Intel's 28 Core 5Ghz CPU is misleading at best

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, Swatson said:

I've realized that intel had to have enough time for gigabyte and asus  to make motherboards custom for this 5ghz overclock. Either they got wind of the 32 core a couple months ago or this was just a coincidence?

Not sure, I was wondering about that myself and got to thinking about a few things like the 1950X. So if the current TR1 CPU hits 3000+ CB score stock then double the cores plus minor Zen+ improvements means potentially 6000+ CB score, then looking at Linus's coverage at the Asus booth for the 28 core CPU it's getting 6100 ish under custom water loop. Based on that I think Intel knew the 32 core TR2 was coming and wanted something that would beat it and not by a small amount.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As I said before, if they don't then it is fair to assume they have a 28 core product that should reach 5ghz in Q4.

They have, it's confirmed 14nm and the demonstration was running the product overclocked. They also mentioned that they were intending to actually say it was overclocked but it didn't end up getting said.

[S w a t s o n]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Not sure, I was wondering about that myself and got to thinking about a few things like the 1950X. So if the current TR1 CPU hits 3000+ CB score stock then double the cores plus minor Zen+ improvements means potentially 6000+ CB score, then looking at Linus's coverage at the Asus booth for the 28 core CPU it's getting 6100 ish under custom water loop. Based on that I think Intel knew the 32 core TR2 was coming and wanted something that would beat it and not be a small amount.

Can't wait to see AMD trot out LN2 once they finalize the 32 core, if you're gonna epeen you gotta do it right

 

Just now, leadeater said:

They have, it's confirmed 14nm and the demonstration was running the product overclocked. They also mentioned that they were intending to actually say it was overclocked but it didn't end up getting said.

yea I read that too

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Can't wait to see AMD trot out LN2 once they finalize the 32 core, if you're gonna epeen you gotta do it right

Based on Buildzoids assessment of the Gigaybe board for the Intel 28 core CPU it was purpose built for LN2 insanity, I think Intel will easily win LN2 vs LN2.

[S w a t s o n]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Based on Buildzoids assessment of the Gigaybe board for the Intel 28 core CPU it was purpose built for LN2 insanity, I think Intel will easily win LN2 vs LN2.

Except one costs like 1/2 half as much and the "easily" win is less than 10% in a benchmark

Edited June 9, 2018 by Swatson
i did the math

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

They have, it's confirmed 14nm and the demonstration was running the product overclocked. They also mentioned that they were intending to actually say it was overclocked but it didn't end up getting said.

Which makes sense given the gigabyte stand had the cooler out in plain sight and why Intel didn't seem to be worried or tried defending it. 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Which makes sense given the gigabyte stand had the cooler out in plain sight and why Intel didn't seem to be worried or tried defending it. 

Doesn't really explain why they unexpectedly took the CPUs away from Gigabyte, possibly Asus too?, without much warning or time to take the system apart. I have my suspicions that the water chiller wasn't supposed to be out in plain sight, who knows.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Except one costs like 1/2 half as much and the "easily" win is less than a percent in a benchmark

As long as one of them gets over 9000!!! I'll be happy.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Doesn't really explain why they unexpectedly took the CPUs away from Gigabyte, possibly Asus too?, without much warning or time to take the system apart. I have my suspicions that the water chiller wasn't supposed to be out in plain sight, who knows.

That would be a pretty dumb thing to try and hide from everyone, like hiding a supercharger in a 6sec drag car, everyone knows it has one because it's not possible to post those numbers without it.   If they took the chips from Asus and Gigabyte it would simply be because they don't want what they are discovered, whether that makes people suspicious or not is irrelevant, NDA and trade secrets exist for a reason and I can't see Intel taking a risk given the communities response.

 

As far as I am concerned the only thing that remains to be seen is what CPU they release in Q4. How they developed it or what it started out life as is irrelevant.

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That would be a pretty dumb thing to try and hide from everyone, like hiding a supercharger in a 6sec drag car, everyone knows it has one because it's not possible to post those numbers without it.   If they took the chips from Asus and Gigabyte it would simply be because they don't want what they are discovered, whether that makes people suspicious or not is irrelevant, NDA and trade secrets exist for a reason and I can't see Intel taking a risk given the communities response.

 

As far as I am concerned the only thing that remains to be seen is what CPU they release in Q4. How they developed it or what it started out life as is irrelevant.

Well they were approved to be shown off at the booths before Computex, they weren't concerned with people looking at them then, why now. It's not irrelevant it's actually rather interesting. It may have nothing to do with the end product but it's still odd that it was done, we know for sure the Gigbyte system was dismantled and the CPU taken away.

 

How it started out isn't irrelevant either, you set the tone for a 28 core 5GHz CPU and fail to mention that it's an overclock and not clarify that then you'll get a lot of very disappointed people and potentially a false advertising claim. That's why it was important to actually state during the presentation that the CPU was overclocked and why Intel had to clarify later.

[Blademaster91]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That would be a pretty dumb thing to try and hide from everyone, like hiding a supercharger in a 6sec drag car, everyone knows it has one because it's not possible to post those numbers without it.   If they took the chips from Asus and Gigabyte it would simply be because they don't want what they are discovered, whether that makes people suspicious or not is irrelevant, NDA and trade secrets exist for a reason and I can't see Intel taking a risk given the communities response.

 

As far as I am concerned the only thing that remains to be seen is what CPU they release in Q4. How they developed it or what it started out life as is irrelevant.

Yeah kinda dumb since the chips were taken away yet still left the chiller in plain sight.   Intel had good reason to hide the CPU's because this is under a lot of NDA and secrets, confirming everything now and having a completely different cpu at launch would be worse and actually misleading, yet people are acting like every detail needs to be revealed. The thing to have any actual concern about is if they're going to sell the equivalent of something about as practical as a 6sec drag car. Also the only thing that can be confirmed is a 28 core on 14nm capable of doing 5ghz, doesn't matter how right now because that has pretty clear implications of being something still in development.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah kinda dumb since the chips were taken away yet still left the chiller in plain sight.   Intel had good reason to hide the CPU's because this is under a lot of NDA and secrets, confirming everything now and having a completely different cpu at launch would be worse and actually misleading, yet people are acting like every detail needs to be revealed

No the system was running and actually appeared in Paul's video, then later Intel came in and took the CPU away. They didn't leave the chiller in plain sight after taking the CPU, the system was actually running in the booth for people to see. And we aren't asking for all the details, we are asking for them to actually say overclocking was in use when it was.

 

Edit:

Otherwise I want my 28 core 5Ghz stock CPU and I'll sue Intel if it's not because that is what they showed, I'll sue them for breaking advertising laws. FYI yes I'm being facetious. 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Um, no.  Nobody cares about the NDA crap.  The problem is the misleading info.

1)  Unless they plan to ship them with a chiller or LN2, these are not going to do 5GHz even with a phase change setup or a custom loop.

2) That would require a lot of factory binning, which I doubt Intel would even do on a pro level product not aimed at enthusiasts.

3) This is obviously the CPU meant to rival the 32 core TR2, and they're misleading their target audience by holding back information.  But, to be fair to Intel I am doubting that even telling them that it is OCed would mean much to the mass majority of non-techies in professional fields that would be using this product.
 

The levels of facts changing and ignoring time lines is getting rather annoying, dear I say misleading.....

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

So, what your saying is every non-techie knows the difference between air, passive, liquid, phase change, chiller, and ln2 cooling?  They all know the difference between stock and overclocking?  Got ya.  Also, that's not your typical waterblock that's part of a chiller.  

So now you're changing from professional to a non-techie? A "non-techie" isn't  in the market for a unlocked CPU at all. If they're a professional that doesn't care to inform themselves on the basic differences between air and any liquid cooling it isn't someone else's fault.

Also, yes I got that, if i had a dollar for every time someone mentioned "but it's a chiller!" I could probably get a 4K monitor with it. The chiller doesn't really matter when the product isn't final, Intel  didn't care about the chiller and only took the chips back,and still clarified what the setup was later in the Gigabyte and Asus display booths. I'd agree that it's a bit suspicious that Intel let them show the chiller unit yet it doesn't matter when they didn't even reveal a marketing name yet.

The tech media also should have known it was something extreme just by seeing insulated tubes through the case window and shouldn't have acted totally surprised that it was overclocked.

29 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ironically, even stating that it was overclocked will probably go over a non-techie's head.  Which is likely going to be the mass majority of people even using this thing.

Again,can we pick one please? The mass market "non-techie" aren't the target consumer for any HEDT chip from either brand if they don't understand the difference between stock and overclocked when it has something that clearly is out of the ordinary cooling on it.

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

If they're a professional that doesn't care to inform themselves on the basic differences between air and any liquid cooling it isn't someone else's fault.

There are plenty of professionals in IT that cannot build a computer, know nothing about CPU architectures or GPUs who buy these systems. They are professionals in their area of expertise not all of IT.

 

I support researchers on multi million dollar projects that are experts in HPC computing and CUDA programming who have never touched a server in their life, that's my job not theirs. They ask me for a system with 4 Volta GPUs in it with peer-to-peer configuration, I spec it, order it, rack it, install the OS, test it then hand it over to be used.

 

Tech enthusiast != Profiessional

Handyman != certified builder or plumber

 

[Blademaster91]

9 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Um, no.  Nobody cares about the NDA crap.  The problem is the misleading info.

1)  Unless they plan to ship them with a chiller or LN2, these are not going to do 5GHz even with a phase change setup or a custom loop.

2) That would require a lot of factory binning, which I doubt Intel would even do on a pro level product not aimed at enthusiasts.

3) This is obviously the CPU meant to rival the 32 core TR2, and they're misleading their target audience by holding back information.  But, to be fair to Intel I am doubting that even telling them that it is OCed would mean much to the mass majority of non-techies in professional fields that would be using this product.

Pretty obvious no one cares about the NDA's when everyone wants every single detail now when Intel does have an excuse to hold their cards back, especially when AMD gets the win from the press and consumer anyways.

1. What they showed off there so far can be assumed isn't what is going to be shipped because that would be stupid, if it is then we can call it misleading. I'll call it misleading too but until then they aren't selling a product.

2. I guess the 8086K is misleading too since most of the headlines claim "it's a limited edition 6 cores at 5Ghz!" and don't tell you it's the turbo until you keep reading.

3. That has yet to be even confirmed though, who knows how long Intel had any of it in development for, although the Asus motherboard looks like they removed a socket from a dual socket board,added a bunch of VRM's. I saw Buildzoid's vid on the Gigabyte board which looked like it took more careful planning because they obviously designed it for extreme runs. If the non-techies don't care if it's OC'ed they probably don't care what is running their work as long as it just works.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Pretty obvious no one cares about the NDA's when everyone wants every single detail now when Intel does have an excuse to hold their cards back, especially when AMD gets the win from the press and consumer anyways.

Yes because asking for them to state overclocking was in use is "every single detail". I wonder what Intel thinks about that request and if it was an appropriate thing to ask for... if only they had commented on it... wait you mean they did? Well now that is interesting, what was it they said again? They should have said overclocking is in use.

 

[NMS]

Oh who cares, clearly in 2017 and 2018 AMD is the winner. Intel is just trying to level with them but is failing awfully FOR THE SECOND TIME now.

So yeah, looks like AMD just ripped Intel yet again.

[Jito463]

On 6/7/2018 at 10:19 AM, leadeater said:

Combined phases in US is 220V or 240V (they for what ever reason have 110V and 120V standards, weird)

Because FREEDOM!  We get to choose between 110v and 120v, we're not restricted to one option like the rest of you!  

On 6/8/2018 at 4:33 PM, mr moose said:

Hate it all you want, I don't particularly care if it needs extreme cooling or not, Intel hardly hid the fact it needed it but people are claiming they did.

Deception by omission is still deception.  If you show off a plot of land, and construct a building to hide the swamp land in the back then "forget" to reveal that information, it's still deception.  Just because no one lost any money doesn't make it any less deceptive.

On 6/8/2018 at 11:42 PM, Swatson said:

I've realized that intel had to have enough time for gigabyte and asus  to make motherboards custom for this 5ghz overclock. Either they got wind of the 32 core a couple months ago or this was just a coincidence?

Personally, I wonder if they were still operating under the assumption that TR2 would be 24 core.  Look at when TR launched, suddenly Intel went from 12 cores to 18 (which was just above the 16 cores from AMD).  It wouldn't be out of character for them to announce a 28 core part to outshine the 24 core part from AMD.

 

In my personal opinion, they got one-upped by AMD keeping the 32-core part under wraps until the show.

[SupremeGOAT]

On 6/7/2018 at 1:47 PM, pas008 said:

really?

crying about misleading cooling?

we all know all companies do this

 

intel amd and nvidia have mislead us

even lie

 

oh fury the overclockers dream

how about the volta killer

yes I named amd because I like to trigger  all fanboys and this thread seems full of them

 

 

 

we should be rejoicing? lol typical sheep...

[BachChain]

Wait, people genuinely thought that a 28 core CPU at 5Ghz was:

a. running at stock

b. staying within a reasonable TDP

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Jito463 said:

 

Deception by omission is still deception.  If you show off a plot of land, and construct a building to hide the swamp land in the back then "forget" to reveal that information, it's still deception.  Just because no one lost any money doesn't make it any less deceptive.

 

They didn't hide the fact it needed that cooler. Sure it was under a table for the main event (just as likely to be for aesthetics as anything else), but they went to no lengths to hide it anywhere else.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

They didn't hide the fact it needed that cooler. Sure it was under a table for the main event (just as likely to be for aesthetics as anything else), but they went to no lengths to hide it anywhere else.

Personally I don't think they needed to say what the cooling was, or at least get in to details like that it was chilled water etc. Getting in to that type of thing isn't stage friendly. For me they just needed to state in the sentence where they said it was 5Ghz that it was overclocked, not everyone watching the presentation and not every media outlet that attends and reports on Computex are product reviewers so do actually have no idea that 28 cores 5Ghz could have only been an overclock.

 

Intel is genuinely truthful about what they say about their products so for the people not in the know when they hear Intel say something like that then they trust what is being said.

 

That's the essence of my point, when it comes to product marketing and presentations it's not good enough to leave it up to people to assume what is going on or figure it you, spell it out or don't say anything.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Personally I don't think they needed to say what the cooling was, or at least get in to details like that it was chilled water etc. Getting in to that type of thing isn't stage friendly. For me they just needed to state in the sentence where they said it was 5Ghz that it was overclocked, not everyone watching the presentation and not every media outlet that attends and reports on Computex are product reviewers so do actually have no idea that 28 cores 5Ghz could have only been an overclock.

 

Intel is genuinely truthful about what they say about their products so for the people not in the know when they hear Intel say something like that then they trust what is being said.

 

That's the essence of my point, when it comes to product marketing and presentations it's not good enough to leave it up to people to assume what is going on or figure it you, spell it out or don't say anything.

I can see that, people are looking at the product for what it is now though rather than what it is supposed to represent.  If Intel are promising a product in the future of 5gz then how they achieve that 5ghz now is kind of irrelevant.  They are demonstrating they can and promising they will.  Although I do share the skepticism that they are able to release 28 cores at 5gz on reasonable cooling (air or AIO),  if they do then the fact it was overclocked and super chilled shouldn't matter should it?

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I can see that, people are looking at the product for what it is now though rather than what it is supposed to represent.  If Intel are promising a product in the future of 5gz then how they achieve that 5ghz now is kind of irrelevant.  They are demonstrating they can and promising they will.  Although I do share the skepticism that they are able to release 28 cores at 5gz on reasonable cooling (air or AIO),  if they do then the fact it was overclocked and super chilled shouldn't matter should it?

I don't think Intel was promising at all that the future product would have 5Ghz or could be normally achieved, I think it was a show piece and is actually impressive. 28 cores at 5Ghz is nothing short of amazing.

 

Being that they confirmed it's on an existing 14nm process does mean anything on that sort of level is well above a normal overclock, won't stop anyone from trying though .