reduces the MSRP, it getting down to near 1080 Ti prices when that type of card would come out is nothing but a fantasy.

 

So please if you want to give a counter argument make it an actually good one, with sound reasoning, not the old "LOL other stuff costs more". Because yes expensive stuff does exist but at least cheaper options exist unlike here.

 

Edit:

And to make it abundantly clear this is purely a criticism of the 2080 Ti and it's price, the technology does not matter and is irrelevant.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No, you and everyone else is still ignoring the issue people are pointing to. Early adopter fee is fine, that used to be the Titan card. There is no Titan card now and don't give me the 2080 Ti is now the Titan line because that is such a flawed reason. The Titan this time round simply does not exist or does not exist yet, which would mean that it will cost more.

 

So the issue is for those that want the high end experience, that waited for the 1080 Ti's of the past, will never have that option.

 

The 2080 Ti is already at the reduced TU102 die configuration, reduced ROPs and memory, that is done to lower the cost of the card compared to the Titan. There is going to be no cheaper card so it's no longer an early adopter fee it is a price increase for the 2080 Ti over the 1080 Ti. The only way the 2080 Ti is going to get cheaper is if Nvidia reduces the MSRP, it getting down to near 1080 Ti prices when that type of card would come out is nothing but a fantasy.

 

So please if you want to give a counter argument make it an actually good one, with sound reasoning, not the old "LOL other stuff costs more".

Titan is also a dying market for nvidia when selling to gamers.  They haven't been worthwhile for a few years now so it makes sense that Nvidia would want to push something else into that price ( read: profit)  bracket and try to recapture that market.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Titan is also a dying market for nvidia when selling to gamers.  They haven't been worthwhile for a few years now so it makes sense that Nvidia would want to push something else into that price ( read: profit)  bracket and try to recapture that market.

It's dying due to it's cost and there being a cheaper option.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's dying due to it's cost and there being a cheaper option.

And now the cheaper option doesn't perform as well.

 

EDIT: if nvidia want to regain the Titan market, they need to avoid the reputation the titan now has for being a poor gaming choice, have the top card perform better than the 2080ri and have the 2080ti perform faster than the 1080ti.   That pretty hard to do without gimping what they have or finding more power than the 2080ti so they can have a titan replacement.  Or they do what they did, make the 2080ti the biggest performer and charge like a titan.

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And now the cheaper option doesn't perform as well.

No there is no cheaper option. Titan, expensive option. xx80 Ti, cheaper option. Guess what doesn't exist now.

 

If the FE price had been $999, which is still a price increase, it wouldn't nearly have been so bad. People would of course still complain but the entire range went up in price, the 2080 Ti by the most.

 

Nvidia "solved" the problem you pointed to by removing the Titan, creating the already cut down die for the 2080 Ti, released that card on launch instead of the 6 month ish delay because there is no Titan but now at the Titan price.

 

This is why the 2080 Ti is the Titan arguement is so flawed, it's not a Titan die configuration and if one were to exist then it would be more than the 2080 Ti making it around the $1500 MSRP mark.

 

I'm open to Nvidia needing to increase prices because the dies are bigger this time around, the market is already inflated so there is not much they can do but specifically the 2080 Ti, come on the reality is right there to see. It costs way more and the Titan does not exist.

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Or they do what they did, make the 2080ti the biggest performer and charge like a titan.

Or make the 2080 Ti the biggest performer and not charge like a Titan. It's not a damn Titan die, if it were fine.

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Or make the 2080 Ti the biggest performer and not charge like a Titan. It's not a damn Titan die, if it were fine.

It's not a titan die, because unless something has changed dramatically the titan die did nothing for games.  I'm looking at this purely from a marketing perspective, titan now has a bad name for gaming, the titan specific hardware added nothing.  Nvidia really has limited options if they  want that top end  titan money again from the gaming segment.

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's not a titan die, because unless something has changed dramatically the titan die did nothing for games.  I'm looking at this purely from a marketing perspective, titan now has a bad name for gaming, the titan specific hardware added nothing.  Nvidia really has limited options if they  want that top end  titan money again from the gaming segment.

Correct it didn't bring much and legitimately cost more to make because you need more of the die functional and was a higher bin, a cheaper option focused for games is created that cuts out small portions that are not required. The Titan Xp is a rarity in that Nvidia released an updated Titan with no disabled SMs that would normally allow for better yields, that die was across the board higher configuration than the 1080 Ti die and the older Titan X (Pascal).

 

And for the last part that is exactly the problem, Nvidia wanting to charge Titan prices for something that is not a Titan, removing cheaper previous alternatives. Nothing but a massive price hike and the idea that Nvidia needs such an expensive card is a ridiculous notion, they already make excessively large amounts of money they do not need to charge that they want to and know they can because what other option is there, nothing.

 

What I do not understand is why it is so offensive to point out the the 2080 Ti was a huge price increase with little to no justification. All I've heard is "It's a Titan", not it isn't, "Other things exist that are expensive", irrelevant, "New technology costs money", has always been true so also irrelevant. The only legitimate defense I've heard for a price increase is the one I raised myself ages ago, the die size is a significant amount more and I still don't think it warrants the price it's at.

[pas008]

49 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No, you and everyone else is still ignoring the issue people are pointing to. Early adopter fee is fine, that used to be the Titan card. There is no Titan card now and don't give me the 2080 Ti is now the Titan line because that is such a flawed reason. The Titan this time round simply does not exist or does not exist yet, which would mean that it will cost more.

 

So the issue is for those that want the high end experience, that waited for the 1080 Ti's of the past, will never have that option.

 

The 2080 Ti is already at the reduced TU102 die configuration, reduced ROPs and memory, that is done to lower the cost of the card compared to the Titan. There is going to be no cheaper card so it's no longer an early adopter fee it is a price increase for the 2080 Ti over the 1080 Ti. The only way the 2080 Ti is going to get cheaper is if Nvidia reduces the MSRP, it getting down to near 1080 Ti prices when that type of card would come out is nothing but a fantasy.

 

So please if you want to give a counter argument make it an actually good one, with sound reasoning, not the old "LOL other stuff costs more". Because yes expensive stuff does exist but at least cheaper options exist unlike here.

 

Edit:

And to make it abundantly clear this is purely a criticism of the 2080 Ti and it's price, the technology does not matter and is irrelevant.

price brackets are price brackets plain and simple

I dont care what line up what names are given

and if something else comes in and replaces it or new brackets created or competition gets here so be it

 

dont tell me nvidia does not know the market(pricing/frequent replacements/etc) considering they sold the titans and those sold out many times, they seen the prices non miners paid during the scarce, they know what they can do right now with NO competition even close

just like phone prices increasing, gpus are too

[CarlBar]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Correct it didn't bring much and legitimately cost more to make because you need more of the die functional and was a higher bin, a cheaper option focused for games is created that cuts out small portions that are not required. The Titan Xp is a rarity in that Nvidia released an updated Titan with no disabled SMs that would normally allow for better yields, that die was across the board higher configuration than the 1080 Ti die and the older Titan X (Pascal).

 

And for the last part that is exactly the problem, Nvidia wanting to charge Titan prices for something that is not a Titan, removing cheaper previous alternatives. Nothing but a massive price hike and the idea that Nvidia needs such an expensive card is a ridiculous notion, they already make excessively large amounts of money they do not need to charge that they want to and know they can because what other option is there, nothing.

 

What I do not understand is why it is so offensive to point out the the 2080 Ti was a huge price increase with little to no justification. All I've heard is "It's a Titan", not it isn't, "Other things exist that are expensive", irrelevant, "New technology costs money", has always been true so also irrelevant. The only legitimate defense I've heard for a price increase is the one I raised myself ages ago, the die size is a significant amount more and I still don't think it warrants the price it's at.

 

The justification for the price increase is that it's the best performing card on the market for gaming. You know the normal justification for somthing being the most expensive in it's bracket, performance.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, pas008 said:

price brackets are price brackets plain and simple

I dont care what line up what names are given

and if something else comes in and replaces it or new brackets created or competition gets here so be it

 

dont tell me nvidia does not know the market(pricing/frequent replacements/etc) considering they sold the titans and those sold out many times, they seen the prices non miners paid during the scarce, they know what they can do right now with NO competition even close

just like phone prices increasing, gpus are too

This isn't a counter argument to Nvidia is charging more for the 2080 Ti for no other reason than because they can, if you don't care about prices getting raised for no actual good reason that's fine but I do. What I'm interested in is people's defense of the raise if they wish to do so, the why not your willingness to accept it because that no one can debate.

 

Either you're agreeing that it's a price increase and you don't care, I think you should but you are free to think what you like, or you think there is an actual justification for the price increase and if it's that I would like to hear it.

 

As a starter if it's possible to find out how much the GP102 die costs and how much the TU102 die costs and that information was to demonstrate why such a large increase was needed, compared to TU104, then you could raise that.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

The justification for the price increase is that it's the best performing card on the market for gaming. You know the normal justification for somthing being the most expensive in it's bracket, performance.

So why is it such a large increase over the price increase for the 2080? What exactly makes it $1200 and not $999? Is this another "because Nvidia can" because I've already said that is not a justification that's just pointing to the price tag and saying "Look it's $1200". I'm perfectly capable of seeing it's price, I sort of have to to disagree with the price.

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

As a starter if it's possible to find out how much the GP102 die costs and how much the TU102 die costs and that information was to demonstrate why such a large increase was needed, compared to TU104, then you could raise that.

Probably won't find that figure that easily, but Turing is a very large GPU. Here's some figures:

• GP102: 12B transistors @ 471mm^2
• GP104: 7.2B transistors @ 314mm^2
• GP106: 4.4B transistors @ 200mm^2
• TU102: 18.6B transistors @ 754mm^2
• TU104: 13.6B transistors @ 545mm^2
• TU106: 10.8B transistors @ 445mm^2

I believe the cost of ICs is by area, because you can only get so many chips out of a silicon ingot. So the TU104 card costing as much as the GP102 card can make a little more sense if we used this logic. But then again, we've had GPUs like GF100 at ~530mm^2.