Posted June 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, leadeater said: What you just said does not line up with what Intel has said, the issue is not that it was water cooled or overclocked so you can immediately drop that. No words out of the presenter's mouth consisted of "overclocked" or "water chiller" and at least one of those was supposed to have been said as per Intel's statement, that's the issue. It doesn't matter how educated I am, what I can see, what I can assume is going on Intel has a duty to state certain bits of information and they failed to do so, and admitted it. Not everyone is me. To be frank as a systems engineer I work on these server platforms every day, I actually am an expert in the socket being used and the CPU architectures that go in them. Me knowing what I know and being educated and experienced doesn't make a misleading presentation not one because I personally have the ability to assess the situation and know what is going on. yes but would you write an article on unannounced product stating 5ghz all core? when in fact you know intel uses turbo boost 3.0 along with seeing sometype of wc in their presesentation? to me once I seen this I thought same thing as few media outlets 28 cores they had running at 5ghz no other info was given but then a shitload of media started copy and pasting intel to release 28 core at 5ghz in q4 you get my pm I dont know if that article I sent you was at all interesting yesterday also @leadeater 5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said: That doesn't change the definition of the term "misleading" rather you like it or not. And, it doesn't make it okay in those scenarios either. its a common practice been since the 50s, its not a final product 4 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said: It doesn't matter that all they said was it had 28 cores. They were deceptive in the fact that they ran it out of spec and with an out-of-the-ordinary cooling device without disclosing this. This is Australian but I cbf finding the American equivalent: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/advertising-promoting-your-business/false-or-misleading-statements Some snippets that Intel failed: "When assessing whether conduct is likely to mislead or deceive, consider whether the overall impression created by the conduct is false or inaccurate." "It is illegal for a business to make statements that are incorrect or likely to create a false impression." "Do not: omit relevant information" "When presenting information about products or services to customers, be sure to: give current and correct information note important limitations or exemptions correct any misunderstandings" they dont have to disclose any info on future products its not even a real product yet lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said: But sir, that's showmanship, not the literal definition of misleading. The levels of Jinx just now with your post is perfect, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said: Which is still misleading and possibly illegal. You can't change the definition of the term misleading just because people do it a lot or because you simply don't care. It's going to be a product that rivals TR2, so misleading people is still a thing here. no its not when its an unreleased unfinished product never seen a company sued for a product that isnt even on the market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, pas008 said: yes but would you write an article on unannounced product stating 5ghz all core? when in fact you know intel uses turbo boost 3.0 along with seeing sometype of wc in their presesentation? to me once I seen this I thought same thing as few media outlets 28 cores they had running at 5ghz no other info was given but then a shitload of media started copy and pasting intel to release 28 core at 5ghz in q4 Yes I would, I would report exactly what Intel said, what they showed and the information in the slides during the presentation. It's not up to me to interpret what Intel actually meant, that's not how news reporting works. And you know why they were reporting that a 28 core 5Ghz CPU was coming in Q4, because that was what was shown and all the information they had. Anything else is assumptions and not news journalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, leadeater said: Yes I would, I would report exactly what Intel said, what they showed and the information in the slides during the presentation. It's not up to me to interpret what Intel actually meant, that's not how news reporting works. And you know why they were reporting that a 28 core 5Ghz CPU was coming in Q4, because that was what was shown and all the information they had. Anything else is assumptions and not news journalism. but only thing they confirmed was 28 core in q4 thats the point media took their twist on it, they all seen a waterblock all seen all cores running, right there should be left as an unknown just like a few media outlets did report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, pas008 said: but only thing they confirmed was 28 core in q4 thats the point media took their twist on it, they all seen a waterblock all seen all cores running, right there should be left as an unknown just like a few media outlets did report No an official Intel employee was standing on stage saying it was running at 5Ghz, now you're just omitting facts of events. And again Intel themselves said they were supposed to say it was overclocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, leadeater said: No an official Intel employee was standing on stage saying it was running at 5Ghz, now you're just omitting facts of events. And again Intel themselves said they were supposed to say it was overclocked. yes I know they did, but doesnt leave out the fact we know intel uses boost tables on all their cpus and many media outlets even saying mce is overclocking and reviews had to be redone because its technically overclocked results yes after most of media started copy and pasting 5ghz 28core I'd clarify too but fact is most of media should have knowledge to read into a waterblock and all core and obviously they can say their mce (meanin all core boost is technically a overclock because it doesnt use stock boost settings) is overclock but they cant interpret this isnt a final product? sry if kinda hard to read have quick meeting with boss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, leadeater said: No an official Intel employee was standing on stage saying it was running at 5Ghz, now you're just omitting facts of events. And again Intel themselves said they were supposed to say it was overclocked. If the tech reporters couldn't figure out that something with a waterblock attached to it wasn't stock, it's their fault for spreading it around that it was stock, not Intel or people that feel like they were mislead. So of course Intel had to be like "uh,hey guys were you even paying attention"? later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said: If the tech reporters couldn't figure out that something with a waterblock attached to it wasn't stock, it's their fault for spreading it around that it was stock, not Intel or people that feel like they were mislead. So of course Intel had to be like "uh,hey guys were you even paying attention"? later on. But it wasn't some simple OC on a normal water cooled setup like a 360mm AIO. it was a 1650w chiller running at -10c liquid temp which was not mentioned. so even publications that thought it was a OC was wrong it was a extreme non standard consumer OC. if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said: If the tech reporters couldn't figure out that something with a waterblock attached to it wasn't stock, it's their fault for spreading it around that it was stock, not Intel or people that feel like they were mislead. It's not up to them to interpret, you want news journalists to do something that is not news journalism. If Intel didn't say it or provide information then you can't make it up. Intel provided information during their press event and it was reported on and the issue is not if the news articles were misleading it's about the presentation. We are saying the presentation is misleading, if journalists and viewers got mislead and then spread incorrect information then does this not show it was misleading? Complaining that news articles were misleading because the source of information was not complete is highly amusing to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 A direct quote from the keynote when they showed the CPU running Cinebench: "Sometimes this benchmark takes minutes to run but you can see when we have 28 cores running at 5GHz you fly through it. Now look at that number 7334, and that is an incredible number. And tell you what we're going to take that product to market in Q4 this year you'll be able to get it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said: A direct quote from the keynote when they showed the CPU running Cinebench: "Sometimes this benchmark takes minutes to run but you can see when we have 28 cores running at 5GHz you fly through it. Now look at that number 7334, and that is an incredible number. And tell you what we're going to take that product to market in Q4 this year you'll be able to get it." Damn can't wait to hit 7000+ in C15 with a intel stock cooler. :^) if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said: If the tech reporters couldn't figure out that something with a waterblock attached to it wasn't stock, it's their fault for spreading it around that it was stock, not Intel or people that feel like they were mislead. So of course Intel had to be like "uh,hey guys were you even paying attention"? later on. this and the fact all core frequency? they just up and dropped boost 3.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 Here if you want to LAUGH HARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 8, 2018 9 hours ago, valdyrgramr said: To me, this is just coming off as another 9590, performance lies and requires extreme cooling. They deserve the hate as much as AMD did. Hate it all you want, I don't particularly care if it needs extreme cooling or not, Intel hardly hid the fact it needed it but people are claiming they did. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 9 hours ago, valdyrgramr said: I think people are failing to realize that this is the 28 core CPU that Intel is intending to rival the 32 core TR2. That's part of the problem. Except there's no way that all chips are going to be able to do that even with chilled non-LN2 cooling unless some serious binning of $9000 processors is going on to then sell them for less than $4000. If they are willing to do that, it says some... interesting things about AMDs impact on the server and HEDT markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, ravenshrike said: Except there's no way that all chips are going to be able to do that even with chilled non-LN2 cooling unless some serious binning of $9000 processors is going on to then sell them for less than $4000. If they are willing to do that, it says some... interesting things about AMDs impact on the server and HEDT markets. we have no clue what intel is capable of or even doing lol for all we know this 10nm problem could be hogwash they dont want to release next gen because it could be too much of a boost and then it could make others fall off or they could be tapped out and thats why they brought in keller to get something going because in few yrs they will be behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 27 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said: Which makes this even more misleading towards the professionals buying this thing. The professionals that would even consider it wouldn't be overclocking to risk their work, the waterblock on the thing should have been obvious to them. I've never even put a custom loop together and I could tell it wasn't any standard cooling system. 20 minutes ago, pas008 said: we have no clue what intel is capable of or even doing lol for all we know this 10nm problem could be hogwash they dont want to release next gen because it could be too much of a boost and then it could make others fall off or they could be tapped out and thats why they brought in keller to get something going because in few yrs they will be behind I doubt they'd be so behind, though getting 10nm to the quality and yields they want isn't the same as other manufacturing tech and AMD throwing around the 7nm buzzword. They could have just showed this crazy cpu off to get people thinking they're in trouble then surprise everyone later. And if it was almost any other company presenting a undisclosed product people would actually be calling out these misleading articles instead of the company that didn't reveal much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 This is just sad. Or how Trump says it... SAD! Mobo: Z97 MSI Gaming 7 / CPU: i5-4690k@4.5GHz 1.23v / GPU: EVGA GTX 1070 / RAM: 8GB DDR3 1600MHz@CL9 1.5v / PSU: Corsair CX500M / Case: NZXT 410 / Monitor: 1080p IPS Acer R240HY bidx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said: And if it was almost any other company presenting a undisclosed product people would actually be calling out these misleading articles instead of the company that didn't reveal much. These "other companies" actually bother to say the clocks are not final or disclose overclocking is being used, Intel usually does state these kinds of information just not this time. The problem with "about me" points of view is it isn't about you, we are saying the presentation was misleading because information that should have been said was not. It's not about if you were mislead or not or if you could tell water cooling was in use or you could assume the CPU was overclocked, Intel must state these things, they have to and usually are required to as this still comes under product advertising and there are rules about this. That's what we are saying, they did not do what they needed to do. If you go watch any presentation from any industry sector about an unfinished or unreleased product all information given is qualified by statements that they are not final and are subject to change, they do this not because they want to it's because they have to. That's why it's better to not say something about a product unless it's final and that approach is usually taken, if you say nothing you can't be held to account for it, Intel did say something and failed to qualify it. They then had to correct that because they had to, not because they wanted to. Another thing is you are assuming we are attacking Intel as a company or trying to defame them in some sort of manor, can we not just live in world where pointing out something as misleading isn't an attack on a company, maybe that's all we think about the situation. We can still like what was shown, we can still be impressed by it, we can even be excited about it and still say that the presentation was misleading because they failed so say something they needed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said: Which makes this even more misleading towards the professionals buying this thing. But aren’t professionals aware of this issue in the first place? I mean, if you’re at that level of professionalism, you don’t dive head first into a purchase like this... no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 After watching Spoiler I've realized that intel had to have enough time for gigabyte and asus to make motherboards custom for this 5ghz overclock. Either they got wind of the 32 core a couple months ago or this was just a coincidence? MOAR COARS: 5GHz "Confirmed" Black Edition™ The Build AMD 5950X 4.7/4.6GHz All Core Dynamic OC + 1900MHz FCLK | 5GHz+ PBO | ASUS X570 Dark Hero | 32 GB 3800MHz 14-15-15-30-48-1T GDM 8GBx4 | PowerColor AMD Radeon 6900 XT Liquid Devil @ 2700MHz Core + 2130MHz Mem | 2x 480mm Rad | 8x Blacknoise Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-PS Black Edition 120mm PWM | Thermaltake Core P5 TG Ti + Additional 3D Printed Rad Mount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said: But aren’t professionals aware of this issue in the first place? I mean, if you’re at that level of professionalism, you don’t dive head first into a purchase like this... no? 4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said: You'd be surprised at the amount of non-hw techies in professional fields like graphics design, those doing cad work, 3d modeling, and so on. Have you not read the bs claims in tech specs for game development? It's kinda obvious that there are plenty of non-techies in pro fields that could be using these parts, so I highly doubt those people are going to know that Intel pulled some bs like this, but will wonder why they aren't seeing the same results. Then they'll come to a place like LTT or Tom'sHW and ask us, "What's wrong with my system?!" Shit you'd be surprised at the amount of non techies that hold managerial positions in the IT field.... If you doubt me ask @leadeater those are the kind of guys who make work hard for us when we're trying to implement something because they don't have a flying clue what we're talking about. CPU: Intel i7 7700K | GPU: ROG Strix GTX 1080Ti | PSU: Seasonic X-1250 (faulty) | Memory: Corsair Vengeance RGB 3200Mhz 16GB | OS Drive: Western Digital Black NVMe 250GB | Game Drive(s): Samsung 970 Evo 500GB, Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 3.5" | Motherboard: Gigabyte Z270x Gaming 7 | Case: Fractal Design Define S (No Window and modded front Panel) | Monitor(s): Dell S2716DG G-Sync 144Hz, Acer R240HY 60Hz (Dead) | Keyboard: G.SKILL RIPJAWS KM780R MX | Mouse: Steelseries Sensei 310 (Striked out parts are sold or dead, awaiting zen2 parts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted June 9, 2018 13 hours ago, schwellmo92 said: It doesn't matter that all they said was it had 28 cores. They were deceptive in the fact that they ran it out of spec and with an out-of-the-ordinary cooling device without disclosing this. This is Australian but I cbf finding the American equivalent: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/advertising-promoting-your-business/false-or-misleading-statements Some snippets that Intel failed: That is for products/services that are sold, you cannot be held liable for misleading information when you haven't actually engaged in a service. What Intel did is a product demonstration with an expected release date, not a product sale. At best this comes under advertising standards and given they said Q4 for release they cannot currently be considered misleading advertising. The product has to be different from their description. At any rate I'll address some of the reasons it doesn't technically fail: 13 hours ago, schwellmo92 said: "When assessing whether conduct is likely to mislead or deceive, consider whether the overall impression created by the conduct is false or inaccurate." Given that no one thought it was a standard cooler and everyone was quick to identify it is most likely a xeon then it will be hard to show the impression was given that it was something different. 13 hours ago, schwellmo92 said: "It is illegal for a business to make statements that are incorrect or likely to create a false impression." Not sure the information they gave that was inaccurate. When Q4 comes around and they haven't released a 28 Core CPU you can starting claiming they misrepresented their product 13 hours ago, schwellmo92 said: "Do not: omit relevant information" You have to define relevant information, This varies case by case, 28 core on phase change cooling does not need to be pointed out. 12 cores requiring phase change should absolutely be announced. A certain amount of product knowledge is expected on the consumers part even under Australia's strict consumer laws. Hence why it is not misleading to omit the fact if you buy a bigger car it will use more petrol. 13 hours ago, schwellmo92 said: "When presenting information about products or services to customers, be sure to: give current and correct information note important limitations or exemptions correct any misunderstandings" They demonstrated a single chip with 28 cores at 5ghz and said they will push for product release in Q4. Limitations are not know as it is a work in progress,They still have time to correct misunderstandings. As I said before, if they don't then it is fair to assume they have a 28 core product that should reach 5ghz in Q4. This is not to say people shouldn't be upset, I can certainly see why this is an unlikely product to reach market, however the difference is that until it fails to reach market in reasonable time (Q4) it is not actually misleading. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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