Canadian team discovers power-draining flaw in most laptop and phone batteries

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

10 years time as thats approximately when a lot of Europe will be banning new ICE's

Rolling black-outs here we go....

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, mdk777 said:

Yeah he could have said it will be great if implemented,  and left it at that.

But i could easily get wound up on the subject....What we really need if a CAPT. OBVIOUS Emoji that is universal.

I would use it 24 7

Except that offers no insight or opinions on the topic.  It's a valid point that if implemented that it would be a great thing for consumers (assuming that it was the issue).

 

Small little things like this research are the ones that have changed Lithium batteries to become where they are today (energy density, it's gone up by like 50% in about 10 years).

 

2 hours ago, mdk777 said:

I also drive 500 to 700 miles a day on a regular basis (sales territory)

The max speed limit in the US is 85 mph.  That means if you drive it on a regular basis you are claiming to drive 6 - 8 hours a day, or if you are in a place other than Texas that's 6.5 - 9 1/3 hours you are claiming to drive per day.  That is atypical of how much people would normally drive.

 

That also assumes that you don't take breaks, if you take a break at a supercharger, you could add about 2.7% per minute...so in 5 minutes that's 14% (38 miles on standard model 3)  Or 76 miles of range in a 10 minute break.  You only would need a total of 30-40 min of super charging to manage to get a 700 mile day in.  While it's not out yet, the cybertruck apparently is targeted to have a 500 mile range with a high voltage system (so even faster charging)

 

  

1 hour ago, CarlBar said:

It's also worth pointing out that business models will lily change as EV's take over to account for the quirks.Probably staring in about 10 years time as thats approximately when a lot of Europe will be banning new ICE's, which is going to severely depress ICE profitability and likely push an increasing move away from them for manufacturers, which will start forcing business using them to begin adapting or at least planning for it, (where probably looking at a minimum of another 10 years before companies are increasingly forced to actually switch due to the supply of ICE's still out there).

I think that you will find that Europe ends up repealing that/delaying it.  Many of the companies cannot produce EV's at an affordable cost.

 

GM - admitted that they won't be making a profit from EV's until 2025

Ford - admitted they aren't making money on the Mach-e at the moment.

 

The cost to produce an EV at the moment is just too high, and the scaling of the natural resources isn't in place yet.  I think what will happen is that a lot of car companies will start going out of business or raise the red flag and the government is going to step in and delay or bail out the companies.

[mdk777]

3 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The max speed limit in the US is 85 mph.  That means if you drive it on a regular basis you are claiming to drive 6 - 8 hours a day, or if you are in a place other than Texas that's 6.5 - 9 1/3 hours you are claiming to drive per day. 

Correct. I do live in TX. 

It takes 5.5 hours just to get out of the State.

I make sales calls to an industry that is spread out. I cover all of the mid-west from TX to Illinois to California.

I've driven over 1000 miles in a day, but that IS painful.

500-800 miles is common.

 

We are getting far afield in this topic.

 

Back to the discussion at hand:

 

I have read perhaps 2 dozen news stories and technical papers on new battery technology....it always seems just another couple of years or 5, or 10 years out.

 

It is great the research is being done. I wish they would report on the actual implementation, the actual products rather than vapor ware and WISH THINKING.

 

[suicidalfranco]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

Ditto

I have 2x 2000 models, a 2007 and a 1997 in the drive,  I'm getting rid of the 1997 because it is superfluous to our needs.  All of them are reliable, don't need internet, updates or ongoing payment for options and they aren't expensive for servicing or parts and cannot be tracked, hacked or stacked by a computer. 

and i thought mine was old when i got my 2009 golf with only 110k km on it

after six month it now sits at 190k km, getting a lot use from it, and it cost me less than macbook

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, mdk777 said:

Correct. I do live in TX. 

It takes 5.5 hours just to get out of the State.

I make sales calls to an industry that is spread out. I cover all of the mid-west from TX to Illinois to California.

I've driven over 1000 miles in a day, but that IS painful.

500-800 miles is common.

 

We are getting far afield in this topic.

 

Back to the discussion at hand:

 

I have read perhaps 2 dozen news stories and technical papers on new battery technology....it always seems just another couple of years or 5, or 10 years out.

 

It is great the research is being done. I wish they would report on the actual implementation, the actual products rather than vapor ware and WISH THINKING.

 

Dude.
https://www.amtrak.com/routes/texas-eagle-train.html
Take a train. Like yes our train infostructure is not great, but there is a route, just for your specific use case.

And also. Supercharging. sure 500+ miles is painful, but that whole route is FULL of superchargers. you are not doing 500+ miles in a single sitting. I drive cross country a lot. I have NEVER gone a full tank of gas (350-400 highway) without taking some kind of rest stop. after 2-3 hours you need to pull over to take a piss or rest your eyes. That time, can be used to get 50 miles back into the tank of an EV without adding any additional time to the trip.

[mdk777]

15 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Take a train. Like yes our train infostructure is not great, but there is a route, just for your specific use case.

Have always wished I could.

Austin to Chicago on AMTRAX = 28 to 34 hours.  Yes, an entire day and half ......price = $650

When you get anywhere you still need to rent a car.

At that price you might as well fly. 

SWA same trip at $320 and 2.5 hours

 

If flying is so cheap, why drive?

Customers are not at airport or train station.

 

If you drive, you can stop at customers all along the route. Yeah,  you may see only one customer in that 8 hours of driving...but it is entirely on your schedule...drive at day, drive at night ...start driving as soon as you are done and stop when you feel like it.

 

This is the barrier to public transportation in the US that no talks about.

Public transportation must go EVERYWHERE and do it on predictable, consistent basis.

 

One train a day does not cut it. You need to run every hour on the hour for people to take it up as their preferred mode of transportation.  

 

FYI, they will spend BILLIONS AND BILLIONS , I kid you not, it has already pass a local referendum to build more rail in AUSTIN.

NO ONE USES THE TRAIN NOW THAT EXISTS IN AUSTIN....I mean like less than 1/10 of 1% of the population....it blocks the intersections and I watch it pass..In the last 3 years I have seen exactly once when there was a passenger in the car going past. Once in the last three years!!!!!

NO ONE USES THE TRAIN THAT EXISTS IN ST LOIUS(bet you didn't know it existed...goes from airport to downtown)

NO ONE USE THE TRAIN THAT DOES NOT YET EXIST IN CA (which is in the hole for a Trillion dollars already)

 

But I RANT.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Maybe read the articles before posting such ....

 

If you can not contribute to the thread, do not reply. I always read the article and papers when stuff like this is posted. You could tell I read it, because I mentioned what the tape was made of. 

Quote

Note "One of the metallic sheets removed from a coil inside a cylindrical battery, Each layer of the coil is held in place by plastic tape"

 

That is what I was talking about when I later referred to EV batteries which use those.

 

But since you insist I somehow must have not read the article:

Quote

Pouch cell assembly

402035-size lithium-ion pouch cells with LFP (nominal capacity 220 mAh to 3.65 V) or NMC811 (nominal capacity 175 mAh to 4.06 V) positive electrodes and AG negative electrodes were obtained vacuum sealed without electrolyte (LiFUN Technologies, China).

402035's are these:

 

The other batter mentioned is NMC811, which specifies a formulation, not a standard shape.

The first battery shown on google is this one:

The second paper uses the same 402035 and NMC811

 

Neither of these batteries are "laptop", or "smartphone" batteries. The 402035 are used in Tesla EV's.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-battery-boffins-describe-million-mile-cell-in-new-paper/

 

In the second paper it shows this image

 

Quote

 Figure 17b shows photographs of the cathode of an unwound jelly roll (left) with green tapes, commonly used to secure the ends of the jelly roll after winding. 

Which leads to this:

Quote

Comparing the ATR-FTIR spectra of these cell components to the PET reference spectrum (green line in Fig. 17a), it becomes obvious that the outside of the pouch bag, as well as both tapes show the characteristic absorption bands of PET at 720, 1080, 1250, and 1720 cm⁻¹ wavenumbers. While the outside of the pouch bag is not in contact with electrolyte, the two tapes are in direct contact with the electrolyte. Hence, the tapes are the source of PET in our lithium-ion cells, which undergoes depolymerization in the presence of methanol and catalytic amounts of lithium methoxide to form the DMT redox shuttle.

Note the end of the article:

Quote

This work was funded under the auspices of the NSERC/Tesla Canada Alliance Grant program. 

 

This research was done exclusively on batteries used in EV's. Those are not user serviceable.

 

 

This is the inside of a Dell battery you'd find in the Precision 5510/5520/5530/new XPS 15"

The cells in that battery are sp645464sg from Lishen. Do they contain the same PET tape? Won't know unless someone takes one apart that far. My guess is that these MIGHT not be that different from the 402035.

 

Okay, so what about iphone or samsung smartphone batteries? 

 

The point I was making is that a user-serviceable battery is not these individual cylinder or pouch batteries. You replace a dell battery, (like above) you're not sitting there replacing the small pouches in it. 

 

The cheaper dell laptops basically have no rigid material in their batteries and you can see the outlines of the cells in them, but they are still assembled from 2-4 of them.

 

What might be an interesting research topic, would be to see what tape is used in Apple, Dell, Samsung, etc batteries to see if that IS a problem they have. My I belief here is that existing laptop and smartphone batteries likely do not contain the PET tape, otherwise they would have a much higher failure rate, however from experience, particularly with the Dell laptops is that the way users use their laptops as desktop replacements, often results in the battery generating gas and swelling long before it actually fails.

 

But in an EV? Where an EV battery might contain hundreds of them? There's no way to know if a single cell has failed, and if the PET tape is part of that self-discharge failure rate, that is quite a bit problem for EV's that can be fixed by not using plastic tape in contact with the electrolyte. The batteries might even last years longer if it can be eliminated.

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, mdk777 said:

I have read perhaps 2 dozen news stories and technical papers on new battery technology....it always seems just another couple of years or 5, or 10 years out.

 

It is great the research is being done. I wish they would report on the actual implementation, the actual products rather than vapor ware and WISH THINKING.

Except you are complaining about researchers doing xyz without even figuring out what they are claiming.

 

They literally realized the PET being used in the CURRENT batteries are not inert.  The research literally has an instant impact in that the companies could start using the other materials that are thought to be more inert.

 

It's not really "vapor ware" it's similar as if you found out that Takata airbags used a chemical that posed an explosion risk (if that was discovered sooner)...then it could have been corrected.  This can an almost an immediate impact if the battery makers go with other solutions.

[mdk777]

6 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The research literally has an instant impact in that the companies could start using the other materials that are thought to be more inert.

Again, could, would, should....

 

When my phone battery doesn't die after two years of use I will update this thread and be called a believer.

 

Unfortunately, I just ordered the Samsung 23 because my Samsung 21 will no longer hold a charge.

So the reality is that if they actually make the change today (which they will not, because that is not how supply chains work) I will not see any results until 3-4 years from now.

 

You're airbag example works against your argument. I still get recall notices from my 2005 Honda...This "problem" was know for many years...its the solution that is the problem.

 

I didn't complain about the research, I complained about the reporting, and the implication that immediate change was likely.

Knowing how something works(or doesn't work as well as it could) is only the start.

 

Seeing it to actual product launch is another thing.

 

 

 

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

If you can not contribute to the thread, do not reply.

That goes both ways - you come up with this old tale of user replaceable batteries that would solve all problems without any connection whatsoever to this story.

Nice analysis you did there, but at the end of the day, this tape is a component found deep inside the cells.

[CarlBar]

5 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Rolling black-outs here we go....

 

Nah Europe is investing hard in renewable energy and general buildout. I'm not saying there won't be pain points, (you never get everything no matter how well you prepare), but i'm not expecting massive issues on that scale.

 

5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Except that offers no insight or opinions on the topic.  It's a valid point that if implemented that it would be a great thing for consumers (assuming that it was the issue).

 

Small little things like this research are the ones that have changed Lithium batteries to become where they are today (energy density, it's gone up by like 50% in about 10 years).

 

The max speed limit in the US is 85 mph.  That means if you drive it on a regular basis you are claiming to drive 6 - 8 hours a day, or if you are in a place other than Texas that's 6.5 - 9 1/3 hours you are claiming to drive per day.  That is atypical of how much people would normally drive.

 

That also assumes that you don't take breaks, if you take a break at a supercharger, you could add about 2.7% per minute...so in 5 minutes that's 14% (38 miles on standard model 3)  Or 76 miles of range in a 10 minute break.  You only would need a total of 30-40 min of super charging to manage to get a 700 mile day in.  While it's not out yet, the cybertruck apparently is targeted to have a 500 mile range with a high voltage system (so even faster charging)

 

  

I think that you will find that Europe ends up repealing that/delaying it.  Many of the companies cannot produce EV's at an affordable cost.

 

GM - admitted that they won't be making a profit from EV's until 2025

Ford - admitted they aren't making money on the Mach-e at the moment.

 

The cost to produce an EV at the moment is just too high, and the scaling of the natural resources isn't in place yet.  I think what will happen is that a lot of car companies will start going out of business or raise the red flag and the government is going to step in and delay or bail out the companies.

 

Maybe but i'd be cautious of assuming as such. Some of the nations involved are pretty serious about sticking to their CO2 goals, and wouldn;t be shy about voicing their displeasure with the rest. That said your probably right that it's going to drive some big shakups in the car manufacturing industry as some names disappear and other appear. It's also not like it will take vans and the like off the market, thats supposed to come in at a later date.

[Uttamattamakin]

Quote

The team even proposed a solution to the problem: use a slightly more expensive, but also more stable, plastic compound.

This right here was probably known to the companies that make batteries for a long time.  The thing is to them having devices with batteries that last longer and are more reliable is not a good business model.  There is strong precedent for this.  Consider the lightbulb. 

 

 

One could say well now they are making LED lights that will last sooo long.  While it is true said LED's will last longer they can degrade over time just like anything.   "What does this have to do with batteries"? 

Think about it.  If you had a phone or car or other device with a high quality battery that would charge and discharge 95% as well at 5-10 years old as it does at 1-2 years that is great for you and terrible for those who make the batteries.  For the people who make them it is better business to charge more for a cheaper battery that last a couple of years and degrades to an annoying level of unreliability after that. 

EE is what a lot of people here love but it is not the answer to every issue when it comes to tech.  Human factors like corporate and personal greed and self interest are a big part of everything that goes on. 

[mdk777]

7 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

For the people who make them it is better business to charge more for a cheaper battery that last a couple of years and degrades to an annoying level of unreliability after that. 

I'm always amazed at the mass sales of disposable AA batteries in the stores.

 

Rechargeable batteries have been around for YEARS...yet you see all these AA and AAA 60 battery packs in the store.

 

Your LED light bulb is an interesting case study. There was a huge boom in production, but now that everyone has made the change, there has been a real reduction in the production/research and reliability. There just isn't enough business and margin to keep some of the most reputable players in business.

 

Now I have  ARC WHITE street light that blind you with oversaturation  6000k light , slowly turning to purple because of the crap quality.

I may have to buy a bb gun to shoot them out with.

 

 

  

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

This right here was probably known to the companies that make batteries for a long time.  The thing is to them having devices with batteries that last longer and are more reliable is not a good business model.  There is strong precedent for this.  Consider the lightbulb. 

The problem is the original lightbulb was designed during a time before electricity was common. Many companies can produce an incandescent lightbulb, but at the end of the day, it was a tungsten filament inside a vacuum. Carbon could be used, it just would have a different color profile, but has technical problems that result in it using twice as much energy. Incandescent lightbulbs are literately just a short circuit resulting in light and heat.

 

LED's, don't do that.

 

And while it may be a conspiracy that battery manufacturers have a vested interest in disposable batteries, "researchable" batteries, NiCad, NiMH, and so forth never had the right voltage profiles, and had "memory effects" that resulted in them being very expensive to use over disposable batteries, and were much worse for the environment. Remember, pretty much everything throws dead batteries in their residential garbage, they don't recycle them because they have no incentive to.

 

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

One could say well now they are making LED lights that will last sooo long.  While it is true said LED's will last longer they can degrade over time just like anything.   "What does this have to do with batteries"? 

I've bought 5 LED bubs in total in the last 13 years. The apartment I moved into, the first thing I did was as each bulb burned out (which were all incandescent cause the landlord didn't care.) There are 6 lightbulbs in my apartment, 3 in the main area, 1 in the kitchen and 2 in the bathroom. So the first LED bulb to die was the one closest to the bathroom, which also happened to be the last one purchased (A Philips bulb which looks like an older version of the enduraLED) The second one burned out this year, after being in service for 12 years. The first one I replaced, still working.

 

The move towards smartbulbs has me annoyed though. I could not find a "good" LED bulb when that second bulb burned out so I was like, "oh, let me get one of those smartbulbs instead", so what happens when these gawddamn bulbs wifi or bluetooth is connected to a newer router? oh, I guess you have to downgrade your entire network so these now, "old" bulbs connect to them.

 

And don't laugh, this is literately what people had to do with the Nintendo DS, 3DS and Wii. If you wanted to keep those on your network, you had to have 802.11b WEP mode.

 

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

EE is what a lot of people here love but it is not the answer to every issue when it comes to tech.  Human factors like corporate and personal greed and self interest are a big part of everything that goes on. 

 

The thing is, with battery tech, small changes (like PET tape) may account to $2 over the entire production run. When they run out of tape, they source more, they likely have years of it sourced. But if they throw out $1000 worth of tape to replace it with $1000 of new tape, some bean counter is gonna go "no, use what you have first"

 

So assuming the industry knows about this research, they will be asking Chinese battery manufacturers to to stop using PET tape. That may lead to a temporary increase in battery failures as some battery manufacturers don't understand, and instead use something else with Polyethene in it, when it needs to something else entirely.

 

 

[mr moose]

16 hours ago, Mihle said:

 

I tried to search for average distance driven lifetime of petrol cars, different articles gave different answers, but most of them were around 220-320k km somewhere, you can search for yourself if you want to.

 

16 hours ago, Mihle said:

Worth noting that single car example is not representative for the average ofc, but that is true with EVs too. Distance driven probably matter more than its age.

 

My cars all have over 340K on the clocks and going strong.  I fully expect to get half a million K's out of my cars before I have to replace anything serious enough to warrant writing the car off.  I could even rebuild the engine and replace half the drive train for far less environmental impact than replacing a battery pack on even a small EV.  This of course is not talking about CO2 output for driving, that I fully agree EV's should be good (assuming they are used in a place that generates from Nuclear).

[mr moose]

13 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

and i thought mine was old when i got my 2009 golf with only 110k km on it

after six month it now sits at 190k km, getting a lot use from it, and it cost me less than macbook

One of my 2000's models was $1500, it was in a frontal impact with serious damage, I replaced quite a bit of the front end and did some serious body work.  Now it drives like new and total cost including insurance, registration and a handful of new tools required to do the job and it only owes me $3000.     That's one less brand new car that needs to be made and one less set of batteries to fuck up little kids in lithium mines.

[suicidalfranco]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

One of my 2000's models was $1500, it was in a frontal impact with serious damage, I replaced quite a bit of the front end and did some serious body work.  Now it drives like new and total cost including insurance, registration and a handful of new tools required to do the job and it only owes me $3000.     That's one less brand new car that needs to be made and one less set of batteries to fuck up little kids in lithium mines.

In my case as a first beater car, kinda took the chance and try to learn doing DIY maintenance with it.

Kinda amazed at the amount I'm saving and how relatively simple things are to do. And the argument that ICE car loose their advantage once you start factoring in cost of maintenance just flies out of the window.

Keep in mind I have a bifuel engine (gas and LPG), things I've done so far:

- clean the butterfly valve

- clean the LPG injectors

- replace gas and water filter

And the scariest of them all as many lead you out to believe:

- oil change

[jagdtigger]

15 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Nah Europe is investing hard in renewable energy and general buildout.

Thats the issue though, renewables are way too unpredictable to base any critical infrastructure on them.... (windless nights aint that unusual for example, now what? stupid idiots shut off nuclear so the only option is burning things...)

[Ripred]

I blame California, they had a good thing going with the red car, that could have been expanded on to create something great ohwell 

 

I like how ev's weren't even a twinkle in the eye, battery research and development made no meaningful improvements for decade's until Elon sold the first Tesla, now these days everyone gives him crap lol...ahwell Nikola was shit on his whole life also and we wouldn't live in the world we know today without him, if most of us monkey's were born in the stone age we'd probably never come up with the wheel, much less the average person have a good understanding of these technologies or environmental issues, If any of us actually gave a squirt about the environment we wouldn't allow our energy and most poisonous manufacturing processes to be outsourced to countries that practice ZERO environmental/moral/ethical regulations 

[wanderingfool2]

53 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Thats the issue though, renewables are way too unpredictable to base any critical infrastructure on them.... (windless nights aint that unusual for example, now what? stupid idiots shut off nuclear so the only option is burning things...)

Probabilities and statistics (local vs global scale), matched with battery solutions.

 

It will always be windy somewhere, if turbines are distributed amount multiple areas the chances of a "windless" night drops down as it's always windy somewhere.  If you have enough "renewables" then you can have almost a certain amount of a baseline (as areas that aren't windy will be countered by areas that are).

 

Then introduce battery to grid options, and vehicles that have that option and you pretty much could get a lot of it resolved.  Add in a bit of nuclear to get the baseline amount of power and you now have a grid that is more robust than relying on pure fossil fuels.

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

stupid idiots shut off nuclear so the only option is burning things

italian resident here, you know what's better then that?

spend millions in building a nuclear power plant then decommission it the year after because of a referendum where we got asked if we want nuclear the year the plant was ready to operate.

Things you can achieve we a good fud campaign. And people wonder why i put eco activists in the same pit as the bad guys from ww2, terrorists and cultists.

 

16 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

matched with battery solutions

i.e. more child slavery, african exploitation and land destruction so that i can feel good about my fake sense of protecting the environment

[jagdtigger]

23 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Probabilities and statistics (local vs global scale), matched with battery solutions.

Economically unviable.... (especially if you take into account the amount of e-waste it would generate)

28 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It will always be windy somewhere, if turbines are distributed amount multiple areas the chances of a "windless" night drops down as it's always windy somewhere.  If you have enough "renewables" then you can have almost a certain amount of a baseline (as areas that aren't windy will be countered by areas that are).

You are overly optimistic with that, doubt wind farms are getting built so that it can serve the national need plus some parts europe.... Not to mention the price differential between national energy and "borrowed" energy.

[Obioban]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:26 AM, mdk777 said:

I drive all my cars on average for the last 20 years up to 200k miles(often more). or 322k km

 

I also drive 500 to 700 miles a day on a regular basis (sales territory)

 

Just saying, it will be a long long time before charging is fast enough to make EV worth it for me.

You're use is very atypical, but even so... that sounds like a great reason TO buy an EV to me. Fast charge over lunch (so it adds no time to your journey) and do your drive for $15 of electrons instead of $80 of gas. Repeat daily, and add in lack of oil changes, cooling systems, diff fluid, trans fluid, brakes, clutches, bla bla bla-- you'd save some real money.

 

My daily commute used to be 120 miles a day. Going from doing it an an ICEV  (admittedly an M5) to an EV saved me $700/month, all in (less upkeep needed for EVs (just tires and wiper blades), no gas)... and, whenever I got stuck in a traffic jam, letting the car drive itself is much more relaxing. Plus the silence of an EV is just nice, when you're sitting in the car on the highway for long periods of time (though not at all nice when bombing a back road).

 

... it was nice that my 120 miles a day meant I never had to think about public charging. I'd just wake up every morning to a fully charged car and plug it in when I got home (whereas before that I was buying gas 2-3 times a week... which was a PITA).

[mdk777]

36 minutes ago, Obioban said:

Fast charge over lunch (so it adds no time to your journey)

Maybe some day. However, I don't think the availability of charging stations , much less high speed charging stations is anywhere like what you envision in the Midwest.

Down time would be hours, many hours if you count the time required to route to and from the charging stations off my intended course of travel. 

 

Yup, it would be great for my wife who has a 5 mile commute.

 

Yes, we just passed in the US a (how many trillion?) dollar Bill to fund things like charging stations.

Yet, 

I lived by a by-pass in Pittsburg....It took 30 years from inception to completion.

High speed rail has been funded in CA....from 1996 to now....no one is riding...

They passed funding for a SMALL(like 6 miles) section of I35 hear in Austin to be revised....it is only scheduled to be done in 8 years....my guess is more than 10 if not 12.

 

My point? Universal high speed charging stations sounds great.

 

If I live to see, I will be amazed. 

[Ripred]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

italian resident here, you know what's better then that?

spend millions in building a nuclear power plant then decommission it the year after because of a referendum where we got asked if we want nuclear the year the plant was ready to operate.

Things you can achieve we a good fud campaign. And people wonder why i put eco activists in the same pit as the bad guys from ww2, terrorists and cultists.

 

i.e. more child slavery, african exploitation and land destruction so that i can feel good about my fake sense of protecting the environment

 Basically what I was getting at...Everyone crys about the wrongs of the past but are complacent, turning a blind eye to todays horrors, we scream about pollution but shun the technology that can save us, patting ourselves on the back when we get our trash in the correct recycling bin but never thinking to check where it goes after the truck leaves...Shame

 

"there is a greater evil with which we must fear most and that is the indifference of good men"

~Monsignor - Boondoxsaints~