Canadian team discovers power-draining flaw in most laptop and phone batteries

[Westingham]

Summary

A team at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia claim they've identified a widespread manufacturing flaw that is responsible for phone / tablet / laptop batteries slowly draining over time.

 

Quotes

Quote

 The phone, tablet or laptop you're reading this on is likely having its battery slowly drained because of a surprising and widespread manufacturing flaw, according to researchers in Halifax. The problem? Tiny pieces of tape that hold the battery components together are made from the wrong type of plastic.

 

 

My thoughts

If, as the article suggests, the giant battery companies of the world made a change to their manufacturing process, we could see batteries that hold charges for longer as well as have more charge cycles during the battery's lifetime. Consumers are happy their devices stay charged longer and batteries don't get turned into e-waste as quickly.

 

Sources

 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/battery-power-laptop-phone-research-dalhousie-university-1.6724175

[thekingofmonks]

Planned obsolescence: hold my beer

[Doobeedoo]

I just hope we switch to some solid state batteries soon enough already.

[Quackers101]

have wondered about battery quality. as some seems pretty bad compared to others or selling from shady areas.

[Paranoid Kami]

5 hours ago, thekingofmonks said:

Planned obsolescence: hold my beer

Says in the article many tech companies were surprised to learn this and are coming up with solutions.

[jagdtigger]

55 minutes ago, Paranoid Kami said:

many tech companies were surprised to learn this

[Fasterthannothing]

No way I'll take one giant dump truck load of salt please. 

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Paranoid Kami said:

Says in the article many tech companies were surprised to learn this and are coming up with solutions.

I doubt companies like Apple, Dell or Samsung were surprised. It's very likely the "tape" doesn't even exist in user-serviceable batteries.

Quote

Through the chemical analysis, the team realized that DMT has a similar structure to another molecule: polyethylene terephthalate (PET). 

PET, the plastic soda bottles are made of.

Quote

Some of the world's largest computer-hardware companies and electric-vehicle manufacturers were very interested.

I'm sure the vehicle manufacturers were very interested because none of them actually produce their own batteries. (I'm not sure which parts Tesla make themselves, but I'm sure other companies aren't making the cells themselves.)

 

The cells shown in the article are cylindrical ones, which aren't what's in computers.

[wanderingfool2]

3 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

I just hope we switch to some solid state batteries soon enough already.

There are still hurdles though with solid state batteries, at least last I looked they still had a pretty bad cycle rate.

 

27 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I'm not sure which parts Tesla make themselves, but I'm sure other companies aren't making the cells themselves.

Tesla makes some of their own but still has to source a large chunk of their batteries from Panasonic (to their specs though)...but even with that said the plant is built into the manufacturing facility.  With that said, I think Tesla is one of the few that uses cylindrical cells with a lot of the others going for pouch cells.

 

With that said, the two published papers seems to greatly be talking about pouch cells.  Specifically they have a picture that shows an unraveled pouch cell pack.  So it will have an effect on phones, laptops, etc.

[Doobeedoo]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

There are still hurdles though with solid state batteries, at least last I looked they still had a pretty bad cycle rate.

Yeah they're in development and are said to be used in EVs in two years or so, for consumer electrics probably longer. Lately from what I've read, they are better in every single way, charge cycles, capacity, speed, etc. Hurdles being cost, some other concerns so they can be robust in variety of conditions. But yeah, wish we can have some solid info that they may come soon somewhat.

[Quackers101]

oof, if batteries for EVs are shown to have a very bad service life. that green view of EVs unless strong regulations comes in, will fade away for that scrap yard.

As to those that ruined their teslas, from it being more expensive to "repair" than to buy a new one with the same issue.

[Mihle]

8 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

oof, if batteries for EVs are shown to have a very bad service life. that green view of EVs unless strong regulations comes in, will fade away for that scrap yard.

As to those that ruined their teslas, from it being more expensive to "repair" than to buy a new one with the same issue.

Tesla Model S with big battery, the battery lasts longer than many keep their petrol cars before getting rid of them (in km driven).

The smaller the battery the less it lasts, so a car with 50 kWh battery lasts less.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Mihle said:

Tesla Model S with big battery, the battery lasts longer than many keep their petrol cars before getting rid of them (in km driven).

The smaller the battery the less it lasts, so a car with 50 kWh battery lasts less.

But a petrol car can go through many different owners before the service life of the ICE is exhausted, can the same be said for batteries?      We would have to know how many miles an EV gets before replacing he cells and at what environmental costs?

 

 

[Arika]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

But a petrol car can go through many different owners before the service life of the ICE is exhausted, can the same be said for batteries?      We would have to know how many miles an EV gets before replacing he cells and at what environmental costs?

 

 

i would love to see what a tesla bought today can do in 17 years time (i suspect not much given it's massive reliance on being internet connected and a battery). i have a 2006 that is still running perfectly

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Arika S said:

i would love to see what a tesla bought today can do in 17 years time (i suspect not much given it's massive reliance on being internet connected and a battery). i have a 2006 that is still running perfectly

Ditto

I have 2x 2000 models, a 2007 and a 1997 in the drive,  I'm getting rid of the 1997 because it is superfluous to our needs.  All of them are reliable, don't need internet, updates or ongoing payment for options and they aren't expensive for servicing or parts and cannot be tracked, hacked or stacked by a computer. 

[Dracarris]

15 hours ago, Kisai said:

It's very likely the "tape" doesn't even exist in user-serviceable batteries.

Maybe read the articles before posting such ....

The tape is an internal component of the battery. Whether there is a sturdy additional shell around the battery or not is irrelevant to this issue.

22 hours ago, Westingham said:

Sources

 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/battery-power-laptop-phone-research-dalhousie-university-1.6724175

Why the heck is there a huge vertical space after every sentence?? 

[wanderingfool2]

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Why the heck is there a huge vertical space after every sentence?? 

Probably to make the article fill out more and it can also help with processing the information being said.

[mdk777]

7 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

You don't say!

My pet peeve, 

I see headlines and even PHD dissertations stating the OBVIOUS.

 

"sleeping less than 4 hours a night detrimental to your health"

"extreme obesity linked to mobility issues in the elderly"

 

The list is nearly infinite.

 

I guess there is so little in actually NEW news that they just keep saying the obvious in different ways to justify their jobs.

 

[Mihle]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

But a petrol car can go through many different owners before the service life of the ICE is exhausted, can the same be said for batteries?      We would have to know how many miles an EV gets before replacing he cells and at what environmental costs?

 

I don't have specific numbers, but the environment impact of an electric car from production is higher than petrol, but the impact becomes equal before any of them reaches end of time or battery change time.

 (I think I remember seeing 50k km for an EV WV Golf on European energy mix or something, but don't quote me on that, and VW golf do not have a big battery).

 

Most electric cars warranties is around 7 years, and 150k km for 70-80% of the charge. Tesla Model S/X spesifically is 70% charge, 8 years, 240k km.

 

This site has some data but from what I can see they only do it based on number of years and not distance driven. They in general 86% after 7 years.

https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

 

If you search the web for Tesla battery degredation, you find plenty that claim around 10% battery loss after 240k km with photos of it, But that is some cars and not mass data numbers.

 

I tried to search for average distance driven lifetime of petrol cars, different articles gave different answers, but most of them were around 220-320k km somewhere, you can search for yourself if you want to.

[Mihle]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

Ditto

I have 2x 2000 models, a 2007 and a 1997 in the drive,  I'm getting rid of the 1997 because it is superfluous to our needs.  All of them are reliable, don't need internet, updates or ongoing payment for options and they aren't expensive for servicing or parts and cannot be tracked, hacked or stacked by a computer. 

Worth noting that single car example is not representative for the average ofc, but that is true with EVs too. Distance driven probably matter more than its age.

[mdk777]

2 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

But... it is what OP said.

21 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

You don't say!

Yeah he could have said it will be great if implemented,  and left it at that.

But i could easily get wound up on the subject....What we really need if a CAPT. OBVIOUS Emoji that is universal.

I would use it 24 7

 

 

[mdk777]

2 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Distance driven probably matter more than its age.

I drive all my cars on average for the last 20 years up to 200k miles(often more). or 322k km

 

I also drive 500 to 700 miles a day on a regular basis (sales territory)

 

Just saying, it will be a long long time before charging is fast enough to make EV worth it for me.

[starsmine]

20 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

My pet peeve, 

I see headlines and even PHD dissertations stating the OBVIOUS.

 

"sleeping less than 4 hours a night detrimental to your health"

"extreme obesity linked to mobility issues in the elderly"

 

The list is nearly infinite.

 

I guess there is so little in actually NEW news that they just keep saying the obvious in different ways to justify their jobs.

 

Its about the specificity. 
Saying broad statements is not really helpful.

Cool so 4 hours is detrimental. HOW detrimental? HOW can we minimize risk? At what point should we start interviening, 4 hours? 5 hours, 6hours? Are there confounding factors?
Dont be mad at the PHD dissertations looking into those questions. Be mad at the media communicating poorly.

[Mihle]

10 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

I drive all my cars on average for the last 20 years up to 200k miles(often more). or 322k km

 

I also drive 500 to 700 miles a day on a regular basis (sales territory)

 

Just saying, it will be a long long time before charging is fast enough to make EV worth it for me.

You are a minority tho most likely, and that's fine. Also depends on what you do. Some people when driving that long take 30 min break at petrol station in the middle of the trip, and if you do you can just change that to a quick charger place, if it's time and location where they aren't full.

 

Different people are in different situation and have different needs.

 

For many people, as long as you usually drive less than one battery charge and what you can charge overnight at home is fine.

 

EV batteries will improve, how fast I don't know tho.

[CarlBar]

55 minutes ago, Mihle said:

You are a minority tho most likely, and that's fine. Also depends on what you do. Some people when driving that long take 30 min break at petrol station in the middle of the trip, and if you do you can just change that to a quick charger place, if it's time and location where they aren't full.

 

Different people are in different situation and have different needs.

 

For many people, as long as you usually drive less than one battery charge and what you can charge overnight at home is fine.

 

EV batteries will improve, how fast I don't know tho.

 

It's also worth pointing out that business models will lily change as EV's take over to account for the quirks.Probably staring in about 10 years time as thats approximately when a lot of Europe will be banning new ICE's, which is going to severely depress ICE profitability and likely push an increasing move away from them for manufacturers, which will start forcing business using them to begin adapting or at least planning for it, (where probably looking at a minimum of another 10 years before companies are increasingly forced to actually switch due to the supply of ICE's still out there).